SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)

[Wibble]

I listened to a podcast where an epidemiologist did a rough estimate on what it would it take to reach herd immunity without a vaccine. They figured at least 5 or 6 waves.

And at the cost of how many lives?

 

[Volumiza]

When I'm listening the radio and hearing people argue xyz should remain open due to mental health, I can't help but think a lot of people want us to believe we are less resilient than we are, for their own purposes (to stay open)

Is the mental health argument being used to try and save businesses that are on poor financial footing?

I think there should be a strong consideration for gyms, some gyms at least, to stay open as long as they pass a Covid compliance test and can prove they have sufficient process to ensure distancing and hygiene measures are adequate.

Gyms and working out are in my view essential for some people’s mental health, mine included. I’m fortunate that I have a gym at home and have been able to carry on working out but I’d be struggling if that wasn’t the case.

 

[Mb194dc]

They have only tracked them for 6 months so far so they may well last much longer. Every person was found to have t-cells even if they had low or even no symptoms. People with worse symptoms had even more and hopefully the longevity as a result of a vaccine will be as good or better than these cases. So I'd say very good news as far as it goes.

Edit: Pogue posted about this yesterday as well. Or rather

The study is of clinical and health care workers of whom only 100 tested positive in March and April, not of the general population and is therefore totally useless in my view.

These people will very likely have had multiple exposures to Sars Cov 2, so there immune response will also be totally atypical compared to the general population who wouldn't in most circumstances. Quite possibly further exposure after the first boosts the immune response again.

It's also not clear if t cell immunity even stops reinfection. More likely T cell immunity causes asymptomatic infection in my view. It's not sterilising.

These results provide reassurance that, although the titre of antibody to SARS-CoV-2 can fall below detectable levels within a few months of infection, a degree of immunity to the virus may be maintained. However, the critical question remains: do these persistent T cells provide efficient protection against re-infection?

https://www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m4257

 

[Wibble]

You can't expect a study to give answers it can't answer and was never intended to do. Vaccination will hopefully produce a response at least as strong as that shown here with the more majorly symptomatic cases in this study especially as a booster will be given if required. Sterilising would of course be nice but it isn't necessary for a vaccine to be successful e.g. polio and Hepatitis C.

While this study doesn't prove that the T-cells give some immunity the expectation is that they will. So it still qualifies as good news imo.

 

[africanspur]

It’s not just Europe and North America though. South America’s been absolutely hammered. India’s having a terrible time. Case numbers are peaking in Iran and Israel’s had a second full lockdown already.

We also somehow have close neighbours having very different experiences to other countries in the same region. Pakistan doesn’t seem to be having a second wave, or Saudi Arabia. And the continent of Africa is a patchwork of very different caseload graphs.

It’s very hard to work out why different countries are/aren’t having a second wave but there’s more to it than just Europe/North America making terrible decisions.

It’s probably easier to look at the very small number of countries that seem to be doing well. The common themes seem to be geographic isolation and low population density and/or prior experience of dealing with a novel viral epidemic.

Apologies, completely forgot about replying to these posts.

Its true that those other countries are having a terrible time of it too, though perhaps only Iran and Israel of those have had true second waves, as opposed to continuations of first waves. The likes of Mexico and Argentina have never properly gotten case numbers down in the way that we managed across much of Europe and are just stuck in an increasingly severe 1st wave it seems.

I think the bolded part is certainly very important, though it is still pretty galling that we sacrificed so much in the first set of lockdowns and seemingly have been unable to use that and subsequent lull to build systems to deal with it, on top of what should already be very efficient PH infrastructures.

Saw this interesting....and slightly inflammatory! article yesterday in the Irish times that describes what I was trying to say in a more articulate manner. The first comment is just so classic as well.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/...-made-a-mess-of-handling-the-crisis-1.4395473

The West has failed – US and Europe have made a mess of handling the crisis
Western leaders have been insular slow learners at every stage of the Covid pandemic

 

[africanspur]

While both of these statements are true I'm not sure they tell the story you're alluding to. Business travel has dropped off a cliff everywhere and will recover much more slowly than leisure travel, so comparing business travel in Asia to leisure travel in Europe will only mislead.

