Good point. It's got to be the most apt tagline on the whole forum.
How good are we?
- Thread starter Plechazunga
- Start date
Maybe I am overestimating them, and maybe you're underestimating them. The way they outplayed us was shocking though. Comparing them to West Ham just because they've beaten us aswel though is wrong.
I'm just saying we need to adjust our style a bit to get to the next level. Can't bare to see us getting owned by another Spanish team again.
Isn't Cina an American wrestler? And Cheesy is a beauty aswel ey?
Tagline; not username.
Oh yeah just seen that. Don't know who did that and how but it's out of order in my opinion so as such this will be my last post on this forum ever.
Don't need to be made to feel bad for putting my opinions down just cus some don't agree. So I'm off.
Boss mark II
Fair enough. When your opinions are ridiculous and kneejerk though, I don't what you can really expect.
Another one bites the dust. I hope you two are proud of yourselves. Go stand in the corner and think about what you've done.
You're taking it too seriously. Just some mod with a wacky sense of humour. Stay on the Cafe. You're as entitled to your opinion as anybody else.
Going back to the original question, we're shown ourselved be be a damned sight better team than many even hoped for this season. We are still a team in transition so us being in a position where we can wrap up the title is beyond anything I expected. The doubters will say that the standard in the Prem has dipped and that City have thrown the title away, but I don't buy that for a minute.
Persuading Scholes to come out of retirement was a masterstroke by the Wizard. Without him, I suspect we'd be languishing behind City. We are a long way off Europe's top sides and I don't accept Fergie's assessment that we're only a couple of players shy of matching Barca, unless the two players are Messi and Iniesta. In my opinion, we lag behind the likes of Barca, Real, and Bayern (maybe even Milan) by, to use a racing term, several lengths. If Fergie wants to retire with three European Cups to his credit new blood will need to be infused.
Anderson won't, in my opinion, be any different next season so don't pin your hopes on him coming good. We'll need to bring in a top-notch striker too and our midfield will need to produce a lot more goals. Carrick's form has been very impressive but he scores very few goals. Owen may be retained in some capacity and Berbatov will likely leave so we're quite light. I don't think Welbeck is ready yet to step up to the standards required in Europe though he'll gain valuable experience in the Euros.
As others have said, experience has carried us to this point in the season and may well win us number 20. To get number 21 and number 4, investment is needed.
Persuading Scholes to come out of retirement was a masterstroke by the Wizard. Without him, I suspect we'd be languishing behind City. We are a long way off Europe's top sides and I don't accept Fergie's assessment that we're only a couple of players shy of matching Barca, unless the two players are Messi and Iniesta. In my opinion, we lag behind the likes of Barca, Real, and Bayern (maybe even Milan) by, to use a racing term, several lengths. If Fergie wants to retire with three European Cups to his credit new blood will need to be infused.
Anderson won't, in my opinion, be any different next season so don't pin your hopes on him coming good. We'll need to bring in a top-notch striker too and our midfield will need to produce a lot more goals. Carrick's form has been very impressive but he scores very few goals. Owen may be retained in some capacity and Berbatov will likely leave so we're quite light. I don't think Welbeck is ready yet to step up to the standards required in Europe though he'll gain valuable experience in the Euros.
As others have said, experience has carried us to this point in the season and may well win us number 20. To get number 21 and number 4, investment is needed.
These 23 players make me the most excited I have been to be a United fan in a decade. There is so much youth coming through in practically every position and so many players want to play attractive attacking football.
Unless Scholes retires, the team and squad should be stronger next season. The other prem teams have much greater problems, including City. There's every reason to hope to retain the league next year. The last 2 years have shown SAF's complete mastery of how to win the title and it's not clear why the next one would be any different. A long term injury to Rooney is the only thing that would worry me.
I hope that's not how SAF is thinking.
I hope our performance in the cups this year will encourage him to strengthen in the obvious places we have all discussed many times before. We do have quality young players that will improve but we certainly shouldn't be resting on our laurels. City have experience of being in a title race this year, that will be valuable next year. I am not expecting the same capitulation next season, we can't allow ourselves to fall so far behind again.
