The way people were talking I thought this was the last race of the season. Turns out there are three more so still all to race for even if Max wins today no?
F1 2021 Season
- Thread starter pauldyson1uk
- Start date
I'm not really bothered about whether you made a mistake, we all do. I just wanted the correct figures in play, otherwise in 3 pages time, your incorrect figures become accepted as fact.
I'm not sure if you're trying to make a point with the 'math' comment, if you are I've no idea what it is
My thoughts are:
- Given the amount over the limit, I think it is pretty clear that this wasn’t intentional by Mercedes.
- Unfortunately though I don’t think the amount over matters for punishment. In such a technical sport where there are so many rules and regs which are needed for a whole host of things, you can’t create grey areas. It only complicates things going forward. So without a clear and explainable reason (which even then might not have sufficed), there had to be a penalty.
- I’d be interested though to know if the wing was measured pre-qualifying? And also interested to know if there really is a possibility of damage on the track. At such a small amount, a small crack? Loosening of a pivot? Hitting a curb hard causing something to dislodge ever so slightly? Are these real mechanical possibilities? I have no idea.
- At that amount, it obviously did not impact performance.
For me it’s either a) an error in engineering which means it was off from the start, or b) something caused it on track.
The question of whether it was checked pre qualifying would perhaps help to answer that question. I’m much more sympathetic to the anger of Mercedes if the breached reg was due to damage on the track
- Given the amount over the limit, I think it is pretty clear that this wasn’t intentional by Mercedes.
- Unfortunately though I don’t think the amount over matters for punishment. In such a technical sport where there are so many rules and regs which are needed for a whole host of things, you can’t create grey areas. It only complicates things going forward. So without a clear and explainable reason (which even then might not have sufficed), there had to be a penalty.
- I’d be interested though to know if the wing was measured pre-qualifying? And also interested to know if there really is a possibility of damage on the track. At such a small amount, a small crack? Loosening of a pivot? Hitting a curb hard causing something to dislodge ever so slightly? Are these real mechanical possibilities? I have no idea.
- At that amount, it obviously did not impact performance.
For me it’s either a) an error in engineering which means it was off from the start, or b) something caused it on track.
The question of whether it was checked pre qualifying would perhaps help to answer that question. I’m much more sympathetic to the anger of Mercedes if the breached reg was due to damage on the track
I think the point is depending on todays result, it could be in a situation where Max could finish second behind Hamilton at all the remaining races and still win the title. Anything can happen so it’s obviously not fully over until it is. But it is becoming increasingly improbable.
To be fair, it's obvious then 0.2mm did not drive the Mercedes performance based on Hamiltons performance in sprint quali.
Horner has not specified what he thinks is giving the Mercedes extra speed. He is just saying "he knows". It's ridiculous and vague.
The most likely explanation is the new engine turned up to full power. Hardly indicative of anything dodgy.
Saying it's over is quite obviously a coping mechanism.
Bottas is key to Hamilton being able to make up the gap today and in the next three races. Barring any DQ’s, he’ll need to finish ahead of Max in two of the races I reckon, with Hamilton obviously winning.
Presumably they will fit the new engine to bottas as well next weekend? That will drop him 5 places but if it really is that much better and there are big straights in quatar and Abu Dhabi (not sure about saudi) then quite feasible we get merc 1-2
I have a feeling that red bull are going to continue to protest about what they seem to think is a flexible merc wing
And at some point presumably red bull will introduce their own variant and merc will protest against that...
Probably the fia are going to end up settling the title (which given their decision to sit behind a safety car all gp and give half points at Spa they already to some extent have been quite active in)
I agree with your post. I put math in quotations, as it's obvious it should barely be considered as such.
How much do you propose they should ignore?0.2mm
The FIA are utterly pathetic.
It’s maths, not math!!!
OK I found this really interesting
https://the-race.com/formula-1/gary-anderson-explains-mercedes-suspension-trick/
If true then its the suspension lowering that is effectively stalling the drag making the car quicker on the straight whilst allowing a generally higher downforce for the rest of the circuit
Provided this is mechanically achieved which I'm guessing the fia must have checked it seems perfectly legal
Why are red bull so pissed and why don't they copy it... well apparently they simply can't get the same result due to the high rear rake on the car and that is not really possible to change that in a short time as its one of the first and most fundamental design decisions in the car.
If that is what's causing the differential then looking at the circuits coming up its going to be tough for red bull
A new engine with improved output on top of this and Merc / Hamilton will be in with a real shout despite the remaining GPS initially looking to favour red bull
Red bull seem to be making a lot of fuss about a flexible wing but surely the fia have scrutinised that now so if it is the suspension making such a difference it really does seem a very clever innovation
https://the-race.com/formula-1/gary-anderson-explains-mercedes-suspension-trick/
If true then its the suspension lowering that is effectively stalling the drag making the car quicker on the straight whilst allowing a generally higher downforce for the rest of the circuit
Provided this is mechanically achieved which I'm guessing the fia must have checked it seems perfectly legal
Why are red bull so pissed and why don't they copy it... well apparently they simply can't get the same result due to the high rear rake on the car and that is not really possible to change that in a short time as its one of the first and most fundamental design decisions in the car.