From a quick glance at this data, people in Asia are travelling quite a lot on planes. There were 28m seats available on the w/c 19th October in APAC compared to 43m a year earlier, while there 11m seats available in Europe compared to 29m a year earlier. In other words the drop-off in European flights has been much more severe, even now. Or if you look at this data, Asian travel has been steadily increasing to now be the top travellers. That's domestic and international overall, and it's just the case that a larger proportion of European flights have always been international, so it's difficult to do a side by side comparison regionally.

If you take Japan as an example, 140k seats were available for international flights vs 1.2m a year earlier, whereas for the UK 930k seats were available vs 3m a year earlier. So Japan's international demand fell to 12% of normal levels while the UK's fell to 32%. And generally speaking European borders have been open much longer and to a much wider range of countries than Asia's. But then if the notion is that movement of people across medium-long distances through airports and planes is a major source of transmission, then domestic flights are still a risk factor and Asia are doing a lot more of that at the moment. And if you assume that most people are moving from areas of higher community transmission to lower community transmission, or maintaining a similar level, then the end destination doesn't matter all that much.

What would make a difference is the kinds of holidays people take and the propensity to do things in large groups, and from the data I've seen whether it was Asian travel (which has a tradition of large group cultural tours) or European travel (which obviously leans more to large group partying), there was much more travelling among small groups than usual. At the end of the day, most transmission that we're able to track comes from within our own borders. It's only the countries that have managed to keep it under control exceptionally well within their own borders (e.g. Germany) that can point to a significant proportion being imported in.

Thanks for this data, very interesting.

Doesn't the second set show that flights in the AP region are down by the same amount as Europe for domestic travel but more for international travel?

Regardless, I was being a little flippant. It isn't so much that I was saying that flights and travel are the major driver of new infections, more the impression that it gave off generally that we'd beaten the virus and could essentially go back to something like life as normal across the continent.

The article I posted in the comment above says a bit more eloquently what I was trying to say generally I think.

 

[Brwned]

Thanks for this data, very interesting.

Doesn't the second set show that flights in the AP region are down by the same amount as Europe for domestic travel but more for international travel?

Regardless, I was being a little flippant. It isn't so much that I was saying that flights and travel are the major driver of new infections, more the impression that it gave off generally that we'd beaten the virus and could essentially go back to something like life as normal across the continent.

The article I posted in the comment above says a bit more eloquently what I was trying to say generally I think.

I think the general pattern is Europe are flying more internationally, Asia are flying more domestically, Asia are flying overall. Those are the trends before covid and now, and Asian travel is consistently increasing while Europe's is now on the decline. But like you say it was more about the sentiment than the specifics. Asian travel gradually increasing while Europe's spiked in the summer, in line with the theory that things were back to normal here while in Asia it was a cautious return.

The point we differ on is what this signals. Your view is this is a cavalier attitude in Europe and measured realism in Asia, among the general population as well as the decision makers. I think it is mostly a direct result of government restrictions. The majority of people in either continent did not go on holiday, many because they couldn't afford to, many others because they were afraid to. Those who could afford to and wanted to travel in both regions decided to jump on a plane in similar numbers. It's just that in many of the Asian countries they weren't allowed to cross borders, so they had domestic holidays, but still jumping on a plane and covering a similar distance to European flights. If there were fewer domestic flights then we could infer that they were more cautious but there have been many more.

The notion that people thought we beat the virus in Europe while they didn't think that in Asia seems entirely unfounded. From what I've seen there are more people in Asia that were more optimistic about the virus situation in their own country in August, and more confidence in shopping, travelling, etc. The difference is they have better control of the spread so their optimism is closer to reality. But the assumption that if the roles were flipped, they would be acting completely differently...I just don't see the evidence for it.

What we saw in europe in the summer was a deeply human trait. We're overconfident and underestimate the severity of large, complex problems. There's only so long we can go without hope before we create reasons for hope, whether they're delusional or rational. Blaming Europeans for thinking that way after suffering the most severe economic and social attack in most people's lifetimes seems a little churlish. In Wuhan they're partying away with the tourists and in Tokyo even when the virus was spreading they were hitting the usual clubs while ours were closed down. The difference was they had the infrastructure to deal with the problem.