I hope our performance in the cups this year will encourage him to strengthen in the obvious places we have all discussed many times before. We do have quality young players that will improve but we certainly shouldn't be resting on our laurels. City have experience of being in a title race this year, that will be valuable next year. I am not expecting the same capitulation next season, we can't allow ourselves to fall so far behind again.
This is true. Aside from Newcastle and Arsenal if they can keep RVP, all the top teams need to have a hard look on what they need to do to challenge for the League. They all need an injection of world class youth, and to find a way to fuse the old guard with the new teams, or jettison them.
The liklihood is that this will be United's 5th League crown in 6 years. Who is going to take it from the next year?
He won't rest on his laurels. He never does. And he won't allow the players too either.
About city, it's unlikely they will get the same dream start again, so it will probably be tougher for them next time around.
Bumping this thread in lieu of being almost half way through this season. So, how good are we really? And please, obviously qualified for the knock-outs, top of the table is an obvious and lazy answer. I mean how good is our squad and manager?
Keeper - De Gea still looks like a good choice, but can't stay in the team due to Fergie.
Central defense - Worst United defense in living memory. By the numbers and by the performances. Chock it up to injuries, but age should also be considered. Smalling/Vidic might be out best combination, but every single one of our CBs has looked dodgy this season
Full backs - Rafael is probably the one shining light so far this year. Evra has been marginally better than last year, but a shadow of his former self
Central midfield - Even worse than I feared. Carrick has been poor, Scholes worse, Cleverley poor and Anderson good for 2 matches. Oh and Fletcher has come back and looks half of what he once was. Oh and Giggs.
Wide midfield - Nani is in a funk and injured. Valencia is okay, but even when fit hasn't been a world beater. Young...yeah.
Attack - Kagawa looked good briefly, but has barely featured. Rooney has no position anymore. RVP and Hernandez look great and Welbz has regressed.
The manager - Hard to fathom any of his choices anymore, but the character he infuses in the team is there to see. Pity the tactics, nous and legendary 'thinking Fergie' appear to have gone to pasture.
It's just such a weird feeling. I guess only a spoiled rotten United fan like myself would feel it, but this is the least positive I've been about half a season in years. Aside from very, very short periods we've not played well at all. Watching us has become a bit dire.
And yet we're still successful.
Keeper - De Gea still looks like a good choice, but can't stay in the team due to Fergie.
Central defense - Worst United defense in living memory. By the numbers and by the performances. Chock it up to injuries, but age should also be considered. Smalling/Vidic might be out best combination, but every single one of our CBs has looked dodgy this season
Full backs - Rafael is probably the one shining light so far this year. Evra has been marginally better than last year, but a shadow of his former self
Central midfield - Even worse than I feared. Carrick has been poor, Scholes worse, Cleverley poor and Anderson good for 2 matches. Oh and Fletcher has come back and looks half of what he once was. Oh and Giggs.
Wide midfield - Nani is in a funk and injured. Valencia is okay, but even when fit hasn't been a world beater. Young...yeah.
Attack - Kagawa looked good briefly, but has barely featured. Rooney has no position anymore. RVP and Hernandez look great and Welbz has regressed.
The manager - Hard to fathom any of his choices anymore, but the character he infuses in the team is there to see. Pity the tactics, nous and legendary 'thinking Fergie' appear to have gone to pasture.
It's just such a weird feeling. I guess only a spoiled rotten United fan like myself would feel it, but this is the least positive I've been about half a season in years. Aside from very, very short periods we've not played well at all. Watching us has become a bit dire.
And yet we're still successful.
Only English team that was able to win their group in the CL. We are awesome.
We're going to win the treble gentlemen. Mark my words, we are awesome.
By the fan reaction we've gone form 'We think we can beat anyone' to 'feck me, please not statistically better sides on paper than us. They'll beat us for sure'.
