Westminster Politics

TwoSheds

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Your right, I can 'waffle' with the best of you... just saying I can't explain why that particular oyster card isn't included, is there perhaps some suspected 'scam' going on with these cards... can they be 'adjusted/forged' in some way...etc.? I just don't know sorry!
However, it still does not negate the fact that people should be able to prove who they are when voting, proving who you are is something increasingly everyone is expected to do in many areas of life, its becoming a fact of life.
It's the exact same card and method of acquiring it as the 60+ one. You are engaging in mental gymnastics to excuse voter repression. Even if you agreed with the need for ID, there are no excuses for deliberately favouring older voters in it's implementation.

Laughing about it it like it's sending an apprentice on a wild goose chase is pretty glib. It'd be much more like stealing the apprentice's pay cheque and saying "hahahahaaaa come back next month you little oik when you've acquired your FREE certificate of pay cheque authenticity to prove who you are!"

Which would of course be a crime.
 

Fingeredmouse

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Your right, I can 'waffle' with the best of you... just saying I can't explain why that particular oyster card isn't included, is there perhaps some suspected 'scam' going on with these cards... can they be 'adjusted/forged' in some way...etc.? I just don't know sorry!
However, it still does not negative the fact that people should be able to prove who they are when voting, proving who you are is something increasingly everyone is expected to do in many areas of life, its becoming a fact of life.
That isn't the issue though, is it? The point, and I'm sure you can see this, is that they have chosen to introduce ID to vote, whether you think that is reasonable or not and leaving aside the fact that voter fraud is close to non existent, with a list of acceptable IDs that is clearly and undeniably skewed towards the older in society. You seem to genuinely not think this Government has done this to suppress the group most likely to vote against them, despite their track record of sharp practice and clear contempt for democracy, and keep on calling people who may be disenfranchised lazy and uninformed. All this, despite you, yourself, having been proven to not be fully informed and you are actually quite passionate about such matters. Can you not see?
 

GDaly95

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I always think back to this tweet. Think it's probably quite a good assessment of things.

I don't know if the likes of Patel or Bravermann were taught at a young age that they were the 'good immigrants' and the 'bad ones' were ruining for them or what. No idea. But I think if you were to delve into their personal history and upbringing you'd strike something along those lines.
 

WPMUFC

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I always think back to this tweet. Think it's probably quite a good assessment of things.

I don't know if the likes of Patel or Bravermann were taught at a young age that they were the 'good immigrants' and the 'bad ones' were ruining for them or what. No idea. But I think if you were to delve into their personal history and upbringing you'd strike something along those lines.
i was just thinking of that tweet after reading the Bravermann tweet. O'Brien copped a lot of heat from the twitter bleeding hearts telling him his comments "were just as bad" as hers. They will never learn, the authortarian right will always go further in rhetoric when they are unchallenged. Sunak should sack her for that comment alone but it will be endorsed by all the "right" people. Wouldn't be surprised if there is a big Daily Mail cover story about it.
 
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Frosty

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I always think back to this tweet. Think it's probably quite a good assessment of things.

I don't know if the likes of Patel or Bravermann were taught at a young age that they were the 'good immigrants' and the 'bad ones' were ruining for them or what. No idea. But I think if you were to delve into their personal history and upbringing you'd strike something along those lines.
I think this is the survivor fallacy.

They may have made it through hard work, but the flaw is that only a few people in their position could ever succeed. But instead of changing the rules so that the system leads to more success for more people, the lesson they have learned is that everyone who failed clearly didn't work hard enough.

It also allows them to ignore all the familial advantages that they had that helped them succeed too.

Not that such beliefs are constrained to children of immigrants. Plenty of white British people believe it too.

Great. We can look forward to more baseless racial attacks on brown people.
I mean Starmer will have to respond. Maybe with a policy stating all teenagers need to join Combat 18 to counter the brown grooming gangs?
 

Maticmaker

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It's the exact same card and method of acquiring it as the 60+ one. You are engaging in mental gymnastics to excuse voter repression. Even if you agreed with the need for ID, there are no excuses for deliberately favouring older voters in it's implementation.

Laughing about it it like it's sending an apprentice on a wild goose chase is pretty glib. It'd be much more like stealing the apprentice's pay cheque and saying "hahahahaaaa come back next month you little oik when you've acquired your FREE certificate of pay cheque authenticity to prove who you are!"

Which would of course be a crime.
Are any young people who are eligible to vote actually being prevented (this does not mean being inconvenienced) from doing so?
No..so its not voter repression is it, its at best voter inconvenience...a contrived inconvenience maybe, but not repression?
Why would the government choose to do this and insert this 'inconvenience'? You say because lots of young people would not vote for the present government, but what about those young people that would vote for the Government, wouldn't it be 'cutting noses off' to spite faces?

