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SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)

Atze-Peng

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If only they had any sort of credibility left. (I am not saying the allegations aren't true, but that those raising the allegations have other reasons for doing so than thinking the alleged is really culpibable of anything substantial)
While I generally agree with that sentiment (which is why I used the word seems rather than a more absolute rhetoric), there have been enough observations and reports that it does seem rather credible.
We will see, if we get a proper investigation of if China tries to buy themselves out of it somehow. So far the EU doesn't seem too critical towards the Chinese government so I wouldn't put such shenanigans past them
 

Penna

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I flew through Paris for Christmas vacation and got terribly sick with breathing trouble and dry cough. Now I don't know what to think considering France apparently found a case predating that. Breathing issues aren't uncommon to me though, I have trouble when I go from low pollution areas to high pollution and I chalked it to that. I was also hugging and kissing my family and friends over the holidays and none of them got anything.
I think there's probably quite a few of us thinking back to just before all of this kicked off and remembering having what we thought was a chest or throat infection which may have a been a mild case of the virus (which would now be a blessing).
 

Wednesday at Stoke

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I think there's probably quite a few of us thinking back to just before all of this kicked off and remembering having what we thought was a chest or throat infection which may have a been a mild case of the virus (which would now be a blessing).
Yeah my employer was offering antibody tests a couple of weeks ago so I was curious to find out but in the end decided to stay home thinking its not worth taking the public transit and risking the virus to get a test for the virus.
 

King Eric 7

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Honestly I know ALOT of people treating this as a big holiday whilst being paid. Defer your mortgage at the same time and some people are up financially in the short term (I’m ignoring interest added to the mortgage). I have to say I wish I was furloughed as working 5 days a week at home on my own absolutely sucks. Even more so when so many colleagues received 100% pay for the last two months as work guaranteed this before the furlough scheme was announced. And they can work else where if they really wanted to.

The scheme was ill thought out in my view but they had to do something before the nation panicked about their financial position. The next step is that self employed should only make a claim ‘if’ they have been unable to work during the last 3 months. Who exactly is going to turn down 3 months taxable profit? And who from HMRC is going to check if they also earnt money in these 3 months whilst making a claim? There will be so many people taking advantage of this scheme that is going to cause a colossal amount of national debt.
I really can't see how HMRC can just change the rules for the self-employed. There will be a huge uproar given that they have stated that self-employed people can make a claim and continue to trade.
 

11101

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How many Valencia fans were there for the San Siro leg? And was/is Valencia (the town) disproportionately affected versus other towns / regions in Spain?

Same questions could be asked about Liverpool I suppose.

And why Bergamo hit so hard in the first place, is it a town that has a lot of traffic with Wuhan?
I don't know too much about Spain's spread. A third of the Valencia team did catch it on that trip despite being totally isolated from the general public the whole time.

Bergamo was hit hard in large part due to that game. 40,000 fans all mixing together in Milan when many of them unknowingly had it, and then they all took it back home with them.
 

Pogue Mahone

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I flew through Paris for Christmas vacation and got terribly sick with breathing trouble and dry cough. Now I don't know what to think considering France apparently found a case predating that. Breathing issues aren't uncommon to me though, I have trouble when I go from low pollution areas to high pollution and I chalked it to that. I was also hugging and kissing my family and friends over the holidays and none of them got anything.
I think there's probably quite a few of us thinking back to just before all of this kicked off and remembering having what we thought was a chest or throat infection which may have a been a mild case of the virus (which would now be a blessing).
It’s natural to think that but that would ignore the fact that people catch a load of different viruses in December/January ever year and they haven’t gone away. With barely a handful of confirmed cases of covid in Europe at that time the odds are tens of thousands to one against any individual picking it up.
 

Pagh Wraith

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40 people aged 14 to 17 met up for mass brawl in Nuremberg yesterday. Among other things, they were hitting each other with iron bars.

