Erik ten Hag - Manchester United manager

[croadyman]

ETH should not really be playing such an attacking lineup if he isn’t completely sure that the players can execute the plan. We have played on the break to some effect in this type of game before - because it’s clear that to stand toe to toe with this top city side you need an ultra well drilled team (Liverpool only side I have really seen doing it consistently) We are miles off that type of consistency so was a strange line up for me.

How can you beat a top side if you a) get outworked and b) have attacking players that don’t have any confidence on the ball. Sancho was a real let down. Rashford. Bruno. Excuses excuses.

Right now - every fan, pundit, ex player , ex manager etc. could see…we are not ready to press high against top sides. No shame in it. We know it’s a process…doesn’t mean we have to be stupid. Grind out a draw and win the next 5 games. get up to speed for the return game old Trafford.

whichever way you look at it, shipping 4 goals before half time once is a step and a lesson in the process. Doing it twice is completely inconceivable at this level. Shouldn’t have happened.

Yeah we are short in seven areas of first XI against City and maybe four against the rest so can't play that style of Football yet

 

[InspiRED]

I can’t be only one to see glimmers of hope even in that atrocious result yesterday. I only caught the second half (did watch first half later) and it was a different kind of spanking to the ones dished up last season. Fair enough, city had already truly won the game by HT, but even with us playing poorly we were finding good passes in the second half, nice tidy little bits of play.

The point that I’m making is that under Ole - when it was bad and most of Ralf’s time - when defeats were heavy they were shocking, there was virtually nothing to hang onto. We had a liquid butter midfield and defence and our one tactic was Bruno with the diagonal over the top for Rashford/their keeper. Watching first half back was abject, but there’s signs of life in this team and project. The fact they are working it from the back and often finding teammate in space in the final third of the pitch - even on a very bad day at the office - is frankly encouraging, Plus City have a kind of insane attack at the moment with Haaland who is converting virtually every chance he gets.

No point in toys out of the pram now, it took 6 years for Pep to build that juggernaut and they are also bankrolled by a sovereign oil fund

 

[croadyman]

I can’t be only one to see glimmers of hope even in that atrocious result yesterday. I only caught the second half (did watch first half later) and it was a different kind of spanking to the ones dished up last season. Fair enough, city had already truly won the game by HT, but even with us playing poorly we were finding good passes in the second half, nice tidy little bits of play.

The point that I’m making is that under Ole - when it was bad and most of Ralf’s time - when defeats were heavy they were shocking, there was virtually nothing to hang onto. We had a liquid butter midfield and defence and our one tactic was Bruno with the diagonal over the top for Rashford/their keeper. Watching first half back was abject, but there’s signs of life in this team and project. The fact they are working it from the back and often finding teammate in space in the final third of the pitch - even on a very bad day at the office - is frankly encouraging, Plus City have a kind of insane attack at the moment with Haaland who is converting virtually every chance he gets.

No point in toys out of the pram now, it took 6 years for Pep to build that juggernaut and they are also bankrolled by a sovereign oil fund

Yes but we let them build this juggernaut and that for me is the part totally unacceptable

 

[DutchCruijff]

Do you want to move the goalposts any more?
Pressing isn't just a high press, it's a coordinated structure of putting pressure on the ball playing opponent. Doesn't have to be high, it can be anywhere on the pitch.

We did that well against Liverpool, so there's one game, with the same players that were involved yesterday, which proves they can do it.

I think you are misconstruing what pressing is due to the bile and angst that is emanating from your every furiously typed word.

I suggest a lie down, then watch the Liverpool game again,

Pressing cannot just be relegated to one area of the pitch, which is exactly what you're doing.

Yesterday we tried to high press - what Ten Hag is trying to achieve - and we were ripped apart. You're just missing the context.

To be wholly competent at pressing, one can't say "Oh, we're only good at pressing in our own half". That is not what pressing is. It's entirely holistic and if you can't high press or press beyond your own half, how on earth can you say with a straight face that these players can press? They've not shown a single example the past year.

