[MattofManchester]

Is he competing with Bale to see who can do the least amount of work and involvement on the pitch these days?

His level is ridiculously bad and shouldn't be tolerated. He doesn't even seem to have any desire to improve it either. He doesn't even try.

But Ole said he's playing well so we'll keep watching him unbalance and stink up the front line.

 

[hungrywing]

I don't understand why we gave him a 250K contract if that's what it is? Who else was offering him that?

Woody and Judge. It's that brutally (unfortunately for us) simple. TLDR that contract (and all the other bad ones) came from a mixture of fear and desperation and ignorance. And these are things you do not want in your tiny print shop let alone in a frocking multibillion-dollar organization. (Also, remember one Joel "He's our Pele" Glazer.)

People like Woody and Judge aren't uncommon in ultra-high tier executive management, ESPECIALLY if they've been sort of nepotizzed in like in Woody's case. These people like to flash money and act the big dogs without understanding all the subtle things that the actual big dogs do. "Come here and work for us, this is the Disneyworld of ____________. You'll have all the money and resources you could ever want," etc. etc. Often, they don't actually understand the field or even what it is you do. (Remember the Meunier story?) They just hear that you're 'hot stuff' and want to be able to talk at cocktail parties about the mega-deals they concluded. That's LITERALLY it. They're moving money. Big money. They're THE BIG DOGS in charge at MANCHESTER UNITED. How's it hanging at your end there, little buddy.

Rule of thumb, if someone wants power, watch them carefully for narcissistic traits. Woodward is deeply deeply deeply narcissistic. He shows almost all the markers for the condition and shows some of them quite severely. Just like all things, a little bit can be healthy, a lot is bad. For example, Woody's Schweinsteiger-shivers-down-the-spine quote and the Trumpian 'Nobody knows more about __________ than me' are actually the same marker at work, just a different manifestation in terms of subject and depth.

Deep insecurities lead to large overcompensation. Literally overcompensation in the cases of Rooney, Pogba, Sanchez, Martial, Rashford, Shaw, Lukaku, DDG, and all the player contracts between 2013 and around last year (when there seems to have been a shift) and even the bumper contracts for Greenwood and Williams for example.

There's nothing wrong with paying competitive wages. There's a huge problem with trying to act like 'the big guy' at a 'big club' and handing out 'competitive wages' because you're afraid that if you don't, then the Reals/Barcas/PSG/Bayern/Citys of the world will enter player negotiations with 'Look at them; a player like you shouldn't even consider them. They don't even pay their top players like a top club should.'

Anyway, in Woody and Judge's case, all the chronic overpaying is a result of 1. this fear, 2. ignorance of their field and 3. the earlier-mentioned over-compensatory desire to BE A BIG DOG (which is actually from a desire to not have to feel #1.).

And then there's the whole matter of what it says about Martial that he accepted that 250k/week wage.

 

[OrcaFat]

Posted it a couple of times. Overpayment.

This is what 'believing your own press' looks like in certain personalities; it doesn't always manifest as boasting.

TLDR if you overpay a 'good' personality they'll often burn out trying to do "extra". Overpay a 'bad' personality and they'll turn toxic - in the vast majority of cases, not even intentionally - in extreme cases acting like they own the place, in more subtle cases thinking other people should be doing more for them, sulking when things don't just magically fall into their lap and creating ripple effects from there etc.

Obviously the underlying key factor is the personality itself. But that's why narcissists like Woodward and Judge throwing around Pogbian contracts in overcompensatory behavior is very bad for any organization - it trickles down through the organization causing secondary and tertiary effects.

Interesting. So, if I understand you, Martial is overpaid and his behaviour is a result of being paid more than he is worth?

And perhaps the root of this is that Woodward and Judge are overpaid and they also are behaving in a way that is destructive to the company, as a result of being paid more than they are worth?

This apple is rotten to the core, if so. Nobody’s going to get a pay cut after all.

 

[Bobcat]

Caf’s favorite scapegoat. Blamed for everything when nearly everyone plays shocking football.

He has 4 goals (two in the rout vs Soton) and 5 assists in 1318 minutes in the league. A goal involvement every 146 minutes. Thats diabolical and even more so when you consider we have generally been playing decent in attack this season.

Hes not the only one playing badly but hes not pulling his weight at all

 

[Cassidy]

He has 4 goals (two in the rout vs Soton) and 5 assists in 1318 minutes in the league. A goal involvement every 146 minutes. Thats diabolical and even more so when you consider we have generally been playing decent in attack this season.

Hes not the only one playing badly but hes not pulling his weight at all

Agree. Nothing will be said about Cavani air kicking yet another sitter though. Hes so great

 

[Red_toad]

Needs to be Benched for a while and be an impact sub. Looks lost on the pitch and I'm struggling to see any desire to improve that from him.
I’m so over him being racially abused on twatter etc for his performances, it’s now just a game to the morons what do it.