If the criticism applied to the UK only then I would see why people want to say look what the government and the people have done wrong. But it's happened in so many places around Europe, with so many different political positions driving it, so many different economic considerations influencing it, and a wide range of cultural attitudes. If they are all facing that problem then maybe there's more to it than individual decision making failure. Maybe we need to reckon with the scale of the problem in a different way.

Are South Africans dealing with the situation better than Italy? South Africans wouldnt say so, they've got loads of complaints, and lots of distrust in the logic behind the decisions. The fact they're suffering less from the virus right now doesn't mean they're dealing with it better. They're just dealing with a different version of the problem under different conditions. If things suddenly go out of control there in 6 months, when they're in winter and they have the same problem the Europeans did, in that a second lockdown was an absolute last resort because it's an economic catastrophe, I don't think it would be right to blame them. It's easier to blame people than to blame the virus but we have to recognise how hard it is to deal with the problem. Did the countries that avoided the worst of the Spanish flu deal with the situation better? Not really. Some measures worked better than others to control the spread but what dictate the worst hit countries wasn't policy or populace. So we should demand the right measures at the right time but we shouldn't blame those measures for failing to deal with a problem that was overwhelmingly big in the first place, IMO.

 

[F-Red]

Don't know if this has been shared on here yet, but for those that are interested here is the week 44 report from Public Health England.

https://assets.publishing.service.g.../Weekly_Flu_and_COVID-19_report_w44_FINAL.PDF

 

[MikeUpNorth]

I think there should be a strong consideration for gyms, some gyms at least, to stay open as long as they pass a Covid compliance test and can prove they have sufficient process to ensure distancing and hygiene measures are adequate.

Gyms and working out are in my view essential for some people’s mental health, mine included. I’m fortunate that I have a gym at home and have been able to carry on working out but I’d be struggling if that wasn’t the case.

Nah. One of my neighbours is severely autistic and goes and sits in the same cafe every single day at the same time. Closing that cafe is destroying her mental health, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't close cafes.

If gyms are closed, go for a run.

 

[Volumiza]

Nah. One of my neighbours is severely autistic and goes and sits in the same cafe every single day at the same time. Closing that cafe is destroying her mental health, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't close cafes.

If gyms are closed, go for a run.

Cafe's not quite the same in my opinion, hard as I'm sure it is on your neighbour and the thought of your neighbour is heartbreaking. Gyms are of great benefit, both physical and mental, to us as individuals. They're not just a pointless tentacle of capitalism and in my view are bordering on necessary as some people use them for pure health reasons. I've seen how some (some, though not all) gyms have dealt with the current situation and don't feel they are necessarily a Covid breeding ground.

Even so, I understand it can't be a totally selective endeavour, and I am very pro-lockdown but I wouldn't be concerned, or surprised if some gyms we allowed some slack if they could prove compliance. Going for a run isn't possible for some people.

 

[VP89]

Covid vaccine programme in UK to arrive in December apparently, front line workers and those over 80 are prioritised.

Take with a pinch of salt - this is from a CCG meeting for GP surgeries so it's coming from a rep. It was apparently kept under wrap by NHSE for a while.

 

[MikeUpNorth]

Cafe's not quite the same in my opinion, hard as I'm sure it is on your neighbour and the thought of your neighbour is heartbreaking. Gyms are of great benefit, both physical and mental, to us as individuals. They're not just a pointless tentacle of capitalism and in my view are bordering on necessary as some people use them for pure health reasons. I've seen how some (some, though not all) gyms have dealt with the current situation and don't feel they are necessarily a Covid breeding ground.

Even so, I understand it can't be a totally selective endeavour, and I am very pro-lockdown but I wouldn't be concerned, or surprised if some gyms we allowed some slack if they could prove compliance. Going for a run isn't possible for some people.

I just don't really see what can be done in a gym that can't be mirrored in some way at home or outside? Sure, you might not have access to heavy weights or specific machines at home or in the park, but you can quite easily do a decent workout that gets the heart going and the muscles working. Is it ideal? No. We're all having to give up cherished routines and adapt to this shitty situation. Someone might not be able to obtain their peak physique or rack up the gains or play their favourite sport at home... but that's hardly the priority in a pandemic. Keeping fit is perfectly possible.