I think we're a lot better than our own cynical fans give us credit for. Part of the edge was knowing we'd beat the feck out of anyone that came near us in any competition and for me a bit of that has gone. Players look uncomfortable, lack mongrel and lack passion even at times.
That's worrying. One game at a time to build on can be great when you know how good you are yourself. But sometimes 'feck you - we'll take you to town no matter what' can be a better response.
It has worked for United in the past.. Not sure how well it goes these days for this particular squad. Working toward the end of the season it will be interesting. We definitely have the 'we will crumble' in us. But feck if we don't stand up I will be surprised. We are United after all, not much has changed in the mentality.
edit: I am also a cynical fan.
I think we're a lot better than our own cynical fans give us credit for. Part of the edge was knowing we'd beat the feck out of anyone that came near us in any competition and for me a bit of that has gone. Players look uncomfortable, lack mongrel and lack passion even at times.
That's worrying. One game at a time to build on can be great when you know how good you are yourself. But sometimes 'feck you - we'll take you to town no matter what' can be a better response.
It has worked for United in the past.. Not sure how well it goes these days for this particular squad. Working toward the end of the season it will be interesting. We definitely have the 'we will crumble' in us. But feck if we don't stand up I will be surprised. We are United after all, not much has changed in the mentality.
edit: I am also a cynical fan.
Domestically, we are very good and are top of the league because we deserve to be and not because of anything sinister or a weaker league. In the Premier League, I fancy us to beat anybody and I do think we are the best team in the Premier League.
However, I'm not as confident in the Champions League. The Champions League has reminded me of recent International tournaments, where no matter the talent on the team, a certain style of football is what seperates the top teams and the others. Watching the Premier League teams in the Champions League, has been like watching England, where you know how good these teams are domestically, but something isn't working for them in Europe. If we were to face Madrid, Barcelona, Dortmund or Bayern, I don't know how confident I would be that we could go through.
However, I'm not as confident in the Champions League. The Champions League has reminded me of recent International tournaments, where no matter the talent on the team, a certain style of football is what seperates the top teams and the others. Watching the Premier League teams in the Champions League, has been like watching England, where you know how good these teams are domestically, but something isn't working for them in Europe. If we were to face Madrid, Barcelona, Dortmund or Bayern, I don't know how confident I would be that we could go through.
Good bump!
Keeper: I still like our options at keeper. De Gea is clearly our #1, but Fergie is going what he thinks is best to manage minutes for both De Gea (sensational, but still very young) and Lindegaard (better than average, but in the prime of his playing career) so as to defang the moronic British media who's out to pounce on De Gea whenever he scratches his scrotum the wrong way.
Fullbacks: Actually pretty good. Buttner shows some real promise as well.
Central Defenders: By far the weakest link in squad. Evans has been horrid this season but we all know of his potential. Bring Vidic back and after about 4-5 games he'll back to his old self and the clean sheets will follow. Smalling, still only 23, looks the real deal. We've good a good squad of CBs but we need to get Vidic back on as quickly as possible.
Wingers: Disappointing so far this season. Not sure what future holds for Nani.
Central Mids: Could be stronger and is clearly the area where a new body is needed first. Ando has got the tools, but is he physically strong enough to handle the rigors of this level of professional football? I hope so.
Strikers: Clearly the strength of the squad lies here. You just can't argue with RvP and Rooney.
Manager: Fergie, the second greatest manager of any team in any sport (Wooden is still #1) still digs out wins with patched up squads, with none of us fully understanding how he manages it.
Progress Report As of Early December 2012: B+
Injuries still feck us and I'd like to see an inquiry made as to why we've had trouble getting players like Vidic (and before him, Hargreaves) treated properly and back on the pitch in a reasonably timely manner. The Glazer debt still precludes our ability to bring in top players like Hazard, an albatross we just have to live with. Still, we claw out the wins and are at the top of the table and at the top of our group in CL play. Not a bad place to be in, all things considered, although our shambolic defending is an ongoing concern and needs to be dealt with soon.
