He has to, how can you keep spending this kind of money, playing shit, not getting a tune out of any of the players, persisting with players in bad form and getting hammered on a weekly basis. It's a recipe for being sacked, especially if you don't make the Champions League.
Erik ten Hag - Manchester United manager
- Thread starter sewey89
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
Yes generally when managers WIN trophies I tend to look upon them more favourably than when they LOSE them. Call me batshit crazy but that’s just me.
Wait, what? "Yeah but finals are semi finals" are what the Ole fanatics used. ETH has actually won something... in his first season.
Why is any criticism of performance deflected into Ole discussion by certain posters?
Because about 3 or 4 posters decided to bring up Ole as a stick to beat ETH
Can you not go back and read a few pages of posts ffs.
So all it takes is a penalty save from De Gea to change your mind on Ole the manager. Alrighty then. Presumably if we hadn't beaten Newcastle in the final, like we didn't today, you'd have a different opinion of ETH then?
You realise in cup competitions there are variables beyond the control of the manager yes?
Like getting Notts Forest in a semi final rather than Chelsea or City? You don't think that plays a part in advancing to a final?
This is nothing to do with ETH by the way or what I think of him.
It's to do with how a fan/pundit asseses a manager. As if they're a puppet master, the controller of all things.
We had a lovely route to the league cup final and. In the final our opposition were actually the better team. But we won anyway as it sometimes happens.
Clinging onto that as a major sign of progress, as a huge difference maker between this manager amd the last is serious short termism.
The league is the truth teller of where a team is and on that count we aren't much better.
He reached one final in 3 years. Ten Hag reached a final in his first 8 months and won it.
And Ole was the one who decided not to change De Gea before the pens despite his well known awful record in them.
Finishing 2nd with all mighty 74 points and losing the EL final was basically the peak of Ole's reign. No one (except his fanboys) thought he has the ability to achieve anything more than that. We're currently top 4, won a trophy and in two other competitions and we feel like we're just beginning under Ten Hag with a lot more to be accomplished in the future. That's the main difference.
Oh please about Weghorst. Arsenal had Jesus injured so they played Nketiah who was doing alright at first but it became apparent, he wasn't good enough to start regularly. What did they do ? They simply benched him and adapted the rest of it.
This notion that Weghorst has to start because Martial is absolute nonsense. If a player is shite, consistently shite for a long period of time, you just don't play him as an automatic starter.
I don't really care what Ole's fanatics used but that same thinking is being used now. We won the league cup with a piss easy run and average performance in the final. What are we really taking from that? Is it really significant?
I'm glad we did win it but because I think it really helps a manager early doors. Gives them breathing space and a bit of protection. Ole cocked up rotating players for a couple of the semis.
He also got Chelsea and City instead of Notts Forest. Variables play a big role in cups.
If we beat them in normal time like we should have them I’d have a different opinion on Ole the manager, but sure it was all down to the goalie not saving the penalties
I think we all agree,
Ten Hag is a good coach.
Being good enough in EPL is not good enough, ask Klopp.
You need to be top class, to compete with Pep. Pep is the benchmark.
EPL is a result based competition.
You can't auto pilot in EPL.
Without control in EPL you won't win the title as opponents run more and are more physical meaning you need to have more of the ball to create chances after chances.
Now to where United are,
1. Our defensive structure is Casemiro induced.
2. Our goal scoring threat is RASHFORD only.
3. We don't control games even with Casemiro and Eriksen in the team. Esp big games, we are still 30-40% possession team.
4. The structure of the team gets exposed extremely bad in big away games. This problem has been here for so long. As of today, now. Away to all top 10 teams WE HAVE WON A SINGLE GAME.
Fulham - Garnacho 93 minute winner.
the rest are losses.
Aston Villa 3-1 Loss
Liverpool 7-0 Loss
Brenford 4-0 Loss
Brighton - to play.
Spurs - to play.
Newcastle 2-0 Loss
City 6-3 Loss
Arsenal 3-2 Loss
If you add
Position 11.Chelsea last minute equalizer
Position 12. Palace last minute equalizer.