If that is what's causing the differential then looking at the circuits coming up its going to be tough for red bull
A new engine with improved output on top of this and Merc / Hamilton will be in with a real shout despite the remaining GPS initially looking to favour red bull
Red bull seem to be making a lot of fuss about a flexible wing but surely the fia have scrutinised that now so if it is the suspension making such a difference it really does seem a very clever innovation
The problem is if Max finishes ahead of Lewis today even if Lewis wins the remaining 3 races with fastest lap if Max finishes 2nd he would still win the championship. Lewis has to finish ahead of max today to stand a chance I think.
I dunno... put a new engine in bottas car as well and sure he takes a 5 place quali hit in the next gp but he potentially gains something like three tenths a lap? ... Max is gonna struggle to finish 2nd in all the GPS against that... as I sai in the previous post if it is the suspension lowering stalling the diffuser and red bulls high rake makes that impossible its gonna be tough given the circuits coming up for red bull...
Nice one. The ingenuity and ability to adapt in this sport always amazes me.
Hope this gives the Mercs the edge for the final few races; really want to see it go down to the wire.
We've known about this since Turkey though, so it's not something new to make a fuss of.
I don't know what else they're looking at, maybe they think the Mercedes rear wing is purposely weak and deforming somehow to flex open more under load?
Anyway, thanks to all the mathematicians in this thread we know there was practically zero advantage from it anyway.
The speed is down to Mercedes turning this engine up to 100% and being brand new - and having this low suspension trick to reduce lag.
Something Sky seem to keep ignoring is that a new engine will always do more work when going up a hill. Interlagos main straight is UPHILL hence why the speed advantage is so enhanced. On the back straight with the DRS there wasn't actually much of an advantage.
Casting a quick eye to 2022 where even newy thinks low rake will be the way to go
https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/9219...concept-in-2022-you-won-t-see-that-again.html
I wonder how translatable mercs low rake and trick suspension expertise will be to next years cars
https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/9219...concept-in-2022-you-won-t-see-that-again.html
I wonder how translatable mercs low rake and trick suspension expertise will be to next years cars
This is a sport where even hundredths of a second can make a difference, 0.2mm isn't even that ridiculous.0.2mm
The FIA are utterly pathetic.
The problem here is, that 0.2/85=0.0024 or 0.24%. (Not saying it matters at all, but the first guy already fecked up the percentages.)
Fair enough lads appreciate the replies. I understand it's crunch time but definitely not over yet. Can never count out someone as talented as Hamilton especially when his car is at the very least top 2 fastest. I just hope there are no more accidents. Let's see some good racing over the last few GPs
A few mentions of Mercedes turning the engine up to 100% on here. Which isnt possible under the rules. The ICE engine can only be turned down for practise. For qually and race there is only one map. It's the electric motor that has different maps to it that you can turn up or down. A new ICE will help lewis, as a new ICE engine would help anyone on the grid.
I found this article interesting… and some of the comments at the end (** I’m not saying everything said is facts but seems clear rather then some of the guesses made on social media).
https://the-race.com/formula-1/mercedes-feels-hamilton-wing-case-treated-unusually-harshly/
For anyone wanting Mercedes to give a clear response, they can’t … yet. ‘The FIA has retained the wing for the remainder of the race weekend so Mercedes has not been able to assess why it failed the test but believes something to be broken in its mechanism’. “Our number 1 [mechanic] was there as it was being tested and he has reported that he believes it to be broken,” explained Wolff.
‘The FIA statement confirming the penalty stated the stewards accepted the infringement was not intentional, saying “it was clear to the stewards that the additional deflection was due to additional play either in the DRS actuator or the pivots at the end, or some combination or other fault with the mechanism, or incorrect assembly of the parts…” and “the stewards fundamentally accept the competitor’s explanation that the cause of the failed test was something ‘gone wrong’ rather than a deliberate action.” ‘
I’ve read this elsewhere… it wasn’t 0.2mm across the wing, just at one end (so for the people doing mathS, you might need to reduce this significant advantage Hamilton got)… ‘ “In this case, the gauge would not pass through at the inner section of the wing, but did at the outer section of the wing. This test was repeated four times with two different gauges.” ‘
Red Bull (and others) will also have to be very careful. Tito Wolff ‘ “from now we will be asking questions of everything. If a gentleman’s agreement existed before it doesn’t now.” ‘
One of the comments at the end of the article (has a different view of mathS to others)… “if we say the 85mm DRS gap buys you 0.5s (which is about right for Interlagos) then if the whole gap was an extra 0.2mm big (which it wasn't, but let's assume), then a simple sum would say 0.2/85 x 0.5s = 0.001s. But if it's only at one end, it would be less than that”
https://the-race.com/formula-1/mercedes-feels-hamilton-wing-case-treated-unusually-harshly/
For anyone wanting Mercedes to give a clear response, they can’t … yet. ‘The FIA has retained the wing for the remainder of the race weekend so Mercedes has not been able to assess why it failed the test but believes something to be broken in its mechanism’. “Our number 1 [mechanic] was there as it was being tested and he has reported that he believes it to be broken,” explained Wolff.