 

[OrcaFat]

Agree. Nothing will be said about Cavani air kicking yet another sitter though. Hes so great

Cavani probably shouldn’t play consecutive games. Should be kept fresh and keen by resting him every other game, giving Martial a chance to ease back to form in the centre.

Having said all that, they have different styles so unless Martial is going to reinvent himself, the team will have to play a different way every time we swap the striker.

The stats show we have no problem scoring goals but there is a worsening issue at CF and by the summer it could be a transfer priority. To add to the other priorities. Aaaargh.

 

[Bobcat]

Agree. Nothing will be said about Cavani air kicking yet another sitter though. Hes so great

Cavani was also bad yesterday. In fact id say easily his worst game in a United shirt, and i also agree his contributions are a bit overrated on here. Still has no bearing on how Martial is doing though

 

[DanNistelrooy]

Heart doesn't look in it. Between him and Rashford we have 2 forwards so out of form in terms basic decision making. Greenwood very hard done by not to be starting

 

[Kostov]

Absolute shambles this guy, maybe someone needs to remind him that he is 25 and should deliver not act like the 19 year old inconsistent kid we bought from Monaco. At this rate some kid from the reserves should take his place in the squad.

 

[simplyared]

Absolute waste of space yesterday. End of!

 

[Hughes35]

Probably my least liked player tbh. Always looks like he is moping around, his body language is atrocious.

He's had more than enough chances now and has been here for years. It is 100% time to try and get rid to free up funds for a player that wants to be here and can add something to the squad.

 

[2 man midfield]

Probably my least liked player tbh. Always looks like he is moping around, his body language is atrocious.

He's had more than enough chances now and has been here for years. It is 100% time to try and get rid to free up funds for a player that wants to be here and can add something to the squad.

I’m at the end of my tether as well. If we had a player like Barnes on the left instead, I think we’d be better off.

 

[MiceOnMeth]

Absolute shambles this guy, maybe someone needs to remind him that he is 25 and should deliver not act like the 19 year old inconsistent kid we bought from Monaco. At this rate some kid from the reserves should take his place in the squad.

He was genuinely our best player in his first season. Our whole game plan was just give the ball to Martial. Sad how's it ended for him as we all saw the potential but he just doesn't have the mentality for a club like United.

 

[kouroux]

I’m at the end of my tether as well. If we had a player like Barnes on the left instead, I think we’d be better off.

I gave up on him yesterday I just cannot take it anymore.

 

[DomM]

Both Martial and Rashford average around 10 Premier league goals a season, not great, certainly not good enough to win the title, and coupled with their fairly lazy attitudes, it doesn't make for a great combination.

 

[youngrell]

Needs to sit out for a while. I keep waiting for his form to return but it looks like an impossible task.

It seems his game has evolved into just winning free kicks for us, and that's it. Which is a massive shame because he was a very exciting player at one point and I've been a big fan.

Rashford has been equally as bad, but Marcus seems to have the ability to get an important goal even when he's playing awfully, so he should be taking up the left hand side for the time being. We need some competition for these guys. I'm sure Ole sees this.

 

[Silas]

It's painful to watch him these days. Seems to be extra pointless on the wing now, so we should limit his use to rotating with Cavani. Doesn't make sense to start him at the expense of Greenwood who's actually looked good recently.

 

[buckooo1978]

he's having a bad year and he needs to be the one to get himself out of this period of shit performances

I wonder if Cavani arriving has anything to do with it. Either way the issue is Martial's and he will need to improve to survive

Europa League on Thursday gives him another opportunity.... I hope he starts to take it

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Agree. Nothing will be said about Cavani air kicking yet another sitter though. Hes so great

Cavani isn't all that but then he was signed as backup but is becoming our first choice striker. That's living proof of how bad Martial has been this year.

 

[hungrywing]

Interesting. So, if I understand you, Martial is overpaid and his behaviour is a result of being paid more than he is worth?

The underlying personality matters first and foremost, but yes. That 'lack of effort' is exactly what overpaying looks like in certain people. It is not always malicious.

Martial: Obviously some people smarter than me thought I'm worth it just doing what I was doing. How am I supposed to know what they based it on. Maybe the other guys should work harder? I'm running a little bit more than last season. I'm definitely working harder than when I signed my deal, so I'm doing more than what they thought I was worth. Shrug.

And perhaps the root of this is that Woodward and Judge are overpaid and they also are behaving in a way that is destructive to the company, as a result of being paid more than they are worth?

That, one could argue in a sort of chicken vs egg fashion.