5. This is not good enough, not matter how much we try to pamper it.
6. We are just 3 points ahead of Ralf season, and Ralf was an Interim Manager. Interim Manager. Ralf had no Casemiro Eriksen Licha Or Antony. Leave alone signing 4 players of his own.
We have a goal difference of 4.
We have shipped 7 more goals than Chelsea, 3 more than Westham. Even Liverpool have shipped 4 goals less than us. Can't be westham has better defenders than us, it's just the team set-up
7. Not to ring alarm bells but Ten Hag has the change the set-up of the team, we are still the same same team as Ole sadly. 70-75 points team.
8. This season we can give him a pass, but next season if we don't control games better sadly he will sacked no matter how much we love him because this away games will be like this season thrashings+being overrun.
9. He needs to find a way of us controlling football matches either through coaching or through new players. It's simple. Either he achieves that or he will be out as sad as it may be.
Hopefully he has learnt alot since the season started, I trust him completely he will solve the biggest issue. The midfield control issue.
We wish him well but he must maintain the high standards he sets to everyone else to himself also.
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Trossard says hello
Well like I said if one game or one moment can change your opinion of a mangers ability you're doing it wrong.
If we had City in the semi instead of Forest, lets be real, we likely don't make the final.
Does your opinion of ETH then change?
And we aint going to do much better than "might 74 points" this season either.
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That's my point. We have options, obviously nowhere near as good as Trossard to bring off the bench but we never try them. All we do is stick with a terrible player who we know in advance who won't score, won't assist, won't win headers and would be very easy to handle for CBs. At least play Rashford up top and adapt the rest.
It's absolutely mad to me how ETH has been this loyal to Weghorst, it's counterproductive
You say that like 74pts isn't that great. How many do you think we will finish on this year? I don't think it will be too far away from 74 myself. We only have 50 right now with 33 left to play for.
Yeah the club gave him a problem there, remember Ronaldo anyone?
There also a team that’s been together longer and had a manager longer.
All the stuff we thought we'd never see again - intensity, focus, fighting every little battle - has seemingly evaporated again. Today was dreadful
He has done good job here so far but there are still some red flags that I hope will eventually go away, and the major one are our performances away from home and our games against good teams in general.
Spurs at OT is our only league performance of the season against a top half team where you could honestly say we were significantly better than them.
The difference between our league campaign last year is that we have been able to consistently dispose of bottom 10 teams at home and got quite lucky against some of them away.
Spurs at OT is our only league performance of the season against a top half team where you could honestly say we were significantly better than them.
The difference between our league campaign last year is that we have been able to consistently dispose of bottom 10 teams at home and got quite lucky against some of them away.
Think the away form really shows exactly why Conte and Mourinho go about football as they do, especially if their teams are chock full of mediocrity.
Assuming we dont sign enough quality players in the summer (which we won't unless we have Qatari owners soon)... If we want to improve next season we have to start going to these away grounds and shutting up shop. Full Oleball, no high pressing. Counters from deep and majorly improving set pieces.
Wont be pretty, but if we'd done that this season we'd at the very least be 3-6 points better off.
Assuming we dont sign enough quality players in the summer (which we won't unless we have Qatari owners soon)... If we want to improve next season we have to start going to these away grounds and shutting up shop. Full Oleball, no high pressing. Counters from deep and majorly improving set pieces.
Wont be pretty, but if we'd done that this season we'd at the very least be 3-6 points better off.
Plenty of ways to win that game without going to penalties. Poor game management from Ole. Barely worth taking about.
The same City that were knocked out by Nathan Jones' bottom of the league Southampton?
Two ordinary CBs…Why have they conceded the least goals or very close to it I wonder.
The how and why's don't matter in this context. The point is how much stock do you put in a manager winning one trohpy. A second tier trophy at that.
Does your opinion of Ole's ability change if we win that one final. If Bruno smashes one in from 30 yards and we win is Ole suddenly better.
Equally if we lose to Newcastle in the final. Perfectly possible. They just battered us today. Does your opinion of ETH's ability change?
Your thoughts on each manager shouldn't change in either circumstance. A cup run or a one off game here and there is borderline irrelevant when assessing a manager.
