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2016-17 Performances


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MThomas

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Look it's far too easy to go personal, so I won't go there.
You clearly have a problem. So :lol: back.
Make up your mind.

You say my comments are personal opinions (on a football player) then go on about my username. Check.

You talk about stats and analysis, yet all you've replied, are the same personal opinions from yourself. Check.

I've told you about the different variations and types of movement that we can measure stats or take different observations on. You've completely ignored that and are only concerned with one aspect, only to say I'm the one, who's missed the point. Check.

I made a very simple comment, countless other people in this thread have made yet you seem to bang on about it's not true, without actually saying anything concrete. What is exactly is your thought, on the one off-the-cuff comment, a lot of people make about Martial's movement?

Come on mate, engage in this light discussion a bit maturely. It's bewildering you've gone to insults after a 2-3 post exchange when we're not even talking about anything controversial. :confused:
I said i find it funny that you call yourself critical analysis, while all your posts are personal opinions that have nothing to do with any analysis whatsoever.

If you have something you can measure stats on, then bring it on. Why not show it instead of banging on about what you see on the tv. According to you, his movement isn't very good and he needs to make himself more available. Yet he's frequently one of the most used passing combinations and received passes position shows him all over the place. Yet according to you he needs to make himself more available, because you've seen it on the telly. Why not take a couple of minutes and look on Lingards position according to opposition and think about why it changes so much depending on who we play.

 

Sandikan

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Having a very stop start season indeed.

Plenty of time for him to really put the overdrive in this season though
 

Eddy_JukeZ

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The sophomore slump.

Hopefully can stamp his place in the team soon. We're better with him, but he's been hit and miss this season.
 

Jacky Quacky

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Has to start against Hull, hes done nothing wrong so I dont know why hes not starting.

Seriously Mata is shite on the wing, Rashford is just not a winger, Lingard is average and so is Rooney.

He played alright vs Liverpool. He doesnt deserve to be dropped.

Anyway if he were to leave in the summer a valid replacement would be Griezmann.
 

YouOnlyLiveTwice

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It would be absolutely mental to sell him and i can't see why Mourinho would.

He is a potential top 5 attacking player. If that is as a striker or left forward i'm still not sure, but he will be up there.
 

criticalanalysis

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Make up your mind.

I said i find it funny that you call yourself critical analysis, while all your posts are personal opinions that have nothing to do with any analysis whatsoever.

If you have something you can measure stats on, then bring it on. Why not show it instead of banging on about what you see on the tv. According to you, his movement isn't very good and he needs to make himself more available. Yet he's frequently one of the most used passing combinations and received passes position shows him all over the place. Yet according to you he needs to make himself more available, because you've seen it on the telly. Why not take a couple of minutes and look on Lingards position according to opposition and think about why it changes so much depending on who we play.

My response was finding it genuinely baffling that when I replied to your point, you tried to 'generic laughing icon' it off. Then you went all personal. Don't try to justify that because you 'found my user name funny' :confused:. Anybody following our exchange can be witness to your immature responses.

I understand your point about received passes and I replied that there's more to movement than being on the ball. This is what you don't get. I'm going to get personal now because I've tried to present a neutral discussion but your tunnel vision is clouding your judgement.

I don't use any of the stats websites but the few times I have ventured, I didn't see the categories that I've mentioned. Namely, as I said things like:

off the shoulder runs, seeing a pass 1-3 transitions before the play, channel runs, runs inside of defenders, outside of defenders, continued runs (making space for the player on the ball), sprints when standing up defenders, sprints when running alongside defenders with the ball or off etc etc...
You talk about my comments being personal opinions but everything on this discussion is, including yours. Movement is not a stat and your picture shows only one aspect of it, yet you've based your entire argument on this sole point. That's fine because that breeds debate but you're presented one stat and then try to come across as all encompassing and definitive, when all you've done is find something to shape your singular logic. The very definition of a personal opinion.

The funniest thing is, I originally said, only half the problem is Martial as I clearly realised he needs helps from team mates. I wasn't even out right slating him but you're countering as if I'm saying something ridiculous.
 

MThomas

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My response was finding it genuinely baffling that when I replied to your point, you tried to 'generic laughing icon' it off. Then you went all personal. Don't try to justify that because you 'found my user name funny' :confused:. Anybody following our exchange can be witness to your immature responses.

I understand your point about received passes and I replied that there's more to movement than being on the ball. This is what you don't get. I'm going to get personal now because I've tried to present a neutral discussion but your tunnel vision is clouding your judgement.

I don't use any of the stats websites but the few times I have ventured, I didn't see the categories that I've mentioned. Namely, as I said things like:

You talk about my comments being personal opinions but everything on this discussion is, including yours. Movement is not a stat and your picture shows only one aspect of it, yet you've based your entire argument on this sole point. That's fine because that breeds debate but you're presented one stat and then try to come across as all encompassing and definitive, when all you've done is find something to shape your singular logic. The very definition of a personal opinion.