Does this count as a Corona party? And good thing they used iron bars to ensure social distancing.
 

JPRouve

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It’s natural to think that but that would ignore the fact that people catch a load of different viruses in December/January ever year and they haven’t gone away. With barely a handful of confirmed cases of covid in Europe at that time the odds are tens of thousands to one against any individual picking it up.
And the vast majority of people tested during what is considered a peak have been negative even though those people were for a large part filtered and needed more than one matching symptom to be tested.
 

Rajma

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5 confirmed new cases today, 1 up from yesterday from combined of 13k tests. All outbreaks are isolated (care homes and hospital), anyone who had a contact with the patients are on self isolation. Lockdown ends on 11th of May but some of the measures will be kept in place for much longer, including no mass gatherings, concerts, indoor restaurants/cafes, etc. for another few months I would guess.

Also:
Vilnius to become a huge outdoor café to beat social distancing restrictions

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-bar-social-distancing-lockdown-a9488576.html
 
Last edited:

Brwned

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That's hardly news is it? As Germany are opening up society, their disease control and prevention unit were much more explicit about it yesterday:
“We know with great certainty that there will be a second wave — the majority of scientists are sure of that. And many also assume that there will be a third wave,” said Lothar Wieler, the head of Germany’s national disease control center.

"This is a pandemic," he told reporters in Berlin. "And in a pandemic, this virus will cause disease until 60 to 70% of the population is infected."
 

Pogue Mahone

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And the vast majority of people tested during what is considered a peak have been negative even though those people were for a large part filtered and needed more than one matching symptom to be tested.
Exactly. Thinking about it, millions to one would probably be more accurate odds. Won’t stop people thinking/hoping they’ve got the winning covid lottery ticket though. That’s human nature.
 

11101

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This is a bit misleading. The aim of lockdowns and reopenings is not to stop transmission totally, it is to keep it under the limits of healthcare capacity. That applies anywhere in the world and everybody accepts there will be a second wave.
 

JPRouve

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That's hardly news is it? As Germany are opening up society, their disease control and prevention unit were much more explicit about it yesterday:
The same thing is said in France, the country is partially reopening May 11th and the PM warned that the risk of a second wave was serious.
 

Josep Dowling

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On the last paragraph hmrc are going to come down hard on all this. Any business that has claimed furlough or claimed the self employed check will be investigated.

They'll check billable hours, invoices, phone bills, electric bills etc etc to claw as much back as possible.

I know businesses claiming furlough that are still working in an office and hmrc will nail them easily when they get investigated.
This just isn't going to happen. HMRC do not have the resources to investigate the volume of businesses who are making claims. There is nearly a quarter of the population on furlough.
 

Josep Dowling

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I really can't see how HMRC can just change the rules for the self-employed. There will be a huge uproar given that they have stated that self-employed people can make a claim and continue to trade.
That is not what they have said. If your income has been affected by the coronavirus then you can make a claim for loss of earnings, it's not in addition to what you can earn. And this is the problem lots of people are seeing this as free money, in a lump sum potentially of £7,500. As I said the scheme was poorly designed.
 

worldgonemad

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I really can't see how HMRC can just change the rules for the self-employed. There will be a huge uproar given that they have stated that self-employed people can make a claim and continue to trade.
Self employed cannot furlough themselves and continue to trade . Ive furloughed and categorically i must not do anything other than the legal minimum from a paperwork point of view . I cannot prospect for work , undertake any work or invoice for any work .
 

Pagh Wraith

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5 confirmed new cases today, 1 up from yesterday from combined of 13k tests. All outbreaks are isolated (care homes and hospital), anyone who had a contact with the patients are on self isolation. Lockdown ends on 11th of May but some of the measures will be kept in place for much longer, including no mass gatherings, concerts, indoor restaurants/cafes, etc. for another few months I would guess.