Ole didn't get sacked because he didn't win a cup. He got sacked because he tanked in the league.
Just back from the latest away debacle. I put Liverpool down as one of those things and tried to move on - but as soon as I read Luke Shaw’s post match comments about ‘not good enough’ and the usual ‘we know we need to do better’ horse manure that I’ve taken to venting my spleen here…
1. Mctominay - enough is enough….
2. Weghorst - worst CF I have seen in a United shirt - and I’m from the era of Terry Gibson/Peter davenport/ Garry Birtles.
3. Shaw and Dalot - new contracts?
4. Sabitzer - not a squad player - wished he were as he seems a good guy
5. De gea - if ten hag wants to play out from the back, never going to happen with his footwork.
6. Antony - I think I have never seen such a one footed player - could forgive it it wasn’t that we have paid so much and he delivers so little so often
7. Sancho - very concerned this young man is a busted flush
8. Fernandes - captain? Do me a favour - body language appalling when we went one nil down - could see it from the heavens of the third tier let alone at pitch level
9. Martinez - class - love the guy
10. Varane - as for Martinez but just too bloody brittle - signed 7 years too late
11. Martial - expect him injured by this time next week
12. Rashford - fair play has had a vey good season but all the signs point to the regression back to standard rashford is already underway
13. Ten Hag - the above players bar Martinez and Varane - will chuck him under the bus (through mediocrity rather than spite) as they did the 3 previous incumbents but he needs to get a tune out of Antony somehow and end the weghorst monopoly on the CF role - it never really worked but the wheels have well and truly come off now and he needs benching.
Martial staying fit, as unlikely as that seems, should end that particular option.
After such a promising start to his united career I hope Ten Hag can sort it out, but the signs are worryingly showing again as to how much progress we still need to make to become a good team again - top 4 is essential this season but seems far from secure on our recent showings.
Ah well - hopefully 2 home games will paper the cracks again but away from home we have been abject this season too often for it to be dismissed…
1. Mctominay - enough is enough….
2. Weghorst - worst CF I have seen in a United shirt - and I’m from the era of Terry Gibson/Peter davenport/ Garry Birtles.
3. Shaw and Dalot - new contracts?
4. Sabitzer - not a squad player - wished he were as he seems a good guy
5. De gea - if ten hag wants to play out from the back, never going to happen with his footwork.
6. Antony - I think I have never seen such a one footed player - could forgive it it wasn’t that we have paid so much and he delivers so little so often
7. Sancho - very concerned this young man is a busted flush
8. Fernandes - captain? Do me a favour - body language appalling when we went one nil down - could see it from the heavens of the third tier let alone at pitch level
9. Martinez - class - love the guy
10. Varane - as for Martinez but just too bloody brittle - signed 7 years too late
11. Martial - expect him injured by this time next week
12. Rashford - fair play has had a vey good season but all the signs point to the regression back to standard rashford is already underway
13. Ten Hag - the above players bar Martinez and Varane - will chuck him under the bus (through mediocrity rather than spite) as they did the 3 previous incumbents but he needs to get a tune out of Antony somehow and end the weghorst monopoly on the CF role - it never really worked but the wheels have well and truly come off now and he needs benching.
Martial staying fit, as unlikely as that seems, should end that particular option.
After such a promising start to his united career I hope Ten Hag can sort it out, but the signs are worryingly showing again as to how much progress we still need to make to become a good team again - top 4 is essential this season but seems far from secure on our recent showings.
Ah well - hopefully 2 home games will paper the cracks again but away from home we have been abject this season too often for it to be dismissed…
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Yeah.
What would you say to the question I asked in the post you've replied to?
Good post
I was thinking this too. I swear this place never learns when it comes to making rash judgments after a game.
Switching off and taking some time to blow off some steam really helps. Yes ten Hag messed up today but hes accumulated enough for us to show him the benefit of the doubt. Its his first season and new league, what I like is that he always learns something different after a loss and hes not afraid to try new things. Its a rare trait to have in this game and all the best managers have this. I think I read somewhere in an interview that hes pragmatic with his tactics basing it around what the players can do. So unlike other managers he can adapt to the situation instead of implementing his favoured way of playing.