‘The FIA statement confirming the penalty stated the stewards accepted the infringement was not intentional, saying “it was clear to the stewards that the additional deflection was due to additional play either in the DRS actuator or the pivots at the end, or some combination or other fault with the mechanism, or incorrect assembly of the parts…” and “the stewards fundamentally accept the competitor’s explanation that the cause of the failed test was something ‘gone wrong’ rather than a deliberate action.” ‘
I’ve read this elsewhere… it wasn’t 0.2mm across the wing, just at one end (so for the people doing mathS, you might need to reduce this significant advantage Hamilton got)… ‘ “In this case, the gauge would not pass through at the inner section of the wing, but did at the outer section of the wing. This test was repeated four times with two different gauges.” ‘
Red Bull (and others) will also have to be very careful. Tito Wolff ‘ “from now we will be asking questions of everything. If a gentleman’s agreement existed before it doesn’t now.” ‘
One of the comments at the end of the article (has a different view of mathS to others)… “if we say the 85mm DRS gap buys you 0.5s (which is about right for Interlagos) then if the whole gap was an extra 0.2mm big (which it wasn't, but let's assume), then a simple sum would say 0.2/85 x 0.5s = 0.001s. But if it's only at one end, it would be less than that”
Ferrari and others have been doing this for years. It's just more visible on the Mercs.
how naive of you.You don’t think they can regulate horse power with boost levels? they can also control the upper RPM limit too which will throttle peak power.
Yes you’re correct that they cannot change map settings like they used to in race, but there’s plenty of ways to get around it.
Ferrari went high(er) rake this year didn't they to counter the ground floor changes
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.mo...e-tells-us-about-its-2021-f1-car/4927288/amp/
And stalling the diffuser is probably only going to work with low rake (and the front end aero tweaks merc introduced recently)
I think I read something from merc saying if it's only at one side it will actually make the car slower
Think yesterday showed that Hamilton was ahead just like in quali and will be interesting to see if he can replicate the pace in the gp
Ha, fair enough, I didn't even think to check that part. Not that it translates across like that anyway
It could have just come loose going over a sausage curb.
Didn't Red Bulls get damaged in the last GP?
And they said it was damaged from driving (curb impacts?)
And they fixed it (tape)?
And stewards said fine (because they asked)?
Where do you guys get all your F1 news? I’ve only been following F1 since finishing Drive to Survive in April so not really sure how to stay updated. I watch every quali and every race, but there is always stuff that happens in between race weekends that I miss.
There’s a few decent YouTube channels that are good at breaking things down for idiots like me. Been watching years but without colourful graphics I may as well be listening to Mandarin.
WTF1 and The Race are two decent ones.
Yes. If the Stewards had tried to push a gauge through the taped up DRS last week undoubtedly it would have gone through because tape gives.
Still broke the rules, how much tolerance do you give ?0.2mm
The FIA are utterly pathetic.
You can't give any, that's the way it has you be, harsh for 0.2mm , yeah maybe.
He hit a few kerbs in qualifying, maybe that knocked it out of tolerance.
I think this is the point though right? Hamilton could have the fastest car by 10 seconds per lap, it still wouldn’t be in his hands after today depending on results.
I agree. It’s over hence no choice. But I wonder if there should be a margin of error. Eg checks pre quali = no margin of error. Post quali = x% margin to account for damage?
Difficult and would probably over complicate it so wouldn’t necessarily be in favour. Just an option though if it transpires the breach really was as a result of on track use rather than an error in engineering.
Looks like another red bull complaint to the fia about the flex in the merc rear wing is almost inevitable
https://www.planetf1.com/news/red-bull-not-finished-with-mercedes-wing-yet/
https://www.planetf1.com/news/red-bull-not-finished-with-mercedes-wing-yet/
Find this absolutely ridiculous tbh. The stewards are there for a reason and if they can penalise Mercedes’ for DRS being 85.2mm then I am sure that they won’t let them get away with some sort of rule break which is giving them a massive advantage apparently. This sort of constant badgering by Redbull just creates needless doubt & controversy
You don‘t have to break the rules to gain an advantage in this sport with the complexity in the regulations. Mercedes were the one complaining about Red Bull’s rear wing earlier this season yet it passed the checks. So the FIA changed the test to stop Red Bull. That’s what Red Bull are trying to work out now so they can do the exact same.