 

[Eugenius]

Apologies, completely forgot about replying to these posts.

Its true that those other countries are having a terrible time of it too, though perhaps only Iran and Israel of those have had true second waves, as opposed to continuations of first waves. The likes of Mexico and Argentina have never properly gotten case numbers down in the way that we managed across much of Europe and are just stuck in an increasingly severe 1st wave it seems.

I think the bolded part is certainly very important, though it is still pretty galling that we sacrificed so much in the first set of lockdowns and seemingly have been unable to use that and subsequent lull to build systems to deal with it, on top of what should already be very efficient PH infrastructures.

Saw this interesting....and slightly inflammatory! article yesterday in the Irish times that describes what I was trying to say in a more articulate manner. The first comment is just so classic as well.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/...-made-a-mess-of-handling-the-crisis-1.4395473

The West has failed – US and Europe have made a mess of handling the crisis
Western leaders have been insular slow learners at every stage of the Covid pandemic

There's a very clear playbook to dealing with the virus - get the incidence very low with early (NZ) or harsh lockdowns (China). Keep incidence low with extremely tight border / quarantine requirements. And when you do get cases that pop up, take a local blanket approach to testing and strict lockdowns (Australia).

Unfortunately we didn't have the appetite/will to make the sacrifices in the West. So we're going to be stuck in this paradigm of teetering between soaring infections and constraining the economy. Whereas other countries with the will to pursue an eradication approach have much better health and economic outcomes.

 

[Volumiza]

Someone might not be able to obtain their peak physique or rack up the gains at home... but that's hardly the priority in a pandemic. Keeping fit is perfectly possible.

And I agree but there are lots of old people using gyms to retain health and some muscular strength under supervision of qualified professionals. Lots of people in some kind of rehab. I was / still am a well qualified PT with a medical referral qualification and there will be lots of people affected physically by the closure of gyms.

But, I'm not contesting the decision, just pointing out that gyms could be considered necessary business.

 

[MikeUpNorth]

And I agree but there are lots of old people using gyms to retain health and some muscular strength under supervision of qualified professionals. Lots of people in some kind of rehab. I was / still am a well qualified PT with a medical referral qualification and there will be lots of people affected physically by the closure of gyms.

But, I'm not contesting the decision, just pointing out that gyms could be considered necessary business.

It's a fair point. I'm not denying there are health consequences to closing gyms and other sports facilities. Hopefully they're not shut too long.

 

[Volumiza]

It's a fair point. I'm not denying there are health consequences to closing gyms and other sports facilities. Hopefully they're not shut too long.

Like your neighbours cafe eh? There's so many heartbreaking stories currently.

On a sidenote, I have a friend who moved to Surrey 16 years ago to live with a woman he met. He left all of us close friends behind and set up a new life. Over the years, although he and his Mrs are still together and happy, he has really started to feel detached from his true home. He misses us lot and where we live. He's such a great guy but has always struggled with moods over the years and recently got properly diagnosed as being bi polar. He is / was a dental technician, he makes teeth, and lost his job straight away back in April. He is struggling so much now, he feels he won't get another job at 48, feels lost and isolated and we are all genuinely worried for him.

 

[Santos J]

Can't wait to still be working in the office from new regs Thursday despite there being absolutely no need for us to be there and all being capable of working from home fine. Been personally around 3 cases/outbreaks in the past 5 weeks and all could have been avoided if people were allowed to work from home ffs.

 

[MikeUpNorth]

Can't wait to still be working in the office from new regs Thursday despite there being absolutely no need for us to be there and all being capable of working from home fine. Been personally around 3 cases/outbreaks in the past 5 weeks and all could have been avoided if people were allowed to work from home ffs.

Why won't they let you work from home?

 

[Santos J]

Why won't they let you work from home?

Feck knows. With construction being encouraged to stay open and our office 'being covid safe' because they've stuck a few screens up I presume they've just decided they're happy to keep us all in.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I just don't really see what can be done in a gym that can't be mirrored in some way at home or outside? Sure, you might not have access to heavy weights or specific machines at home or in the park, but you can quite easily do a decent workout that gets the heart going and the muscles working. Is it ideal? No. We're all having to give up cherished routines and adapt to this shitty situation. Someone might not be able to obtain their peak physique or rack up the gains or play their favourite sport at home... but that's hardly the priority in a pandemic. Keeping fit is perfectly possible.