Yes his subs were weird today but I cant get over the amount of times hes got his subs right this season, not to mention the number of goals that have resulted from it. Every manager gets their subs wrongs once in a while. I really think our win in the cup has shown up the mentality of some of these players. Almost like some of them are like dwight yorke i.e. thinking they have done enough after winning a trophy and gone on holiday. This will be new for ten Hag this season, as its the first time hes seen the players reacting after winning something (since we havent won anything in yonks). Ferguson judged his players on their hunger, not to win but to keep winning again and again. I'm sure after our cup win ten Hag will make a mental note of this.
I hope next season with proper backing and the right players he can really show us what he can really do.
Sounds about right.
What I don't understand is Luke Shaw. How can a player be poor, average, good and amazing in the same season.
Why does this guy's level fluctuate so much? I was ready to give up on him before this season but he's shown that Shawberto Carlos purple patch is not a complete fluke.
As for Rashford, even at the best of times this season when he was saving us, his general play is usually poor. He cannot dribble or keep the ball, slows down our attacks and is just quite useless in defence. He needs a Martial at CF and a non-Antony on the right because our creativity is just absolutely non-existent in this current setup.
Ten Hag has been good for getting the best out of some of our players and not signing a load of flops. Other than that (which by the way is a big improvement in a lot of ways) I don’t see much in terms of actual team performance that is an improvement on Ole. We are absolutely awful to watch. Giving the ball away so cheaply so often.
So annoyed that he talked like this is one off. Liverpool one was the one off, New castle couldve easily smashed us 7 if they had been more clinical.
United had one single good game since carabao final. This form is worrying
United had one single good game since carabao final. This form is worrying
No because that's his first season in charge unlike Ole who was 2.5 years in when he reached his first final here. No one expected us to win a cup this year.
Again, these 74 points came after 2.5 years and +300m spending. This is Ten Hag's first season.
The problem is as I said, this was the peak of Ole's reign after ton of money spending and no sane and logical person expected him to do any better than this 74 points and EL final, unlike the current United team.
I mean, very little to add on this, good post.
Very concerning we had two GKs on the bench. How fecking bad is our squad depth??? Need some smart backing from the (potential) new owners to sort this ojt.
Yes
It is a pretty underwhelming return for the amount of money Ole spent in 2 markets.
This is Ten Hag's first season. When he's 2.5 years in and still can't get more than 74 points we can make such comparison.
The 74 points 2nd place finish and EL final was the peak of Ole's reign after +300 spending followed up by a summer which got his spending numbers to +400m just for the team to collapse. Ten Hag already had more trophies than Ole in 8 months time and with a very good chance of equaling his "best ever" points record in the league and possibly win another cup, all in his first season, and the general feeling around the team is that we are going to improve more and not the finishing article yet.
This is the difference. The peak of Ole's reign was simply godawful for United standards.
Understand that and I agree.
But if we draw City in the semi final next year we'd likely not go through to the final either. They're way ahead of us. It's obviously much easier to get to the final when you have Notts Forest in the semi.
My point is cup runs are a fickle way of judging a manager or deciding the difference betweem two managers. There are too many variables at play.
In terms of expecting to win a trohpy. If you were told the run would be Villa ,Burnley and Charlton at home. Followed by Notts Forest in the semi you'd hope we'd at least get to the final yes? Then have at least a 50/50 chance against Newcastle?
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Ole only had two full seasons what are you talking about? The first one he only took over in December and the 4th he was sacked before Christmas. So we can only judge the two full seasons really and right now we are going to be hard pressed to beat one of his totals (74).
We ain't good enough ultimately. Poor recruitment in the summer again. Spending 85m on a winger who is worth 40 at most basically used up our budget and we are paying the price now with Weghorst rather than a competent striker.
That's not entirely true.
We completely outplayed Barcelona with a makeshift team somewhat. We dominated Betis(who gave Real problems).
There were signs of our football progressing in the right direction. It's gone downhill since the Carabao cup final though.