Barca
Madrid
Bayern
Dortmund
Us/City
Would be my guess - with a top class midfield and new strong CB we'd challenge Madrid/Barca though
Madrid
Bayern
Dortmund
Us/City
Would be my guess - with a top class midfield and new strong CB we'd challenge Madrid/Barca though
According to my calculations we're roughly 4 players away from being as good as Barca/Madrid.
More than anything else, the way SAF has made baffling tactical decisions on a regular basis is worrying me.
I think we have a fantastic team and the work ethic is the best in the world. Its known fact that we never know when we are beaten. Surely that must count for something, i would agree that as fans we are spoilt and expect the team to be striding out and beating teams by a huge margin, then when it doesnt happen we write all the doom and gloom stuff, its okay to draw or lose a game - it certainly isnt the end of the world.
I disagree. We haven't been very good at all and should count ourselves lucky to be top, we've won so many games where we went behind and didn't look good. We're not particularly good too watch either, even if most of our games are high-scoring. There's room for improvement but so far we've had very few performances that we could be content with.
Scoring so many goals on multiple occasions is not lucky at all. We have the ability. Just lacking it.
It really is not.If you want real and exemplary work ethic, watch Barca or Dortmund.
Our ability to win a game, no matter how badly we play, is the best in the world.
To quickly compare our current team with the team from last season:
Goalkeepers: draw
Neither worse nor better than last season. If anything, DDG is slightly better than before.
Central defenders: 1 point to last season's team
We seem to have shaken off the worst injuries(or have we
), so in this sense we are better off than last season. Having said that, we concede a lot more goals and our CB has suddenly become one of our "weak links". It's fair to say that we are worse off in terms of performance, but I'm confident that we're not gonna remain this shaky for the rest of the season. Our material is too good for that.
Fullbacks: 1 point to the current team
Evra was painfully average last season, but has had a good start so far. Rafael has been one of our best players so far, so it's also safe to say that our RB is strengthened. In addition to this, we've signed Büttner who's also looked pretty decent.
Central midfield: draw
We're pretty much in the exact same situation as last season. Cleverley and Anderson show glimpses of brilliance, Carrick is decent, and Giggs is utter shite. The only difference is that Park has been "replaced" by a Fletcher who is out of form. You could also say that Scholes did a good job last season, but has been pretty bad so far. Still, I think it's harsh to give the team of last sesaon a point for this, since the only difference is that Scholes no longer produces magic(occasionally). I called the goalkeepers situation a draw despite DDG being slightly better than last season, so I'm also gonna call this a draw.
Wingers: 1 point to last season's team
This is the only position where we are clearly weaker than last season. Young was pretty good in the beginning of 2011, but has been very average so far. Valencia was injured last season, but when he played he was our best player. This season he's been out of form. As for Nani.. Well, he's no longer playing is he?
Forwards: 1 point to the current team
Halle-fecking-luja we've strengthened this position immensely! We've signed the best lone striker in the world(if we exclude Messi) and the best AM from the Bundesliga! Not only that, but Hernandez seems to be better than ever and is a matchwinner in Solskjær fashion!
General team flow: 1 point to the current team
In terms of points gathered we're not that different from last season, but there are many improvements none the less. First of all, we score a shitload of goals. Second, we have started to come back and win games. It shows that our mentality is stronger. Third, we've won games we usually lose(we've also lost a few, but I feel that the victories outshine the losses). Fourth, we've finished first in our CL group. Fifth, we've had the best transfer summer in ages.
The only general point you can give to the team of last season, is that it conceded fewer goals. You might argue that we've looked worse this season, but at the end of the day it's these statistics that count: points, goals scored, goals conceded.
Summary:
Team of last season: 2 points.
Team of this season: 3 points.
Overall I'd therefore say we're better off this year. Some of our victories are "ugly", but that's just football. It's the points matter, not the amount of Xavi-esque passes. If our central defence get their shit together and Kagawa fully returns, then we're looking at a top team. We would need a couple of signings to be considered the very best though.
Goalkeepers: draw
Neither worse nor better than last season. If anything, DDG is slightly better than before.