I know that people who are against lockdowns bang the mental health drum far too often but I think getting gyms/amateur sports back to normal should be a priority. Not because I’m worried about a huge outbreak of clinical depression if they remain closed but they do provide joy to huge swathes of the population.

Taking part in (or watching your kids take part in) sport is a massive part of what makes life bearable for a lot of people. And it leaves a big hole in their routine now they’re gone. Without these weekly dopamine hits everyone is going to get more and more jaded and less willing to stick to the government recommendations. Plus they’re done while sober, so we can generally rely on sensible precautions to be taken, which doesn’t apply to most other ways we might seek out dopamine squirts.

 

[SiRed]

Feck knows. With construction being encouraged to stay open and our office 'being covid safe' because they've stuck a few screens up I presume they've just decided they're happy to keep us all in.

Im in exactly the same boat mate.
I have literally just come here to ask if an office can be legitimately classed as 'Covid secure'

My boss wants everyone in the office as productivity suffers 15% at home.

Boris said to work from home if we can, and we can. He did not say to work from home unless your office is covid secure!?!? Is that even a thing?

 

[Wibble]

There's a very clear playbook to dealing with the virus - get the incidence very low with early (NZ) or harsh lockdowns (China). Keep incidence low with extremely tight border / quarantine requirements. And when you do get cases that pop up, take a local blanket approach to testing and strict lockdowns (Australia).

Unfortunately we didn't have the appetite/will to make the sacrifices in the West. So we're going to be stuck in this paradigm of teetering between soaring infections and constraining the economy. Whereas other countries with the will to pursue an eradication approach have much better health and economic outcomes.

Victoria had an anti-lockdown demo of just over 400 assorted loons and white supremacists today (despite lock down being on the way out) and the police arrested 404 of them for breeching covid laws.

 

[RedRover]

Im in exactly the same boat mate.
I have literally just come here to ask if an office can be legitimately classed as 'Covid secure'

My boss wants everyone in the office as productivity suffers 15% at home.

Boris said to work from home if we can, and we can. He did not say to work from home unless your office is covid secure!?!? Is that even a thing?

Clearly, your safety should be paramount, but if the staff are 15% less productive at home, that's a problem that might result in you not having a job to come back to, if this drags on.

We've found we've been more productive at home, to some degree, although it hasn't all been plain sailing. Some staff not now keen to go back and work from home, although I suspect some others are thrilled.

 

[Penna]

The Italian government is bringing in new restrictions tomorrow - the worst-affected three regions (Lombardy, Piedmont and Calabria) will be in a red lockdown like the one we had back in March, with everything closed except food shops and pharmacies. The next set of regions will be in an orange lockdown where they will be allowed to also keep hairdressers open - there are a lot of regions in this list. The remaining regions will be classed as green and will be under the current restrictions with some enhancements.

So basically bars and restaurants are closing completely in most of the country, we won't be allowed to travel to a red region if we don't live there, there are likely to be evening curfews. Shopping centres to be closed at weekends, too. At the moment we're not prevented from leaving our Comune of residence, which was the really difficult restriction in the first lockdown for those of us living in very small places.

 

[NinjaFletch]

I know that people who are against lockdowns bang the mental health drum far too often but I think getting gyms/amateur sports back to normal should be a priority. Not because I’m worried about a huge outbreak of clinical depression if they remain closed but they do provide joy to huge swathes of the population.

Taking part in (or watching your kids take part in) sport is a massive part of what makes life bearable for a lot of people. And it leaves a big hole in their routine now they’re gone. Without these weekly dopamine hits everyone is going to get more and more jaded and less willing to stick to the government recommendations. Plus they’re done while sober, so we can generally rely on sensible precautions to be taken, which doesn’t apply to most other ways we might seek out dopamine squirts.

I think the problem with this, as with all of these suggestions, is that the confines of what you're deeming acceptable socialising are dictated largely by your lifestyle (or at least, as much as I understand what your lifestyle is). Whilst I don't have any objection to the idea that standing around on the side of a football pitch is basically safe (as is probably playing the sport itself!) it seems to me that you could make the same argument for basically any outdoor activity.