Liverpool was not an example of high pressing, that was an example of drawing them into our own half and pressing with limited space behind the players. Can they do that? Yes. We were able to do that under Ole.

But that's (a) not pressing in its entirety, (b) not what Ten Hag or Rangnick wanted, (c) we don't need Rashford/Sancho/Fernandes to step out inside our own half and (d) won't get us anywhere in the long run - we need to learn how to press and that includes, crucially, pressing beyond our own half.

 

[mav_9me]

But ... do you set up your team the same way vs City and vs Leicester? That's a bit naive I think.

In the first half, our three players at the top (Rashford, Antony, Sancho) did not help the defence, they were doing nothing at all. Both Dalot and Malecia were alone and couldn't cope.

That imo was the biggest reason we lost, not the whole game but to begin with. Those 3 were lost. Why that was, ETH would probably know. Something tactical or they didn't work hard enought?

 

[mu4c_20le]

ETH should not really be playing such an attacking lineup if he isn’t completely sure that the players can execute the plan. We have played on the break to some effect in this type of game before - because it’s clear that to stand toe to toe with this top city side you need an ultra well drilled team (Liverpool only side I have really seen doing it consistently) We are miles off that type of consistency so was a strange line up for me.

He just put out the same team that has been winning, so it was more about consistency than wanting to go toe to toe. Then again, if he went 5 at the back, no doubt we'd hear some people moaning about abandoning his principles.

 

[captaincantona]

He just put out the same team that has been winning, so it was more about consistency than wanting to go toe to toe. Then again, if he went 5 at the back, no doubt we'd hear some people moaning about abandoning his principles.

That’s my point…anyone talking about principles must be delighted with that result…lose…get embarrassed…but at least we tried to play our way. But we didn’t! We just looked like amateurs chasing professionals for 50 minutes.

so much for principles!

 

[romufc]

I can't see any way he'll be backed as heavily next summer. The only reason he was backed so heavily is likely so the Glazers could take some heat off themselves.

I think he'll definitely sell at least 3 or 4 next summer, and probably bring in maybe another 3. I can't see our net spent being anything more than the ~100m mark. Hopefully his coaching and methods will start showing more as the season goes on, and a fair few of the current team can adapt.

The problem with this is, we do not know how to sell. Other clubs sell their youth products for £15-20m and we cannot even get that for senior players.

Southampton signed Banzu, City's youth keeper for £12m and Lavia for £12m.

I think we are really hoping Ten Hags coaching does the trick

 

[Adisa]

My manager.

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[Berbaclass]

My manager.

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Very good

 

[Idxomer]

My manager.

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Should've told them that before awarding Bruno a new contract after an abysmal season.

 

[Champ]

Pressing cannot just be relegated to one area of the pitch, which is exactly what you're doing.

Yesterday we tried to high press - what Ten Hag is trying to achieve - and we were ripped apart. You're just missing the context.

To be wholly competent at pressing, one can't say "Oh, we're only good at pressing in our own half". That is not what pressing is. It's entirely holistic and if you can't high press or press beyond your own half, how on earth can you say with a straight face that these players can press? They've not shown a single example the past year.

Liverpool was not an example of high pressing, that was an example of drawing them into our own half and pressing with limited space behind the players. Can they do that? Yes. We were able to do that under Ole.

But that's (a) not pressing in its entirety, (b) not what Ten Hag or Rangnick wanted, (c) we don't need Rashford/Sancho/Fernandes to step out inside our own half and (d) won't get us anywhere in the long run - we need to learn how to press and that includes, crucially, pressing beyond our own half.

Your so muddled here.

As I keep saying to you, pressing in its entirety, is a structured cohesive method of putting pressure on the opponent's who have the ball, it happens all over the pitch, not just high up the pitch.

You claim these players can't press yet then counteract that by saying the very same players pressed at Liverpool.

Good teams counter the other team, a high press doesn't always win every game, hence the need for deeper pressing, that's how we won the Liverpool game.

So, the players can press, you've even said it yourself.