I'd argue that it's the underlying personality first that's the problem - they overpay themselves because they're narcissistic* and it's the narcissism that's destructive to the organization. There's a serious possibility that we're being run at least partially to provide narcissistic supply for Woodward.

But yes, Woodward and Judge being overpaid can in and of itself damage the organization. AKA behind-the-scenes talk between other executives a-la "Look at those morons out of their depth but paying themselves like they're winning the PL and CL every year." The danger then becomes having a giant 'KICK ME' sign on their backs of their own making; other execs/agents being afraid that not fleecing Woodward/Judge will make them look incompetent/weak amongst their peers, i.e. You dumbass; even we got them to cough up 100k/week. You have to get your boy to at least 250k/week or you're going to lose out on some business in the future, I think.

If Woodward runs the place as a cash cow first for long enough, sooner or later other executives/agents start seeing it that way as well.

There's a scene in the movie Kingdom of Heaven that encapsulates Woodward's personality perfectly. In it, the original king of Jerusalem says "I am Jerusalem" as he dispenses the law, meaning: "I am not 'me'. I am the collective will of the people. There is no 'me.'" The villain sees this, and projects his own self onto it and wildly misinterprets it. Later on, the villain becomes king and repeats this line, but he means: "ME, I am Jerusalem."

That is exactly Woodward's attitude towards the club and it was especially prominent in the early days. Quotes like Watch this space. Disneyworld for adults. Schweinsteiger-spine-tingles. The way he sacked Rio. All these were dinner-bells to skilled manipulators who know how to prey on narcissists.

This apple is rotten to the core, if so. Nobody’s going to get a pay cut after all.

Yes, it is. But on the second sentence, not necessarily. They're still money-men and will be able to adjust to financial realities if necessary. But those core narcissistic needs to 'be the big man' and to delay embracing/to ignore the fact that they don't know anything about football compared to other big clubs' executive structures doesn't just go away.

We are swimming against the current as long as Woodward is around.

*TLDR crash couse: narcissim isn't necessarily Trumpian braggadocio. It's an individually varying mixture of fear (terrified of hearing they're not as good as they think they are), ignorance (don't know that they're not as good as they think they are), and attention-craving (want to be constantly reassured how good they are). From there, you get endless combinations.

 

[Cassidy]

Cavani isn't all that but then he was signed as backup but is becoming our first choice striker. That's living proof of how bad Martial has been this year.

Agree on Martial as I said. As long as we know as a side that we need a new striker this summer as a priority.

 

[elmo]

The anger he showed when the ref blew for the half time was the only noticable thing he did other than walking out for the kick off and getting subbed off.

 

[KiD MoYeS]

Has been afforded enough chances to pull up his socks and should no longer be starting games. I'm unsure if something is going on for him at a personal level but his performance level has fallen off a cliff. He won't get picked for France again, or at least he shouldn't.

 

[OrcaFat]

The underlying personality matters first and foremost, but yes. That 'lack of effort' is exactly what overpaying looks like in certain people. It is not always malicious.

Martial: Obviously some people smarter than me thought I'm worth it just doing what I was doing. How am I supposed to know what they based it on. Maybe the other guys should work harder? I'm running a little bit more than last season. I'm definitely working harder than when I signed my deal, so I'm doing more than what they thought I was worth. Shrug.



That, one could argue in a sort of chicken vs egg fashion.

I'd argue that it's the underlying personality first that's the problem - they overpay themselves because they're narcissistic* and it's the narcissism that's destructive to the organization. There's a serious possibility that we're being run at least partially to provide narcissistic supply for Woodward.

But yes, Woodward and Judge being overpaid can in and of itself damage the organization. AKA behind-the-scenes talk between other executives a-la "Look at those morons out of their depth but paying themselves like they're winning the PL and CL every year." The danger then becomes having a giant 'KICK ME' sign on their backs of their own making; other execs/agents being afraid that not fleecing Woodward/Judge will make them look incompetent/weak amongst their peers, i.e. You dumbass; even we got them to cough up 100k/week. You have to get your boy to at least 250k/week or you're going to lose out on some business in the future, I think.

If Woodward runs the place as a cash cow first for long enough, sooner or later other executives/agents start seeing it that way as well.

There's a scene in the movie Kingdom of Heaven that encapsulates Woodward's personality perfectly. In it, the original king of Jerusalem says "I am Jerusalem" as he dispenses the law, meaning: "I am not 'me'. I am the collective will of the people. There is no 'me.'" The villain sees this, and projects his own self onto it and wildly misinterprets it. Later on, the villain becomes king and repeats this line, but he means: "ME, I am Jerusalem."