The funniest thing is, I originally said, only half the problem is Martial as I clearly realised he needs helps from team mates. I wasn't even out right slating him but you're countering as if I'm saying something ridiculous.
To get the ball you have to move around, to get the ball over the pitch, you have to be in movement. When he is one of the most used passing combos on the pitch, it certainly doesn't indicate that his movement is dross. I haven't based an entire argument around anything. I've proven 3 things, where two of those things are pretty fecking obvious.

1: Martial moves around, a lot. See passes received.
2: It depends on opposition. See Lingard against Sunderland vs Lingards two matches against West Ham.
3: It depends on defensive responsibility and who you are playing with.

How many times haven't we seen Pogba knock one over the defenders, only to look up and see that Zlatan never started the run ?

It happens. Players can't constantly make runs. It doesn't mean that the movement isn't good enough.

You claimed the following
I've told you about the different variations and types of movement that we can measure stats or take different observations on
So do you have any measured stats to bring up ?
 

Jazz

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Club needs to pay close attention. Have no doubt if Martial is pushed out he will go elsewhere and be dynamite. Anyway, maybe Jose is using some tough love technique with him. He did select him for the Liverpool match, so it can't be he doesn't rate him. Maybe Martial needs to adjust his attitude and just get on with it. Anyway, let's hope we see him against Hull, and that he performs if he's selected.
 

Damien

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Club needs to pay close attention. Have no doubt if Martial is pushed out he will go elsewhere and be dynamite. Anyway, maybe Jose is using some tough love technique with him. He did select him for the Liverpool match, so it can't be he doesn't rate him. Maybe Martial needs to adjust his attitude and just get on with it. Anyway, let's hope we see him against Hull, and that he performs if he's selected.
Just weird. Wasn't even like Martial was totally poor during the Liverpool game. Did well given he was triple marked and no help from Darmian. Instead he ended up getting taken off and dropped the following game.

Some will say he's been shite all season but that just isn't true. Treatment is a bit harsh leaving him out against teams he's got a decent record against (West Ham & Stoke).

Hopefully there is a valid reason as to why he didn't play today. Martial is a crucial player for us and I cannot fathom why Jose would want to drive him away.
No injury or illness. Think he just prefers Rashford overall. Despite starting Martial against Liverpool, Rashford tends to be the preferred sub option.

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co...chester-united-mourinho-martial-rojo-12488586

Mourinho also confirmed that Marcos Rojo was left out because of illness. Despite not being available to play, the Argentinian defender was pictured in the away end with United fans.

Mourinho said: "He was not feeling well. Martial was not selected."
Our bench and subs used: Romero, Darmian, Lingard, Carrick, Schweinsteiger, Rooney, Rashford
 

Irrational.

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Martial scored goals in the double figures when he played up front for us last season. I'd say his main strength is his finishing and playing off the last man. It's not rocket science.
 

amolbhatia50k

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Jose is making terrible use of our biggest talent. He better not feck this up.
 

MounchesterUtd

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How about we actually let Jose discipline our players the way he sees fit? Granted, the man doesn't have a perfect record in this regard, but one of the things that bugged me about the Moyes and LVG regimes is the presence of player power. We finally have a man that should command respect from his players, lets' stand behind him and give our support.
 

criticalanalysis

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To get the ball you have to move around, to get the ball over the pitch, you have to be in movement. When he is one of the most used passing combos on the pitch, it certainly doesn't indicate that his movement is dross.
That could mean what you're saying but at the same time, to me it just says he's getting the ball a lot. Yes you can credit his positioning and movement, but that's just the virtue of our style.

Every single one of our players see the ball a lot during games. We don't penetrate or play through the middle. That might be a Mourinho thing but clearly, Carrick and Herrera and even Pogba have been tasked with recycling possession and closing attacks. Thus their only option is to pass to the wide players, hence why Martial, Valencia, Miki and even Darmian (whenever he plays) see the ball the majority of the time.

I haven't based an entire argument around anything. I've proven 3 things, where two of those things are pretty fecking obvious.

1: Martial moves around, a lot. See passes received.
2: It depends on opposition. See Lingard against Sunderland vs Lingards two matches against West Ham.
3: It depends on defensive responsibility and who you are playing with.
You haven't proven anything, those are your personal opinions based on a picture and two game samples (of which I will give you benefit of the doubt on) because Martial moving to receive a lot of passes does not mean good movement. Or rather I should say, it does not indicate he can not improve or vary his movement.

If I bring up those 'Carrick covers the most distance' stats, does that mean he's the most valuable player to us defensively? No, that just means he covers a lot of ground. Intensity of runs, tackles, interceptions, being on the front foot, making intelligent decisions, on and off the ball pressure etc are all things that should be taken into consideration. These are things when I mean variation.