Also:
Vilnius to become a huge outdoor café to beat social distancing restrictions

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-bar-social-distancing-lockdown-a9488576.html
That's great. I was actually planning to visit Vilnius last August. It was between Vilnius and Riga but decided for Riga in the end because of flight times/prices (don't remember) but it's still on the list. It's been recommended to me by few people.
 

Kopral Jono

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If the UK has the highest rate in europe, with the economy gone to shit with 2 months of lockdown, whats the point, all it shows is either lockdown isnt the right solution, or else it was done too late.
Personallly I find all the world locking their countries up, shows the power the governemtn has over controlling people in the future, and this is a large and succesful test, that didnt even require much of a military prescence to implement

Along with the scaremongering that has people walking on the road to avoid walking past people on the footpath, shows how terrified and easy it is to cause mass anxiety and fear in a general populace

Im not saying this covid is a hoax, but its at the same time a great way for government to experiment how easy it is to control their populations. Also I dont agree with this mass lockdown.

Just seen an article Sweden and one other scndinavian country were compared, sweden are not doing a lockdown, and other cuntry was, and both have a similiar R rate.

Plus there is no scientific evidence that a lockdown is beficial, everyone is doing it just because other countries did it, no one has any idea what they are doing with corona, theyre just making it up as they go along, and sadly this will have severe economic and unemployment repercussions on the general populace
I somewhat agree. Scientifically speaking I know very little about the whole thing, but in my opinion a lockdown just for the sake of locking down is pointless. It's only effective when coupled with an aggressive testing, tracking and isolating regime, in other words the enemy needs to be made visible. As a matter of fact I don't necessarily feel you need a lockdown if you go gung-ho on those three aspects (as shown by Hong Kong, Taiwan and South Korea), but this is hard.

That said, Western Europe and Northeastern US were pretty much screwed and were always going to play catch-up, lockdown or no lockdown, by the time it spread around the end of February. There's little you can do when the virus has penetrated a large number of the populace.
 

worldgonemad

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That is not what they have said. If your income has been affected by the coronavirus then you can make a claim for loss of earnings, it's not in addition to what you can earn. And this is the problem lots of people are seeing this as free money, in a lump sum potentially of £7,500. As I said the scheme was poorly designed.
None of the sole traders and guys in the trades i work with have had a lump sum of 7500 @ Josep Dowling . Most of us are out of pocket big time , though all that i speak to are very accepting the system cannot protect everyone
 

Organic Potatoes

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This is a bit misleading. The aim of lockdowns and reopenings is not to stop transmission totally, it is to keep it under the limits of healthcare capacity. That applies anywhere in the world and everybody accepts there will be a second wave.
In this instance, they will be saying publicly that it’s not so bad and the rise in cases will mostly be due to improved testing. As some states are reopening before they’ve peaked, this is a dangerous mindset to encourage.
 

Josep Dowling

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None of the sole traders and guys in the trades i work with have had a lump sum of 7500 @ Josep Dowling . Most of us are out of pocket big time , though all that i speak to are very accepting the system cannot protect everyone
Self employed people cannot make a claim yet - I can make claims for family members on 13th and 14th May.
 

Pogue Mahone

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There's some harrowing and not at all hyperbolic reads here from an ICU doctor at Charing Cross Hospital, read all 5 entries.
https://icudiary.com/covid-1/?fbclid=IwAR13h59TGHjKoHR_zaQFIT7HBWjiCnwfQh7dThtxFU-28AXJkv8T0fOCQjw

Incidentally in one of those entries the LUCAS machine which was just being trialled when I was working in CCU, this is what a resuscitation attempt looks like
Oh man. That diary. Reflects what I’m hearing from friends working in ITU in the uk but still manages to shock :(
 

Wolverine

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Needs venous sample. So no testing without phlebotomy. Good news all the same.
Definitely, that's a bigger rate limiting step than the swabs which will have to be overcome if this antibody test comes through. From the phleb clinics I've seen in most GP practices and in hospital outpatients or cancer units they can do blood sampling remarkable quickly and see a lot of patients but its trickier I think with PPE etc.