That is exactly Woodward's attitude towards the club and it was especially prominent in the early days. Quotes like Watch this space. Disneyworld for adults. Schweinsteiger-spine-tingles. The way he sacked Rio. All these were dinner-bells to skilled manipulators who know how to prey on narcissists.



Yes, it is. But on the second sentence, not necessarily. They're still money-men and will be able to adjust to financial realities if necessary. But those core narcissistic needs to 'be the big man' and to delay embracing/to ignore the fact that they don't know anything about football compared to other big clubs' executive structures doesn't just go away.

We are swimming against the current as long as Woodward is around.

*TLDR crash couse: narcissim isn't necessarily Trumpian braggadocio. It's an individually varying mixture of fear (terrified of hearing they're not as good as they think they are), ignorance (don't know that they're not as good as they think they are), and attention-craving (want to be constantly reassured how good they are). From there, you get endless combinations.

I suppose all clubs are like that and all have some executives and players with the same problems.

What I’m taking from this analysis (which was fun to read), is that you have to be careful not to pay people more than they are worth. That sounds like a truism but it’s probably not as easy as it sounds. We’ve certainly dished out some crazy contracts in recent years.

Kingdom of Heaven - good film, saw it again recently.

 

[united for life]

Is he competing with Bale to see who can do the least amount of work and involvement on the pitch these days?

His level is ridiculously bad and shouldn't be tolerated. He doesn't even seem to have any desire to improve it either. He doesn't even try.

But Ole said he's playing well so we'll keep watching him unbalance and stink up the front line.

martial should look at 33 year old cavani and be embarrassed. The problem with martial is that most of the time he seems uninterested, i never see any urgency in him. He is skilled, but that is not enough. His work late is terrible. Given his form, he should be no where near the starting 11

 

[hmchan]

Pretty convinced Lingard could offer more than Martial nowadays.

 

[Nou_Camp99]

Ole really has given him enough chances to find some form. Either up top or from the left he's looked poor.

2 good seasons out of 5 and half at the club is just not good enough.

 

[Foxbatt]

He is such a talented player there must be something wrong. He is also not brainless and his decision making has been good before this season.

 

[Silverman]

I have no problem with a player going through a rough patch but it's his attitude. Its just not good enough. His work ethic is embarrassing at times.
If that doesn't improve drastically (and it's something that can easily be worked on) then Id happily sell.

 

[lex talionis]

Tony looks a broken man. Poor attitude on the pitch, no joy whatsoever in his game and looks like he has something else in life gnawing away at him.

It may seem cruel, but the best thing for everyone is to sell him.

 

[Hughes35]

I’m at the end of my tether as well. If we had a player like Barnes on the left instead, I think we’d be better off.

Agreed. He would be so easy to replace.

Either a talented player that has an impact or a workhorse type would add so much more than Martial does.

 

[Bobcat]

Should 100% be benched in favour of Greenwood on Thursday. If he starts against RS and delivers yet another stinker i am going to lose faith in Ole. Either that or Martial has nudes of him

 

[Cassidy]

Sell at end of the season

 

[Matt851]

He's never been this bad for this long, I'm blaming the schedule.

This might work if he hadn't been horrendous from the beginning of the season

 

[Yorkeontop]

This might work if he hadn't been horrendous from the beginning of the season

Your point further supports my theory though,no?

 

[Matt851]

Your point further supports my theory though,no?

Not really and frankly its a terrible excuse. A busy schedule doesn't excuse not being able to trap a ball all season, or putting in even half of an acceptable level of effort

He has also had quite a few games on the bench this season so shouldn't be tired

 

[Yorkeontop]

Not really and frankly its a terrible excuse. A busy schedule doesn't excuse not being able to trap a ball all season, or putting in even half of an acceptable level of effort

He has also had quite a few games on the bench this season so shouldn't be tired

The current schedule could affect one adversely beyond the psychical I'd argue, these are strange days (no fans etc).

 

[Trex]

I think Martial problem is his attitude,he has never performed well with another top class striker in the squad,he's two best seasons with United we didn't have a senior out and out striker in the squad, in his debut season Van persie had left we only had a poor version of Rooney who was playing in midfield and Memphis Depay who was also a young signing from abroad.The three seasons that followed we had Zlatan and then Lukaku so he struggled,last season we had him,Rashford and Greenwood sort of like his first year.He produces his best without competition.I think if he feels his place as a 'key man' is under threat he totally collapse.He could thrive in a club were his place would be guaranteed just for his sheer talent but not in a competitive environment like Man utd

 

[klayton88]

I can deal with a player being in a slump but it's the fact he just strolls about, throws himself to the floor like a stroppy kid at the slightest bit of contact, doesn't press and doesn't track back. He's the epitome of a passenger at this point. It's not the form that annoys me or how far he's regressed it's his attitude.