I think one of the things that I found hardest during the first lockdown, and more so when the restrictions were being unwound, was the sense of unfairness that what was and wasn't allowed was designed around the nuclear family. At the time I was in what lockdown had turned into a long distance relationship, which was diabolically awful and was for the best that covid ended, but I desperately wanted to see her and couldn't whilst other people's lives were returning to some degree of normality, it was that period that I found really tough, and so did almost everyone I know who was single/not living with their partners.

Perhaps I have an over-keen sense of fairness, but it seems to me that the mental health discussion is essentially one of just that. It's easier for everyone to make sacrifices and to pitch in and muddy together when it's felt like everyone is doing that, but when it feels like you and people who live lives like yours are bearing the brunt of restrictions that's when, I think, people seem to struggle. On a larger scale, I think it's why so many people despaired about Cummings and then stopped following guidelines.

So, I think for me, the answer is really that (as much as we would love to be able to have those touchstones of normality) a more brutal lockdown is paradoxically easier on mental health. Not only should it in theory mean that it should not have to last as long, but by creating a shared experience it at least feels like we're all pulling towards a collective goal – even if that means that activities that are essentially very low risk and basically fine don't take place either.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

Cafe's not quite the same in my opinion, hard as I'm sure it is on your neighbour and the thought of your neighbour is heartbreaking. Gyms are of great benefit, both physical and mental, to us as individuals. They're not just a pointless tentacle of capitalism and in my view are bordering on necessary as some people use them for pure health reasons. I've seen how some (some, though not all) gyms have dealt with the current situation and don't feel they are necessarily a Covid breeding ground.

Even so, I understand it can't be a totally selective endeavour, and I am very pro-lockdown but I wouldn't be concerned, or surprised if some gyms we allowed some slack if they could prove compliance. Going for a run isn't possible for some people.

Small world view buddy.

I hate Whetherspoons with a passion. Always a last resort.

But my grandfather went there daily for the last decade of his life. Spent hours drinking 99p Doom Bar with his 80+ year old friends and his brother. Guys that fought in the war. Worked hard in factories. Blue collar fella that gave my mum a good life and did his best in life.

Taking away his ability to go to a pub would have almost certainly have ruined a year of his life.

I don’t believe Pubs should be open. But to many, they’re as valuable as a cafe and a gym and a park.

People try to reduce these things to binary positions. It’s stupid.

We all live our own existence. To promote our own needs and views should not involve reducing others position.

The idea that you cannot get what you need from a gym, without going there, is false. I respect your order of priority. But we’re all wrong headed.

 

[Smores]

There's a long list list of activities that are of minimal risk but put them all together and I'm going to assume they suddenly collectively become significant.

Good luck to any government in unpicking them in a fair way that isn't open to legal challenge on a number of grounds.

I'd argue the only things that should be kept open are where there's an obvious need and reasonable alternatives don't exist.

 

[Jippy]

No matter how much messaging about Covid transmission you put out there, the tide of panicky idiots will never be stemmed.

Stokie mum bins £23 takeaway over what she says delivery driver told her

"I may as well have got £23 and put it in the bin because that’s what I did last night. I was so disappointed and very angry about it."

https://www.stokesentinel.co.uk/new...2gxFlh4ugFJe-6QY2rWM16Ltxjp6QJm0iakTu76u9PQzE

 

[Volumiza]

Small world view buddy.

I hate Whetherspoons with a passion. Always a last resort.

But my grandfather went there daily for the last decade of his life. Spent hours drinking 99p Doom Bar with his 80+ year old friends and his brother. Guys that fought in the war. Worked hard in factories. Blue collar fella that gave my mum a good life and did his best in life.

Taking away his ability to go to a pub would have almost certainly have ruined a year of his life.

I don’t believe Pubs should be open. But to many, they’re as valuable as a cafe and a gym and a park.

People try to reduce these things to binary positions. It’s stupid.

We all live our own existence. To promote our own needs and views should not involve reducing others position.

The idea that you cannot get what you need from a gym, without going there, is false. I respect your order of priority. But we’re all wrong headed.