That isn't the issue though, is it? The point, and I'm sure you can see this, is that they have chosen to introduce ID to vote, whether you think that is reasonable or not and leaving aside the fact that voter fraud is close to non existent, with a list of acceptable IDs that is clearly and undeniably skewed towards the older in society. You seem to genuinely not think this Government has done this to suppress the group most likely to vote against them, despite their track record of sharp practice and clear contempt for democracy, and keep on calling people who may be disenfranchised lazy and uninformed. All this, despite you, yourself, having been proven to not be fully informed and you are actually quite passionate about such matters. Can you not see?
This an obvious occurrence, the longer people live the wider the range of ID is available to them, its nothing to do with being 'skewed'.

Figures from past elections (where no ID as such has been required on the day) tend to show that many young people are, perhaps at that time in their life not that interested in politics or in voting. I am quite sure that at the next GE those young people who are interested will make sure they do vote, whatever their choice is and make sure they are meeting the requirements so that they can do so, so surely this flies in the face of what you are insisting are the governments reasons for making life more difficult for young people to vote. That is the rate of information flow via younger people is ten times faster maybe even a hundred times fast, now there is social media etc. I would hazard a guess that there would be more older people, who know less about this change, than their younger counterparts.

I appreciate that you and others on this site believe all this is a 'nasty Tory trick' to deprive young people of their right to vote, if it is, then it has the potential to go horribly wrong.... wouldn't you say?
 

africanspur

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Your right, I can 'waffle' with the best of you... just saying I can't explain why that particular oyster card isn't included, is there perhaps some suspected 'scam' going on with these cards... can they be 'adjusted/forged' in some way...etc.? I just don't know sorry!
However, it still does not negate the fact that people should be able to prove who they are when voting, proving who you are is something increasingly everyone is expected to do in many areas of life, its becoming a fact of life.
Yep that well known 18-30 oyster or 16-25 railcard scam. We're all in on it, there's millions to be made!
 

TwoSheds

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Are any young people who are eligible to vote actually being prevented (this does not mean being inconvenienced) from doing so?
No..so its not voter repression is it, its at best voter inconvenience...a contrived inconvenience maybe, but not repression?
Why would the government choose to do this and insert this 'inconvenience'? You say because lots of young people would not vote for the present government, but what about those young people that would vote for the Government, wouldn't it be 'cutting noses off' to spite faces?



This an obvious occurrence, the longer people live the wider the range of ID is available to them, its nothing to do with being 'skewed'.

Figures from past elections (where no ID as such has been required on the day) tend to show that many young people are, perhaps at that time in their life not that interested in politics or in voting. I am quite sure that at the next GE those young people who are interested will make sure they do vote, whatever their choice is and make sure they are meeting the requirements so that they can do so, so surely this flies in the face of what you are insisting are the governments reasons for making life more difficult for young people to vote. That is the rate of information flow via younger people is ten times faster maybe even a hundred times fast, now there is social media etc. I would hazard a guess that there would be more older people, who know less about this change, than their younger counterparts.

I appreciate that you and others on this site believe all this is a 'nasty Tory trick' to deprive young people of their right to vote, if it is, then it has the potential to go horribly wrong.... wouldn't you say?
If they turn up on the day to vote with no / the wrong ID because they are ill informed then their vote won't count. Their vote will have been repressed. It's not rocket science.

And no it doesn't really have the potential to go horribly wrong for the Tories because it's a numbers game and they've stacked the odds in their favour. It's a well established tactic in the US and other malfunctioning democracies around the world if you want to game the system towards right wing / incumbent governments where polls show older people favour them compared to the young. If you don't understand that they're risking losing one vote to discount 2 of the opposition's votes then please don't ever go to a casino or the bookies, they'll have the shirt off your back.
 

africanspur

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I always think back to this tweet. Think it's probably quite a good assessment of things.

I don't know if the likes of Patel or Bravermann were taught at a young age that they were the 'good immigrants' and the 'bad ones' were ruining for them or what. No idea. But I think if you were to delve into their personal history and upbringing you'd strike something along those lines.
I think that's perhaps a little simplistic. I think some people have a tendency to lump all immigrants or non white people together as if they should all be allies. This ignores the fact that,just like white people, there are a whole range of viewpoints in there. On top of that, there are intricacies between how those racial groups may view others, as well as how well integrated (for whatever reasons) one group may be compared to another.

My own feeling is that Indian and afro Caribbean origin immigrants often have the easiest time integrating and being accepted into general culture in this country, part of which I imagine may be to do with acceptability of alcohol intake etc.

There's also traditionally not exactly been much love lost between the Indian and Pakistani groups in this country for instance. I can totally believe that Braverman, born in this country, parents coming under a ' legal scheme' from Africa, married to a white man and who (unlike sunak at least) has never shown an inkling of being interested in portraying any aspect of her south Asian origin/ culture, feels absolutely no affinity whatsoever with Muslim Pakistani origin Brits and may indeed feel quite a bit more acrimony towards them than the average white brit might.
 

africanspur

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Oh dear don't think its a good idea to confirm it on a open site like this... just adds to delusions ;)
Probably about as believable as genuinely thinking there's a real reason to block those from being used while allowing the use of the 60+ oyster, as as your faux ignorance at what those reasons may be eh!? :D

Keep it up though. Guess you stop the forum from being a general echo chamber, I'll give you that at least.
 