Most importantly I've lost a lot of trust in government to sort out healthcare problems that require heavy-duty or mass scale logistics. Will be more than happy to be proven wrong on this.
 

Wibble

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This is a bit misleading. The aim of lockdowns and reopenings is not to stop transmission totally, it is to keep it under the limits of healthcare capacity. That applies anywhere in the world and everybody accepts there will be a second wave.
I think Australia and NZ have a slight hope they can eliminate it and then only travel between each other until a vaccine is available.
 

Wibble

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Definitely, that's a bigger rate limiting step than the swabs which will have to be overcome if this antibody test comes through. From the phleb clinics I've seen in most GP practices and in hospital outpatients or cancer units they can do blood sampling remarkable quickly and see a lot of patients but its trickier I think with PPE etc.

Most importantly I've lost a lot of trust in government to sort out healthcare problems that require heavy-duty or mass scale logistics. Will be more than happy to be proven wrong on this.
Anything lead by Boris is going to be a shambles.
 

Wolverine

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I somewhat agree. Scientifically speaking I know very little about the whole thing, but in my opinion a lockdown just for the sake of locking down is pointless. It's only effective when coupled with an aggressive testing, tracking and isolating regime, in other words the enemy needs to be made visible. As a matter of fact I don't necessarily feel you need a lockdown if you go gung-ho on those three aspects (as shown by Hong Kong, Taiwan and South Korea), but this is hard.

That said, Western Europe and Northeastern US were pretty much screwed and were always going to play catch-up, lockdown or no lockdown, by the time it spread around the end of February. There's little you can do when the virus has penetrated a large number of the populace.
I don't think the lockdown was for the sake of it, it has reduced community spread and saved a lot of lives. I'd love to have it coupled with aggressive testing, tracking and quarantining as you mentioned but that takes time and competence to set up. And a lockdown is better than half-arsed delay measures which government was insisting on during delay phase which did absolutely nothing really.

Incidentally I do think if we had locked down earlier it would have made an exponential difference in deaths. When you're starting from a smaller community prevalence I think with something like this it helps massively.
 

Drifter

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58 percent of workers at Tyson meat factory in Iowa test positive for coronavirus

An Iowa Public Health Department report showed that more than 700 workers contracted the virus at a meat plant in Perry.

More than 700 employees at a Tyson Foods meat factory in Perry, Iowa, have tested positive for the coronavirus as the nation braces for a possible meat shortage due to the pandemic.

An Iowa Department of Public Health report released Tuesday showed that 58 percent of the factory's workforce had tested positive for the virus, NBC affiliate WHO of Des Moines reported. Authorities said late last week that nearly 900 workers were confirmed to have the virus at a Tyson Foods plant in Indiana.

Tyson Foods said in a statement that the pandemic has forced the company to slow production and close plants in Dakota City, Nebraska, and Pasco, Washington, along with the Perry plant.

"We have and expect to continue to face slowdowns and temporary idling of production facilities from team member shortages or choices we make to ensure operational safety," the statement said.

John Tyson, board chairman of Tyson Foods, warned that the food supply chain is breaking in a full-page advertisement published last month in The New York Times, The Washington Post and the Arkansas Democrat-Gazette.

Tyson Foods is not the only meat company facing worker infections. A Smithfield Foods plant in Sioux Falls, South Dakota, closed in April after two workers died and 783 others tested positive for the virus.

The pandemic's impact on meat plant workers has caused serious concerns about the supply chain in the U.S. and fears that the country could experience a meat shortage.

President Donald Trump signed an executive order to compel meat processing plants to stay open last week under the Defense Production Act. Trump said he will also provide liability protection.

"We have had some difficulty where they are having a liability where it's really unfair to them," Trump said at a small-business event at the White House last week. "I fully understand that it's not their fault."