It's the same for Martial.

How many times haven't we seen Pogba knock one over the defenders, only to look up and see that Zlatan never started the run ?

It happens. Players can't constantly make runs. It doesn't mean that the movement isn't good enough.

You claimed the following

So do you have any measured stats to bring up ?
Ibra is the poorest example of lack of movement in the squad because he is absolutely the worst due to age/playing style/position/natural instincts.

Of all the other forward players, I'm not saying they're better than Martial overall (far from it) but Rashford (raw penetration/channel running), Miki (central penetration/variation of play), Lingard (off the ball sprints/stretching of play and even Mata (timing of runs) offer something different and if harsh 'better'.

Again I've said I don't have stats because I don't think they exist and I'm not really bothered to find numbers on something everyone can see.

Look, Martial is legitimately our most talented player with huge potential and I wish to see him further forward instead of the wing. Whilst he's doing a 'job' on the wing, we can forgive inconsistent performances (especially with the lack of game time) but he shouldn't be given a pass on constructive criticism. We just hope for better/more varied movement on and off the ball.

If you still don't buy that then well we'll have to agree to disagree or why don't you make a poll and have a fun statistical (and entirely subjective) way to see what do the majority of posters here think because I assure you, my view is neither controversial or unpopular.
 

Mike09

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Will get another chance against Hull.
I would rather see him getting a chance in more important game against Stoke City than getting a chance against Hull city that we have won the leg 1 (2-0).

Poor decision from Jose for leaving him out for yesterday game. Never mind about not playing Carrick and Martial. Martial didn't even make our bench today. Martial vs Liverpool was so much better than Mata vs Liverpool and Stoke City.
 

Water Melon

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A talented kid with good dribbling skills and a silky touch, will get better while having some "meh" games from time to time, which is natural and needed for his further improvement. A good left back to help out on left wing would make Martial's life much more easy.
 

Ashley R1+O

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Martial scored goals in the double figures when he played up front for us last season. I'd say his main strength is his finishing and playing off the last man. It's not rocket science.
That is incorrect. According to transfermarkt he made 18 starts up front last season and scored only twice in those games.
 

Red_toad

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That is incorrect. According to transfermarkt he made 18 starts up front last season and scored only twice in those games.
If you define 2 as double figures, then correct :lol:.

Lad didn't work hard enough against Pool. No idea why fans want players selected in their potential. Martial is a sublime player on his day, but still needs to work for the team.
Find it very disturbing how many fans are blaming the manager for Martial underperforming.
 

Bobcat

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How about we actually let Jose discipline our players the way he sees fit? Granted, the man doesn't have a perfect record in this regard, but one of the things that bugged me about the Moyes and LVG regimes is the presence of player power. We finally have a man that should command respect from his players, lets' stand behind him and give our support.
Yeah, this. Except a few core players the rest of the spots are up for grab. If Martial plays it often means some of: Rashford, Lingaard, Mata, Miki, Rooney and Young wont play.

Martial is talented, but people seem to forget he still is very young.
 

khoazany

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Jose isn't the best manager for young player's development, that has been well observed on his previous clubs. For the match yesterday, I think simply because Jose preferred Lingard, Rooney and Rashford as the bench options that Martial wasn't selected. Shouldn't read too much on that.
 

Fracture90

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Lad didn't work hard enough against Pool. No idea why fans want players selected in their potential. Martial is a sublime player on his day, but still needs to work for the team.
He didn't work enough against Liverpool? Please do explain that?

You either select your players on form, or on potential or on proven quality, yes? Than how is Fellaini getting picked?
 

SteveW

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That's a feck up from Jose. He may well have made the difference. Not even having him on the bench was idiotic
 

Nighteyes

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This guy is a potential Ballon D'or winner. He's that good. I hope Jose and him can sort it out.
 

Pogue Mahone

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He didn't work enough against Liverpool? Please do explain that?

You either select your players on form, or on potential or on proven quality, yes? Than how is Fellaini getting picked?
Because he plays a different position, obviously. One with less options. And Carrick must have needed a break.

A few decent moments early on aside Martial could have played for hours in the Liverpool game and still not created or scorer anything. A rookie fullback had him in his pocket ffs.

We're fecking crying out for him or one of our other members of the front three to nail down a place the way, say, Jones or Hererra have done. The fact they haven't is killing us and is nobody's fault but their own. Even our Armenian saviour has gone to shite after looking so good when he got back into the team. This place will go mental when he also ends up dropped like Martial but he didn't help himself yesterday at all.
 

Dr Pavel

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Martial was our best player last season and certainly is our only attacking player who is exciting to watch. Unless he has attitude problem like Di Maria did, the manager should do everything he can to get him back to his best level. Taking away his number, taking him off early almost every match, and not selecting him aren't going to help.