The same aspect of a deep press can be taken into a higher press, it's a structure, one which we used at Arsenal, we actually engaged much higher up the pitch in that game, just Arsenal were extremely good at countering the press hence the reason we dropped back into a shape and played on the counter (again, good teams adapt and adjust depending on the situation),

A high press isn't always needed to win a game.

I actually don't think we tried to high press yesterday at all, we gave the back line of City too easy a game by not engaging high, seemed tactical to me but the City midfield use of the ball was alas exceptional, ours wasn't.
We tried to play on the counter and kept trying killer balls leading to an inordinate amount of turnovers in the first half.

I comprehend what you are saying, I just think you are applying a high press as the only way to press, when it quite clearly isn't.

 

[SAF is the GOAT]

Start with the sacking of Matt Judge - He's still there.

Its about time that we'll start giving new contract to players who earns it!
this players aren't hungry enough! they're full! they get wages like no other and they think they've "done it".

Stop with this charity already and give money for free,
you want a new contract ? prove that you deserve it!
you want upgrade on your wages - earn it!

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[Robbie Boy]

The problem with this is, we do not know how to sell. Other clubs sell their youth products for £15-20m and we cannot even get that for senior players.

Southampton signed Banzu, City's youth keeper for £12m and Lavia for £12m.

I think we are really hoping Ten Hags coaching does the trick

Oh yeah, we're absolutely dreadful at selling alright.

Hopefully though if we ship out the likes of Maguire, we could get relatively decent fees.

 

[Skills]

Oh yeah, we're absolutely dreadful at selling alright.

Hopefully though if we ship out the likes of Maguire, we could get relatively decent fees.

I think it's more than that. The reason we can't sell players, is because we make sure the entire world see's that they're not good enough before we consider selling them (because that's the sort of time we ourselves need to figure it out ourselves).

All of this actually relates to the underlying issue at the club - which is that Manchester United can't tell the difference between an excellent, good or a bad player. It's why we're poor at identifying them for transfers, and it's why we hold onto our youth players for so long that the entire world knows whether they're good enough or not.

 

[NZT-One]

That’s my point…anyone talking about principles must be delighted with that result…lose…get embarrassed…but at least we tried to play our way. But we didn’t! We just looked like amateurs chasing professionals for 50 minutes.

so much for principles!

I agree. Only explanation I have, that all this reasoning is some sort of coping mechanism. Or a try to protect the manager from criticism which isn't necessary because the "attacks" aren't harmful. And some are still arguing against imaginary positions that we should have closed the shop when nobody indicated something like that.

I think it's more than that. The reason we can't sell players, is because we make sure the entire world see's that they're not good enough before we consider selling them.

All of this actually relates to the underlying issue at the club - which is that Manchester United can't tell the difference between an excellent, good or a bad player. It's why we're poor at identifying them for transfers, and it's why we hold onto our youth players for so long that the entire world knows whether they're good enough or not.

Good point! Add to that, that we as fans and the club are so eager, to talk about anything worldclass in our squad, that we are perfectly fine with hyping up our talents only to see them crash and burn. I hope we got the turn now and that we are building teams, that aren't relying on the youngest players to perform miraculously but that uses such talent as bonus. United gets dragged down by its own self perception which often doesn't the actual image.

 

[Skills]

I agree. Only explanation I have, that all this reasoning is some sort of coping mechanism. Or a try to protect the manager from criticism which isn't necessary because the "attacks" aren't harmful. And some are still arguing against imaginary positions that we should have closed the shop when nobody indicated something like that.


Good point! Add to that, that we as fans and the club are so eager, to talk about anything worldclass in our squad, that we are perfectly fine with hyping up our talents only to see them crash and burn. I hope we got the turn now and that we are building teams, that aren't relying on the youngest players to perform miraculously but that uses such talent as bonus. United gets dragged down by its own self perception which often doesn't the actual image.

I mean, i don't think the hype harms your chances at selling them. In fact, you should sell them when the hype is high - it's just the clubs got to be quite cold blooded about it.

