Westminster Politics

Reiver

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GuybrushThreepwood said:
I have no enthusiasm for Labour, and find them to be underwhelming , vacuous and uninspiring. But ultimately the Tories are so dangerous and so incompetent across the board, getting them out at the next election is just too important IMO. Another 5 years of Tory rule and chaos would be uttterly catastrophic for the country, public services etc. Plus I like my local Labour MP, and so am happy to vote for him personally. It's sad reality of British politics that many voters couldn't name who their local MP is without looking it up.

I wasn't old enough to remember the Tories being booted out in 1997 properly, but back then they had least had serious people like John Major and Ken Clarke at the helm. Clearly they were ndeeply unpopular given the scale of the defeat, but I can't imagine Major and Clarke were anywhere near as bad as the current Tory hierachy.
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I feel the same about Labour but underwhelming, vacuous and uninspiring is a definite upgrade on what we've had for years now.
Major and Clarke, whilst I disagreed with their politics, are a cut above anything the Tory party currently have, arguably any party. They were the last of the politicians to be regarded as "big beasts".
 

GuybrushThreepwood

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Reiver said:
I feel the same about Labour but underwhelming, vacuous and uninspiring is a definite upgrade on what we've had for years now.
Major and Clarke, whilst I disagreed with their politics, are a cut above anything the Tory party currently have, arguably any party. They were the last of the politicians to be regarded as "big beasts".
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Definitely. When it’s a ‘meh’ or even disappointing option in Labour vs. downright dangerous, institutionally corrupt, morally bankrupt and completely incompetent option in the Tories, it's a no-brainer for me. As an absolute worse case scenario, Labour if they win the next GE (I'm not prepared to say it's a done deal until I see an Exit poll) will be not particularly good in office but still nowhere near as bad as the Tories are and have been for the last 14 years. Now i certainly hope they'll be far better than that, and actually deliver numerous positive changes, but still I think the view that Labour governments are always better than the Tories one.

For example the worst thing that happened under a Labour government in my lifetime was the catostrophic decision to join in with the invasion of Iraq. I was 12 at the time and joined local (in Blackburn where the local MP Jack Straw was the foreign secretary at the time) and national protests against it, and still think it was a travesty. I'm not wanting to trivialising that. Had the Tories (who enthusiastically supported that decision) been in power at the time, not only would the UK still have gone along with Bush and joined the invasion, but there's a strong chance that they wouldn't have even tried to persuade him to seek a UN second resolution, and so it would have started even earlier. And of course unlike Labour, they wouldn't have significantly reduced child poverty, hospital waiting times, introduced the national minimum wage (which they opposed) etc.

I've seen the point raised that even if we hate what Thatcher stood for (I'm not old enough to remember or have lived through her time in power but with my political views I definiely would have been a very strong critic), she was a successful PM in terms of actually achieving her vision for the country (regardless of whether people like or dislike that vision). But the Tories since 2010 certainly can't say that - they've downright failed to deliver many of the things they've wanted.
 

Fluctuation0161

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TwoSheds said:
How was Iraq outside Blair's control? If you genuinely believe that you're unhinged. Same goes for Cameron with Brexit and Truss with whatever the feck that was. A competent and/or non-criminal leader doesn't make those mistakes. Problems of their own making. Small boats too tbh, shockingly enough closing the legal migration routes leads to illegal migration. He didn't start the calamitous handling of immigration but he is steering his small boat over the same cliff.
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I thought exactly the same. They were not faultless, they were instrumental.
 

Pexbo

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MegadrivePerson said:
If the Tories drop to 1% of the seats at the next election I will laugh so hard I may end up in a coma!

Another Canada 93? Tory Sunak critics fear extinction-level election result | Conservatives | The Guardian
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I would love to see it but it won’t happen.

As a youngster I used to think that there was a silent majority of people who thought the same as me and it was just tribalism or the media that managed to get them to vote Tory.

It’s just not the case though, we live in a very conservative county and it’s embedded into people that way of thinking. Thats been embedded by the media for sure but that’s just the way it is. Most of the country are centre right. Most of the country will vote against their own interests because they only recognise voting in their own interests as also voting in the interests of other people and they absolutely do not like to do that. Especially when a lot of those people are a different colour to them or live in a council house and have four children.
 

Adisa

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I know there's a thread but wanted to put this here. The kind of people we are dealing with.
 

Eplel

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MegadrivePerson said:
If the Tories drop to 1% of the seats at the next election I will laugh so hard I may end up in a coma!

Another Canada 93? Tory Sunak critics fear extinction-level election result | Conservatives | The Guardian
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Pexbo said:
I would love to see it but it won’t happen.

As a youngster I used to think that there was a silent majority of people who thought the same as me and it was just tribalism or the media that managed to get them to vote Tory.

It’s just not the case though, we live in a very conservative county and it’s embedded into people that way of thinking. Thats been embedded by the media for sure but that’s just the way it is. Most of the country are centre right. Most of the country will vote against their own interests because they only recognise voting in their own interests as also voting in the interests of other people and they absolutely do not like to do that. Especially when a lot of those people are a different colour to them or live in a council house and have four children.
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A politician once explained how they approach demographics:

70% are considered stonewalled and will not change their opinion no matter how many times they're proven wrong (e.g. brexiters). These are rarely worth trying to win over in a polarised subject (but you risk of losing them to similar parties)

20% are opinionated and educated on politics and can be won over with good politics

10% are considered indifferent and will often will not even bother to vote.



Based on that it's highly unlikely that every single Tory will stop being a Tory, and they will always get a relatively strong percentage.


Hence why it's better to focus on the new generations if you want to win votes.
 

711

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Eplel said:
A politician once explained how they approach demographics:

70% are considered stonewalled and will not change their opinion no matter how many times they're proven wrong (e.g. brexiters). These are rarely worth trying to win over in a polarised subject (but you risk of losing them to similar parties)

20% are opinionated and educated on politics and can be won over with good politics

10% are considered indifferent and will often will not even bother to vote.



Based on that it's highly unlikely that every single Tory will stop being a Tory, and they will always get a relatively strong percentage.


Hence why it's better to focus on the new generations if you want to win votes.
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Thinking only 10% are indifferent and 'often' will not even bother to vote does not fill me with confidence in their opinions to be honest.
 

Buster15

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Jericholyte2

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William Windsor enters the Israel-Hamas debate, gets chewed out by all of the…Monarchists!?!?!?




 

That'sHernandez

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Drainy said:
Wasn't performatively drinking milk an alt-right dogwhistle at one point?
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The milk glass thing is I think. There was an MP who carried a bottle of milk around for a bit as well, but I don't think that was a dogwhistle.
 

Ekkie Thump

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WTF is going on in the Commons? Absolute shitshow right now. Everybody's a fecking baboon.

SNP have apparently walked out. Half the Tories have walked out. Everyone left is shouting at everyone else. Nobody seems clear what motions are capable of being voted on. Speaker's objectivity is being questioned. It's pretty entertaining, but a complete disgrace.

Edit: There is now a vote to enable the Commons to sit in private (ie hide this embarrassment). BBC: "If successful the public galleries will be emptied and the cameras for broadcasting will be turned off". :lol:
 
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DanH

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Dobba said:
Starmer blowing up holes in (what passes for) British democracy to save himself from having parliament vote to describe the things he said Israel had the right to do as collective punishment :lol:
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Is a stupid take.
 

Smores

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He's a terrible speaker and the decision and justification makes no sense. Whole thing is a pantomime though.
 
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