My following post maybe summed up my position more clearly and it wasn't for my own gain, I am no longer in that business, so telling me I have a small world view is wrong, it wasn't what my intention was. I think there is a valid discussion to be had for gyms if they are catering to those that need prescribed, instructed and supervised exercise.

The last sentence is wrong. For people like me, yes, I can do what I need to do elsewhere. I actually have my own gym so there has been very little impact on my fitness regime. There are, however, people who use gyms for rehab and actual health reasons.

 

[jojojo]

The last sentence is wrong. For people like me, yes, I can do what I need to do elsewhere. I actually have my own gym so there has been very little impact on my fitness regime. There are, however, people who use gyms for rehab and actual health reasons.

But there are a lot of people who use gyms for rehab/health reasons who won't be going there until the strain on health services and the risks of doing "anything" outside the home are reduced again - including the ones who need help most urgently. Things like rehab for stroke victims and for hip replacement patients following surgery simply isn't happening (and hasn't been for months) across many regions, supervised physio for post-op cancer patients has mostly turned into watching a youtube video and reading a leaflet and (if you're lucky) a zoom session.

What we're talking about in the case of whole sectors of the economy and of social life are situations where it's not proven if they spread the virus in any significant way or not - tiny little additions to the R value perhaps. The trouble is that we're in a pandemic where the psychology of social distancing and avoiding human contact relies on us to play along. "All in it together" might mean it doesn't matter about the details or the specifics, but it matters massively in the overall response of people. The more the world seems to be shut, the easier it is to encourage people to think in terms of minimising their personal interactions and getting the numbers down again.

The more special cases and exceptions there are, the more people get irritated and irrational about the overall concept - the likelier they are to "cheat" or to rationalise why their conduct is ok, because "it's no different to" whatever is happening.

 

[Volumiza]

But there are a lot of people who use gyms for rehab/health reasons who won't be going there until the strain on health services and the risks of doing "anything" outside the home are reduced again - including the ones who need help most urgently. Things like rehab for stroke victims and for hip replacement patients following surgery simply isn't happening (and hasn't been for months) across many regions, supervised physio for post-op cancer patients has mostly turned into watching a youtube video and reading a leaflet and (if you're lucky) a zoom session.

What we're talking about in the case of whole sectors of the economy and of social life are situations where it's not proven if they spread the virus in any significant way or not - tiny little additions to the R value perhaps. The trouble is that we're in a pandemic where the psychology of social distancing and avoiding human contact relies on us to play along. "All in it together" might mean it doesn't matter about the details or the specifics, but it matters massively in the overall response of people. The more the world seems to be shut, the easier it is to encourage people to think in terms of minimising their personal interactions and getting the numbers down again.

The more special cases and exceptions there are, the more people get irritated and irrational about the overall concept - the likelier they are to "cheat" or to rationalise why their conduct is ok, because "it's no different to" whatever is happening.

Like I've said before, I get it. There's not one post in this thread from me that would indicate I'm not in agreement with lockdown. All I was meaning to state was that out of all businesses that have had to close, allowing well run gyms to open would surprise and concern me the least because in my opinion they are as close to being an essential service as anything and provide massive physical and mental health benefits at a time where both are at a premium. I hate to quote myself but see below.

Even so, I understand it can't be a totally selective endeavour, and I am very pro-lockdown but I wouldn't be concerned, or surprised if some gyms we allowed some slack if they could prove compliance. Going for a run isn't possible for some people.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

My following post maybe summed up my position more clearly and it wasn't for my own gain, I am no longer in that business, so telling me I have a small world view is wrong, it wasn't what my intention was. I think there is a valid discussion to be had for gyms if they are catering to those that need prescribed, instructed and supervised exercise.

The last sentence is wrong. For people like me, yes, I can do what I need to do elsewhere. I actually have my own gym so there has been very little impact on my fitness regime. There are, however, people who use gyms for rehab and actual health reasons.

I literally said I hate Whetherspoons, then supported their function as part of society.

We’re all small minded at times and all support our own view.

Sorry if you felt I was criticising you. We’re all in the same boat. I was just providing context for how we all feel differently about ‘what’s important’.