Maticmaker

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If you don't understand that they're risking losing one vote to discount 2 of the opposition's votes then please don't ever go to a casino or the bookies, they'll have the shirt off your back.
Thought it would be more like discount 1 to lose 5 or 6, but you know better!

They nearly did...long ago when I was young and foolish ;)
 

Sweet Square

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She’s the brown, female face of white supremacy. She’s the acceptable face for the absolute worst ideas Tufton/Koch came come up with.

Imagine if rather than her or Priti Patel, they had Dominic Raab or Grant Schapps trying to push these policies through and pushing this rhetoric.
There seems to be a tendency of right wings government to have women put forward the most cruel policies but I’m not sure it’s about white supremacy though.
 

Pexbo

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There seems to be a tendency of right wings government to have women put forward the most cruel policies but I’m not sure it’s about white supremacy though.
She didn’t choose herself for the role. She was hand picked, for a reason.
 

Sweet Square

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She didn’t choose herself for the role. She was hand picked, for a reason.
True but she is also a reactionary. She isn’t from Pakistan and her parents aren’t so I’m guessing she believes the shite she is talking. While also thinking it’s a voter winner.

Britain has just got its first non white PM and changed immigration policy from white europeans to the rest the world(Immigration to the UK is still going up), imo the white supremacy argument doesn’t really hold.
 

Pexbo

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True but she is also a reactionary. She isn’t from Pakistan and her parents aren’t so I’m guessing she believes the shite she is talking. While also thinking it’s a voter winner.

Britain has just got its first non white PM and changed immigration policy from white europeans to the rest the world(Immigration to the UK is still going up), imo the white supremacy argument doesn’t really hold.
I’m not saying she doesn’t believe everything she’s doing, same for Sunak. At the end of the day, the UK has always been more classist than it has racist and that will have impacted Sunak and Bravaman’s lived experiences but I’m absolutely certain that some of the dark money that she’s a useful idiot for comes in from the same eugenics loving cnuts that throw money behind culture war champions like Yaxley-Lennon, Farage, Fox, Tice, Grimes, Hartley-Brewer and the list goes on.
 

Bert_

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She’s the brown, female face of white supremacy. She’s the acceptable face for the absolute worst ideas Tufton/Koch came come up with.

Imagine if rather than her or Priti Patel, they had Dominic Raab or Grant Schapps trying to push these policies through and pushing this rhetoric.
Seems to be the latest tactic by the tories to hide their racism/pandering to racists. If any white politician (or any not south east asian) said what Braverman said in that interview then they would rightly be hounded out out of politics for life.
 

Adisa

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It’s an indictment of the populace that these no marks believe this is the best way to galvanize support.
 

Smores

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It’s an indictment of the populace that these no marks believe this is the best way to galvanize support.
I think its more to do with their desperation. With Labour going right they either have to maintain the same ground as Labour and argue on competence or they create other differentiators I.e. culture wars.

There's always a sizeable chunk of the public who can be pushed right.
 

Adisa

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I think its more to do with their desperation. With Labour going right they either have to maintain the same ground as Labour and argue on competence or they create other differentiators I.e. culture wars.

There's always a sizeable chunk of the public who can be pushed right.
Of course they are desperate but it is an easy ploy for them because it works. Racial bigotry cuts across the political spectrum in this country.
There are swathes of traditional labour voters that believe this shit. We need to accept that a significant portion of this country is full of deplorable.
 

ThehatchetMan

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@africanspur this is why I said last year that having the first Asian prime minister in this country isn't something to celebrate for your friends son who is from a similar background. I know you agreed with me in the sense that Sunak is a prick but that it should still be recognised as something monumental for the Asian community in the sense that it shows to them and other minorities that anyone can reach the top position in office.

But what better way for the torys to fuel racism than to get British Asian ministers to push false claims about people from similar ethnicities. Can just see all the racists frothing at the mouth right now "Of course it's true. Rishi and Suella are Asian, why would they lie? They're from similar backgrounds so they'll know better than anyone". (I know Sunak is British Indian but the average British racist doesn't distinguish between Indian and Pakistani.

Bunch of racist self serving entitled pricks with no shame at all. Embarrassing.
 

Smores

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Of course they are desperate but it is an easy ploy for them because it works. Racial bigotry cuts across the political spectrum in this country.
There are swathes of traditional labour voters that believe this shit. We need to accept that a significant portion of this country is full of deplorable.
Yeah I agree, I more meant those people can be led from minor bigotry to full on nazi views. They'll always be immoral people it's the prevalent discourse that decides how far right they end up. Sadly our politicians often set it and it's easier to punch down.

It's why I very much dislike Labour putting out right wing messaging. They'll push the Tories and the country right in doing so.
 

ThehatchetMan

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Yeah I agree, I more meant those people can be led from minor bigotry to full on nazi views. They'll always be immoral people it's the prevalent discourse that decides how far right they end up. Sadly our politicians often set it and it's easier to punch down.

It's why I very much dislike Labour putting out right wing messaging. They'll push the Tories and the country right in doing so.
That's probably because Starmer is right wing himself. Left wing labour went after the last election.

We now choose between red coloured torys or blue coloured torys.