If the situation doesn't change, he should think about switching club. This club is no longer the place for young players to develop.
 

Fracture90

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Because he plays a different position, obviously. One with less options. And Carrick must have needed a break.

A few decent moments early on aside Martial could have played for hours in the Liverpool game and still not created or scorer anything. A rookie fullback had him in his pocket ffs.

We're fecking crying out for him or one of our other members of the front three to nail down a place the way, say, Jones or Hererra have done. The fact they haven't is killing us and is nobody's fault but their own. Even our Armenian saviour has gone to shite after looking so good when he got back into the team. This place will go mental when he also ends up dropped like Martial but he didn't help himself yesterday at all.
I didn't mean that Fellaini took his position, obviously.

Idk if you had seen the Liverpool game but he was at all times surrounded with at least 3 Liverpool players, whilst getting no help whatsoever from Darmian or from Pogba who was dreadful.

Mourinho said it after the game that Martial was simply not picked even tho he was arguably our most dangerous player against Liverpool (their constant marking him with 3 players proves it) in favour of having Lingard, Rooney and Rashford on the bench and Mikhi starting on the left even tho he played his best games for us on the right.
 

RedChip

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I am Martial fan but the meltdown in here whenever he is rested is ridiculous. I realise the fear of losing him must influence a lot of the opinions on his lack of selection. But Jose also has to consider the here and now. Martial has had one excellent game this season, a couple of good ones and many iffy ones. On that basis, he has failed to convince Jose. Until he does, I expect he will be in and out of the team. I hope he has cottoned on to that reality and is working his bollocks off to nail down a place. And not crying into his mittens about being dropped.
 

Pogue Mahone

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I didn't mean that Fellaini took his position, obviously.

Idk if you had seen the Liverpool game but he was at all times surrounded with at least 3 Liverpool players, whilst getting no help whatsoever from Darmian or from Pogba who was dreadful.

Mourinho said it after the game that Martial was simply not picked even tho he was arguably our most dangerous player against Liverpool (their constant marking him with 3 players proves it) in favour of having Lingard, Rooney and Rashford on the bench and Mikhi starting on the left even tho he played his best games for us on the right.
That last paragraph adds nothing other than the bleeding obvious. Martial wasn't picked because he's not done enough to guarantee his place in the team. Tell me something I don't know...
 

Pexbo

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I think the Martial issues is probably related to his agent causing trouble and Mourinho is laying down the law.

It's disappointing if that's the case but it's important the players know who's boss.
 

Red_toad

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I am Martial fan but the meltdown in here whenever he is rested is ridiculous. I realise the fear of losing him must influence a lot of the opinions on his lack of selection. But Jose also has to consider the here and now. Martial has had one excellent game this season, a couple of good ones and many iffy ones. On that basis, he has failed to convince Jose. Until he does, I expect he will be in and out of the team. I hope he has cottoned on to that reality and is working his bollocks off to nail down a place. And not crying into his mittens about being dropped.

Wonder why Rooney is hated by many over his past antics over contracts and playing time.
Yet (possibly, as it's all speculation about how he feels) Martial gets upset in anyway shape or form and it's all someone else fault...
hes not yet good enough to be a nailed on starter, until such time he'll be rotated. Hardly like he's training with the under 21's.
 

MounchesterUtd

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Wonder why Rooney is hated by many over his past antics over contracts and playing time.
Yet (possibly, as it's all speculation about how he feels) Martial gets upset in anyway shape or form and it's all someone else fault...
hes not yet good enough to be a nailed on starter, until such time he'll be rotated. Hardly like he's training with the under 21's.
Love the boy but Martial is quickly becoming Rooney 2.0 here in the Caf. It's always never his fault now. Some people are even suggesting the board intervene with Mou and ask him to line Martial up? :wenger: the kid has had a start-stop season and has one FA Cup to his name, at least be like 08 Ronaldo before we start bending over for him.
 

Fracture90

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That last paragraph adds nothing other than the bleeding obvious. Martial wasn't picked because he's not done enough to guarantee his place in the team. Tell me something I don't know...
You're just twisting and bending it to find an excuse for Mourinho not even bringing him on the bench. I didn't say he deserved to be in starting 11? I'm saying he should have been on the bench if not in the first team.
 
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Pogue Mahone

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You're just twisting and bending it to find an excuse for Mourinho not even bringing him on the bench. I didn't say he deserved to be in starting 11, hello? I'm saying he should have been on the bench if not in the team.
Lingard and Rooney have different qualities (and thank feck Rooney made the bench) so it was a toss up between Martial and Rashford. After having such an impact against West Ham there's really no need to get bent out of shape over Rashford getting the nod.

Rooney's goal aside, it was Rashford that won the freekick we scored from and Lingard hit the bar. Terrible subs, right?
 
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