Nuthin but love for you Brutha

 

[decorativeed]

Can't wait to still be working in the office from new regs Thursday despite there being absolutely no need for us to be there and all being capable of working from home fine. Been personally around 3 cases/outbreaks in the past 5 weeks and all could have been avoided if people were allowed to work from home ffs.

Loads of places operating in the same manner, I'm hearing. Nobody is taking this anywhere near as seriously as they did in March, despite the prognosis being worse. The rules being inexplicably more lax than they were last time makes it easy for employers to dick their employees about and needlessly put them at risk. The decision to do a half-arsed lockdown at this precise moment is going to cause more damage than last time to retail and restaurants etc and be nowhere near worth it as they've not done enough to actually stop people going to places where they can spread the virus. I can't see this winter being anythong other than a complete disaster.

 

[Volumiza]

I literally said I hate Whetherspoons, then supported their function as part of society.

We’re all small minded at times and all support our own view.

Sorry if you felt I was criticising you. We’re all in the same boat. I was just providing context for how we all feel differently about ‘what’s important’.

Nuthin but love for you Brutha

No, I felt no criticism fella and everything is contextual I know. I'll reiterate that I'm not actually on my soapbox with my megaphone, shouting 'Gyms must open' but as someone who used to work in that industry and especially in prescribed exercise I'm aware of the importance of keeping certain individuals moving and, although I'm a believer in the current social restrictions, I could understand gyms being given some leeway if they could prove to be run correctly and safely.

 

[Santos J]

Loads of places operating in the same manner, I'm hearing. Nobody is taking this anywhere near as seriously as they did in March, despite the prognosis being worse. The rules being inexplicably more lax than they were last time makes it easy for employers to dick their employees about and needlessly put them at risk. The decision to do a half-arsed lockdown at this precise moment is going to cause more damage than last time to retail and restaurants etc and be nowhere near worth it as they've not done enough to actually stop people going to places where they can spread the virus. I can't see this winter being anythong other than a complete disaster.

Definitely. My girlfriend works in a department of 8 people all in the same fairly small office room. 4 of which are her department managers or near enough, 2 of them tested positive so they and the 2 other managers worked from home yet they wouldn't let my mrs and the 3 others work from home and then a week later would you believe it she tests positive. Of course they've still not changed anything and she was back in yesterday which is the first day she could stop isolating from. It's ridiculous.

 

[decorativeed]

Definitely. My girlfriend works in a department of 8 people all in the same fairly small office room. 4 of which are her department managers or near enough, 2 of them tested positive so they and the 2 other managers worked from home yet they wouldn't let my mrs and the 3 others work from home and then a week later would you believe it she tests positive. Of course they've still not changed anything and she was back in yesterday which is the first day she could stop isolating from. It's ridiculous.

My dad is lucky in that he works in an office on his own. But he doesn't need to be there either. He started off shielding in March because of health issues. But now, with the situation every bit as bad as it was back then, he's back on site and in work, where he uses a computer to do tasks he can do remotely. I've no idea why, but most managers are obsessed with the idea that you need to be in the office to do work, and they need to have that physical control over their staff. I know from experience that when I am in the office at work and it's a quiet period, I can do next to nothing in a day, so it's just a case of being seen to turn up, and has no effect on productivity.

 

[Sweet Square]

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[BD]

Case numbers are not great at all here (Switzerland), yet bars and restaurants are still open. Can one be blamed for going to a bar and following the guidelines, or should people take a bit more responsibility on themselves and refrain from going?

 

[decorativeed]

Case numbers are not great at all here (Switzerland), yet bars and restaurants are still open. Can one be blamed for going to a bar and following the guidelines, or should people take a bit more responsibility on themselves and refrain from going?

I think a lot of that depends on what you do in the rest of your life - whether you're living alone, working from home and keeping yourself to yourself otherwise, etc.

 

[Bebestation]

Case numbers are not great at all here (Switzerland), yet bars and restaurants are still open. Can one be blamed for going to a bar and following the guidelines, or should people take a bit more responsibility on themselves and refrain from going?

Its addiction in my opinion.

Addiction for alcohol, takeaway food, hanging out with your friends, shisha etc.

It's hard to control this for a person and its something that has to be done by themselves.