Central defenders: 1 point to last season's team
We seem to have shaken off the worst injuries(or have we
), so in this sense we are better off than last season. Having said that, we concede a lot more goals and our CB has suddenly become one of our "weak links". It's fair to say that we are worse off in terms of performance, but I'm confident that we're not gonna remain this shaky for the rest of the season. Our material is too good for that.Fullbacks: 1 point to the current team
Evra was painfully average last season, but has had a good start so far. Rafael has been one of our best players so far, so it's also safe to say that our RB is strengthened. In addition to this, we've signed Büttner who's also looked pretty decent.
Central midfield: draw
We're pretty much in the exact same situation as last season. Cleverley and Anderson show glimpses of brilliance, Carrick is decent, and Giggs is utter shite. The only difference is that Park has been "replaced" by a Fletcher who is out of form. You could also say that Scholes did a good job last season, but has been pretty bad so far. Still, I think it's harsh to give the team of last sesaon a point for this, since the only difference is that Scholes no longer produces magic(occasionally). I called the goalkeepers situation a draw despite DDG being slightly better than last season, so I'm also gonna call this a draw.
Wingers: 1 point to last season's team
This is the only position where we are clearly weaker than last season. Young was pretty good in the beginning of 2011, but has been very average so far. Valencia was injured last season, but when he played he was our best player. This season he's been out of form. As for Nani.. Well, he's no longer playing is he?
Forwards: 1 point to the current team
Halle-fecking-luja we've strengthened this position immensely! We've signed the best lone striker in the world(if we exclude Messi) and the best AM from the Bundesliga! Not only that, but Hernandez seems to be better than ever and is a matchwinner in Solskjær fashion!
General team flow: 1 point to the current team
In terms of points gathered we're not that different from last season, but there are many improvements none the less. First of all, we score a shitload of goals. Second, we have started to come back and win games. It shows that our mentality is stronger. Third, we've won games we usually lose(we've also lost a few, but I feel that the victories outshine the losses). Fourth, we've finished first in our CL group. Fifth, we've had the best transfer summer in ages.
The only general point you can give to the team of last season, is that it conceded fewer goals. You might argue that we've looked worse this season, but at the end of the day it's these statistics that count: points, goals scored, goals conceded.
Summary:
Team of last season: 2 points.
Team of this season: 3 points.
Overall I'd therefore say we're better off this year. Some of our victories are "ugly", but that's just football. It's the points matter, not the amount of Xavi-esque passes. If our central defence get their shit together and Kagawa fully returns, then we're looking at a top team. We would need a couple of signings to be considered the very best though.
The forwards of this season's team should get a point more, while the midfield of this season's team should be a point less. Meaningless, yes, but that's how I see it.
We have amazing attacking prowess, a shitty midfield, an injury prone defense and the best spirit in the world. We are an enigma. 
I can never write this team off despite a number of disjointed and terrible our performances this season. I live in hope that we are going to pull it together and get on a run in this busy festive period. I wish we buy a midfielder or two in January.
I can never write this team off despite a number of disjointed and terrible our performances this season. I live in hope that we are going to pull it together and get on a run in this busy festive period. I wish we buy a midfielder or two in January.
I know, what a dumb thing to say (original quote). You can add Juventus into that as well, and I would say Real are hardly slackers.
What I would say is that Fergie is making some dumbass team selections and I would like to know (though never will) what exactly the contribution of Phelan is. He's the coach, and the defensive malaise has not been corrected.
Good enough to win the league.
Not good enough for Europe.
Not good enough for Europe.
We're the best of a bad bunch in the league, and lacking far too much for Europe.
How good are we? Not very good, for a Utd side anyway, apart from our attack.
How good are we? Not very good, for a Utd side anyway, apart from our attack.
Some great individuals, not a great team. Far from one.
sums it up nicely, and with the players we have we should be playing better football. hope we start clicking soon
Things havent evolved all that much from last season in terms of how good we are, despite a few signings. A bit stronger up front, but still soft as marshmallow in the centre.