Its better than when the fans make their own players into massive memes that no other club then wants to touch.

 

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

I think it's more than that. The reason we can't sell players, is because we make sure the entire world see's that they're not good enough before we consider selling them (because that's the sort of time we ourselves need to figure it out ourselves).

All of this actually relates to the underlying issue at the club - which is that Manchester United can't tell the difference between an excellent, good or a bad player. It's why we're poor at identifying them for transfers, and it's why we hold onto our youth players for so long that the entire world knows whether they're good enough or not.

Preach.

 

[NewUser777]

Hindsightcaf out in full force

Indeed. Some even blame Rangnick and Ole. Varane and Sancho where the only players from that era that started..

We seen this since for ever, total collapse from our players. It’s like they don’t understand how hard they have to work or what to do. I really think this is a culture thing, and I think ETH is doing the right thing by it. He is more ruthless than Ole, who believed players would turn it around. They did, and they do. But then plumber not managing doing the basics.

If they have some sense of self preservation, they should at least understand to turn up intensity in training. Knowing this lot, they jog on for the World Cup.

edit: and Bruno. I stand corrected! It is Oles fault..

 

[Robbie Boy]

I think it's more than that. The reason we can't sell players, is because we make sure the entire world see's that they're not good enough before we consider selling them (because that's the sort of time we ourselves need to figure it out ourselves).

All of this actually relates to the underlying issue at the club - which is that Manchester United can't tell the difference between an excellent, good or a bad player. It's why we're poor at identifying them for transfers, and it's why we hold onto our youth players for so long that the entire world knows whether they're good enough or not.

Yeah I agree that this is the crux of it. We hang onto under-performing players for far too long - usually giving them ludicrous contracts too - and then we find it extremely difficult to shift them. The fact we still have DDG and Jones from the Fergie era is astounding, considering we've had 5 different managers (permanent) in that space of time.

 

[Salus Populi Suprema Lex]

He will learn from yesterday. He picked a team that was too open for The Etihad and paid the price. We should have gone 4-5-1 and put Casemiro and Fred in the midfield. Having just Erikson and McTominay to do the tackling was never going to be enough. Our midfield was swamped and there was no cover for the defence. I'm sure ETG regrets it now and won't do it again.

 

[NewUser777]

Yeah I agree that this is the crux of it. We hang onto under-performing players for far too long - usually giving them ludicrous contracts too - and then we find it extremely difficult to shift them. The fact we still have DDG and Jones from the Fergie era is astounding, considering we've had 5 different managers (permanent) in that space of time.

Man Utd is the place where players come to die. And has been for years..

 

[Flexdegea]

@Flexdegea Do you see the reason why I said he has done an OK job so far?

Will be hard for any one to argue about it after yesterday

You where spot on about the humbling. I don't think it be the first time it will happen this season either.


It just showed the gulf in the teams more than anything. I'm not worried about it.

 

[CM]

Should've told them that before awarding Bruno a new contract after an abysmal season.

Fernandes was given that new contract before ten Hag even arrived at the club. It would be interesting to hear who it was that signed off on that. It was mental at the time, doubling his wages to add an extra year to his contract. Killed any chance the club might've had to sell him if the manager wanted to go in that direction.

 

[Irwin99]

My manager.

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Thank god if that's true. We let players with high resale value leave on free contacts (Herrera, Pogba, Lingard, Mata would all have fetched at least 10+ million if sold at the right time) and yet reward other underperforming players with multiple contract extensions. Has to stop.

 

[Awwal Lawal]

My manager.

It is this kind of sound bites that turn fans on the coach/manager.

Is he dabbling into contract renewals and financials?

Does he want to show a authoritarian hold on the team through this press leak?

Pep and Klopp mostly sidestep issues relating to renewals and financials in their press dealings. A recent case in point is the loss of Saido Mane to Bayern.

There is no need to puff chest about a manager dropping such sound bites in the press.

 

[HookedOnAPhelan]

It is this kind of sound bites that turn fans on the coach/manager.

Is he dabbling into contract renewals and financials?