Joe Biden, the apparent Democratic presidential nominee, said Monday that he feared for meatpacking workers. He said such plants, along with nursing homes, have become "the most dangerous places there are right now."

"They designate them as essential workers and then treat them as disposable," Biden said of the meatpackers.
 

arnie_ni

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None of the sole traders and guys in the trades i work with have had a lump sum of 7500 @ Josep Dowling . Most of us are out of pocket big time , though all that i speak to are very accepting the system cannot protect everyone
Its not open yet thats why. The portal for self employed to claim opens next week
 

Kopral Jono

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Honestly you should of stopped here.
Yes he should. Feelings don't top science.
Fair enough which is why I said so, but you don't think my opinions hold any merit at all? The fact of the matter is, there are countries where a lockdown hadn't been imposed and are doing well due to a solid testing, tracing and isolating regime, although admittedly this is easier said than done.

I don't think the lockdown was for the sake of it, it has reduced community spread and saved a lot of lives. I'd love to have it coupled with aggressive testing, tracking and quarantining as you mentioned but that takes time and competence to set up. And a lockdown is better than half-arsed delay measures which government was insisting on during delay phase which did absolutely nothing really.

Incidentally I do think if we had locked down earlier it would have made an exponential difference in deaths. When you're starting from a smaller community prevalence I think with something like this it helps massively.
Good points, thank you. I was actually thinking more of the situation in many developing countries, where governments are often a bit too zealous in wanting to impose a lockdown just for the sake of it without providing its citizens, many of them are living in poverty, basic needs and necessities.
 

jojojo

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An interesting story from the BBC on "pool testing" of samples for coronavirus in Ghana. Basically taking samples from a group of (ten for example) people and testing them all simultaneously. Then, if you get a positive result, you test the ten samples individually.

Obviously the advantages of such an approach would only be felt if coronavirus is a rarity in the group you're testing.

It did make me start thinking about testing entire football squads, or classes of kids, or families, or even carehomes every couple of days. Though, I must admit I was surprised that the approach might work at all in lab terms - it does say Germany and India have tried it as well, so hopefully there's good news on that front.

The BBC story:
Ghana has adopted "pool testing" of samples to maximise the use of coronavirus test kits that are in short supply globally.

It involves testing up to 10 samples in a single test. If any of the samples tests positive, then the entire batch is tested individually to identify the infected sample.

Scientists believe that the method is a valuable time saver in the fight against Covid-19 and has seen Ghana test more than 100,000 samples so far.

But it is only efficient while Ghana's infection rates remain low and the accuracy of the method has been disputed in some quarters.

"The limitations come in when the majority of the wells test positive in which case you have to rerun the majority of the pooled samples again and you lose the benefit of the efficiency of doing them concurrently," says Nana Kofi Quakyi, a research fellow at New York University’s School of Public Health.

Germany and India have adopted similar methods in testing for the virus - allowing them to expand their screening capacity and improve detection in communities.

Ghana's medical drones have being deployed to deliver Covid-19 samples directly to laboratories, the first country to do so in the world.

This enables authorities to identify and isolate infected persons quickly and contain the spread of the virus.
 

Wolverine

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Anything lead by Boris is going to be a shambles.
There's also this publication/advice to government about potential downsides of testing including "gaming" the system and unintended behaviour consequences especially in the event of re-infection for those who may be falsely told reassured that they are antibody positive
https://assets.publishing.service.g...ponses-covid-19-antibody-testing-13042020.pdf

Incidentally testing plans for easing lockdown or in a post-lockdown setting is so vague its unbelievable. I've watched every single second of the daily briefings since they started and they honestly have been to a large extent winging a lot of things that just shouldn't be winged. I suppose it'll be good to have even some of the SAGE advice published for scrutiny to see what decisions are being based on here
https://www.gov.uk/government/group...mergencies-sage-coronavirus-covid-19-response

But there's a tonne of redacted stuff in there and I've not got a sense that any coherent strategy has been elucidated from the evidence that is being presented to HMG