Does he want to show a authoritarian hold on the team through this press leak?

Pep and Klopp mostly sidestep issues relating to renewals and financials in their press dealings. A recent case in point is the loss of Saido Mane to Bayern.

There is no need to puff chest about a manager dropping such sound bites in the press.

The feck are you talking about?

 

[RedOrange]

He will learn from yesterday. He picked a team that was too open for The Etihad and paid the price. We should have gone 4-5-1 and put Casemiro and Fred in the midfield. Having just Erikson and McTominay to do the tackling was never going to be enough. Our midfield was swamped and there was no cover for the defence. I'm sure ETG regrets it now and won't do it again.

Fred has been absolute shite in all of his midfield appearances save for his cameo yesterday. The instant he is pressed he coughs up the ball like he's being mugged at gunpoint. If ETH had started him yesterday, everyone would be in here complaining about how stupid it was to start Fred in midfield.

The criticisms in here are all being made with the benefit of hindsight. The mere fact that there are other lineup options is taken as proof that the manager got it wrong, but you're not considering the possibility that there isn't actually a subset of the current group of midfielders that will give United a decent chance of winning against City. The gulf in quality of the two squads is massive, and on no area of the pitch is it bigger than the midfield.

And yes, ETH could have set the team up to sit deep and try to hit on the counter. The problem with that is City have little trouble demolishing teams who try to do that, and ETH is also being judged by the board on his progress in getting the players working in a new style of play. At some point they have to try to play that against good opposition and get the mistakes out or it's never going to happen.

Even if we had nicked a draw out of this match you'd have the usual whiners in here complaining about ETH though. That's why many of you are getting pushback on your criticism, because there are posters here who have criticised ETH after every match this season. After wins it's not good enough because we don't control the match enough and after losses ETH didn't sit back and hit off the counter.

 

[bosskeano]

My manager.

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Thank god....someone who is sensible and not dishing out contracts for under performing players

 

[romufc]

Will be hard for any one to argue about it after yesterday

You where spot on about the humbling. I don't think it be the first time it will happen this season either.


It just showed the gulf in the teams more than anything. I'm not worried about it.

Its just how I saw it after our performances which have been very lucky.

I hope that is the last one.

 

[NZT-One]

Fred has been absolute shite in all of his midfield appearances save for his cameo yesterday. The instant he is pressed he coughs up the ball like he's being mugged at gunpoint. If ETH had started him yesterday, everyone would be in here complaining about how stupid it was to start Fred in midfield.

The criticisms in here are all being made with the benefit of hindsight. The mere fact that there are other lineup options is taken as proof that the manager got it wrong, but you're not considering the possibility that there isn't actually a subset of the current group of midfielders that will give United a decent chance of winning against City. The gulf in quality of the two squads is massive, and on no area of the pitch is it bigger than the midfield.

And yes, ETH could have set the team up to sit deep and try to hit on the counter. The problem with that is City have little trouble demolishing teams who try to do that, and ETH is also being judged by the board on his progress in getting the players working in a new style of play. At some point they have to try to play that against good opposition and get the mistakes out or it's never going to happen.

Even if we had nicked a draw out of this match you'd have the usual whiners in here complaining about ETH though. That's why many of you are getting pushback on your criticism, because there are posters here who have criticised ETH after every match this season. After wins it's not good enough because we don't control the match enough and after losses ETH didn't sit back and hit off the counter.

I'd bet big against the bolded claim. There is next to no indicator at all, that the people higher in the hierarchy than ETH have even a clue what exactly is a style of play and how to recognize it.

This is the sort of "reasoning" against so called whiners - you are trying to counter them guessing we might have got a different outcome with another approach with guessing that there wouldn't have been a different outcome. Whats the point of that? I mean as soon as we are guessing, it is about probabilities - and I'd argue that the probabilities for a less heavy defeat would would increase by adding a defensive player or setting up a little deeper. If you want to say that taking a different approach wouldn't have been any different, that has to mean that the other approach (the choosen one) is the only viable. But we know for a fact that the outcome of that approach has been seriously bad. I don't get it. I mean, it will difficult to reason that another approach might have led to an even worse result.

 

[Red Dreams]

ETH will turn this around but you feckers need to give him time. He will learn from this. Us fans need to stop wanting every thing now now now and have patience. He’s had 1 summer to try and fix the squad. There is much to do.

@Red Dreams your hair covered in cornflakes yet?

7 games in and this place is the usual madhouse.

I have full faith in Erik.
Never thought we would win every game after the 4 wins.
He will keep thinking and tinkering with players and tactics.
One thing is certain. He will will accept no substitute for total commitment from the players.

Liverpool play Arsenal and City in the next two matches.

As Fergie used to say. We kick on.

 

[bosskeano]

7 games in and this place is the usual madhouse.

I have full faith in Erik.
Never thought we would win every game after the 4 wins.
He will keep thinking and tinkering with players and tactics.
One thing is certain. He will will accept no substitute for total commitment from the players.

Liverpool play Arsenal and City in the next two matches.

As Fergie used to say. We kick on.

Exactly...and we haven't had a manager in place like him since Fergie. This is the type of manager that you should want to play for simply because he wants the best from every player.

 

[Foxbatt]

Anyone expecting much this year should be realistic. I don't think even ETH thought that Eriksen was going to be so important.

 

[jameyzane]

It takes some self inspection to comment here these days. Everything I have to say is going to be in hindsight. No one, absolutely no one knew how that team will play yesterday. I believe 99% of Einstein's here going on about tactics and players were extremely confident we will give our best even though we will lose when the lineup showed. So if you are not jobless, take no heed to all the blames and "the manager was poor" talk and get back to other things because you'll be wasting time arguing with people who know no better.

 

[captaincantona]

7 games in and this place is the usual madhouse.

I have full faith in Erik.
Never thought we would win every game after the 4 wins.
He will keep thinking and tinkering with players and tactics.
One thing is certain. He will will accept no substitute for total commitment from the players.

Liverpool play Arsenal and City in the next two matches.

As Fergie used to say. We kick on.

Who said anything about not giving him time. Is this a blind support only thread or are we allowed constructively discuss the many errors the man made yesterday?

He was naive. We were embarrassed completely. It’s fine to discuss that. I love ETH, his mentality seems top notch and he has made excellent decisions with Shaw, Maguire and Ronaldo. I fully support him. But he got yesterday massively wrong. We are not in a position to take the game to any top side. Slow and steady wins the race for me.

 

[Red Dreams]

Who said anything about not giving him time. Is this a blind support only thread or are we allowed constructively discuss the many errors the man made yesterday?

He was naive. We were embarrassed completely. It’s fine to discuss that. I love ETH, his mentality seems top notch and he has made excellent decisions with Shaw, Maguire and Ronaldo. I fully support him. But he got yesterday massively wrong. We are not in a position to take the game to any top side. Slow and steady wins the race for me.

Hindsight is always 20/20.

 

[Van Piorsing]

He needs from his players to go on a winning run that will steady the boat. Two heavy beatings already and goal difference on a minus. Win majority of games at least to late October and then try to have good November and December which has fairly average in difficulty fixtures and then we can have positivity based on heavier proof.

Luck with injuries / fitness from certain players could help massively.

 

[Foxbatt]

Yes he could have gone ultra defensive but I don't think we would have got a point out of them yesterday. Not when we didn't have a match fit Martial. I don't think playing Fred was going to make any difference. Eriksen was our best player upto now and Bruno could always create something. Sancho was playing decent and you need Rashford because of his pace. Whom would you replace in the side?
Could our players be more sensible and not let the space be exploited? Of course at this level they have to be.

 

[DutchSerb]

Who said anything about not giving him time. Is this a blind support only thread or are we allowed constructively discuss the many errors the man made yesterday?

There's some people here that have called for his head since the day he was hired. On matchday some called him an amateur, fraud, not built for the EPL bla bla. One can discuss everything with solid opinions and facts. Comments like that are everything but.