Manchester City 17/18 discussion | "If you're here for the Champions clap your hands" (#6505)

[JohnnyKills]

I am of the opinion that Jose is definitely negative and not getting the best out of our attacking players. However the gap between our spending and City's is nearer 200 million pounds if I am not mistaken. That's a pretty huge gap tbh. Also, when a manager can buy a player and then dump him next season without a worry in the world, letting him play as a sub all the time, then the playing field is just not the same.

Yeah agree with this. United have a lot of money, in fact they're probably the most financially powerful non-sugardaddy club in the world, but they still have to sell players to keep the books relatively balanced.

City don't have to do that. They can keep a Bernardo Silva on the bench all year and not worry about the fortune being squandered in wages.

That's the real advantage they and the other oil clubs have IMO. Not so much a freedom to buy whoever they want, but a freedom not to sell.

 

[Thunderhead]

Yeah agree with this. United have a lot of money, in fact they're probably the most financially powerful non-sugardaddy club in the world, but they still have to sell players to keep the books relatively balanced.

City don't have to do that. They can keep a Bernardo Silva on the bench all year and not worry about the fortune being squandered in wages.

That's the real advantage they and the other oil clubs have IMO. Not so much a freedom to buy whoever they want, but a freedom not to sell.

City have a first team squad of 24 players, of those 24 how many are they squandering wages on who are just sitting on the bench.

If a player was just sitting on the bench they'd probably want to leave, and City do have a budget, the one saving grace we have is not sending millions to the Cayman islands for the shareholders each season.

 

[JohnnyKills]

City have a first team squad of 24 players, of those 24 how many are they squandering wages on who are just sitting on the bench.

If a player was just sitting on the bench they'd probably want to leave, and City do have a budget, the one saving grace we have is not sending millions to the Cayman islands for the shareholders each season.

Bernardo Silva was bought for big money last season and has hardly played. You can add Bravo and Yaya Toure to the benchwarmers' list as well. Then there's Mangala who was bought for £40m and has spent most of the last four years on loan.

Other clubs can't afford to match that. United made loads of mistakes under LVG but those players have all been shipped out now, rather than being left on the bench. I read that we were subsidising Rooney's wages at Everton but apparently that's not the case.

Also, City spent £120 million on full-backs alone last season. They just paid £60m for Laporte. So if they have a budget, what is it? Do you know? Does anyone?

None of this is to disparage the football they're playing btw, but to say that the only saving grace is not having shareholders just isn't true.

 

[Karel Podolsky]

I am sure an hour ago I read someone posted about B. Silva has played 40+ games this season.

 

[JohnnyKills]

I am sure an hour ago I read someone posted about B. Silva has played 40+ games this season.

How many starts though?

 

[Thunderhead]

>>How many starts though?<<

22

 

[Vialli_92]

City seem to have a good balance between bench players and starting 11

Everyone seems to get game time to one extent or another

They also have a very young squad and it looks complete so they may not need to invest as heavily in the coming years

The recruitment really has been very efficient and the players they needed seemed to all come in and fit in perfectly

 

[JohnnyKills]

>>How many starts though?<<

22

Only 11 in the league though, out of 29. Same number as Mkhi played for United.

If he'd been at United the press would be labelling him a misfit already.

 

[el magico]

How many starts though?

He's started 22 games this season (11 in the PL) and come on as sub 21 times (16 times in the PL).

In comparison Lindelof (broadly equivalent in transfer fee) has started 19 games and come on as sub on five occasions.

I would say that both clubs are introducing these new signings gently in order that they acclimatise and prosper. Nothing wrong with that.

Bravo is a sub goalkeeper and Yaya is winding down. Utd have a reserve goalkeeper and I have not see much of Zlatan recently.

You're correct though that Mangala was an expensive mistake.

 

[Ainu]

Only 11 in the league though, out of 29. Same number as Mkhi played for United.

If he'd been at United the press would be labelling him a misfit already.

Not after those goals he scored against Arsenal and Chelsea they wouldn't.

 

[Thunderhead]

Bernardo Silva was bought for big money last season and has hardly played. You can add Bravo and Yaya Toure to the benchwarmers' list as well. Then there's Mangala who was bought for £40m and has spent most of the last four years on loan.

Other clubs can't afford to match that. United made loads of mistakes under LVG but those players have all been shipped out now, rather than being left on the bench. I read that we were subsidising Rooney's wages at Everton but apparently that's not the case.

Also, City spent £120 million on full-backs alone last season. They just paid £60m for Laporte. So if they have a budget, what is it? Do you know? Does anyone?

None of this is to disparage the football they're playing btw, but to say that the only saving grace is not having shareholders just isn't true.

Bravo is the reserve keeper now, a £17m mistake, I'd have kept Willy over him but he's an able deputy, Yaya has given years of service but his legs have now gone. Mangala was a mistake theres deffo a decent defender in there but he drops one clanger too many and we've tried to offload him numerous times but anyway he's played 9 times this season, last season was on loan but the previous 2 seasons before that he started 23 and 25 premier league games, so hardly on loan for the last 4 seasons.

We released all our fullbacks last summer, hadn't purchased one since 2011 so obviously we're going to splash cash on fullbacks, also released 19 players last season, 10 who were first team players. If we didn't have a budget would we not just have got Evans and Sanchez on transfer deadline day instead of quibbling over £5m here and there.

 

[JohnnyKills]

He's started 22 games this season (11 in the PL) and come on as sub 21 times (16 times in the PL).

In comparison Lindelof (broadly equivalent in transfer fee) has started 19 games and come on as sub on five occasions.

I would say that both clubs are introducing these new sayings gently in order that they acclimatise and prosper. Nothing wrong with that.

Bravo is a sub goalkeeper and Yaya is winding down. Utd have a reserve goalkeeper and I have not see much of Zlatan recently.

You're correct though that Mangala was an expensive mistake.

Not sure that's fair mate. Silva-Lindelof is a decent example, but according to transfermarkt Silva cost 50m and Lindelof 35m - fairly big difference.

Bravo and Yaya are both high-profile players who cost big money and are on big wages. By comparison, United's reserve goalkeeper was a free transfer and Ibra has been injured all year.

 

[Thunderhead]

He's started 22 games this season (11 in the PL) and come on as sub 21 times (16 times in the PL).

.

so he's featured in 93% of prem games this season? Even I didn't realise it was that much, even though some of those would only be 2 min cameo's

Not sure that's fair mate. Silva-Lindelof is a recent example, but according to transfermarkt Silva cost 50m and Lindelof 35m - fairly big difference.

Bravo and Yaya are both high-profile players who cost big money and are on big wages. By comparison, United's reserve goalkeeper was a free transfer and Ibra has been injured all year.

Silva was £43m it was laughed about on here as people didn't believe it was so cheap.


Yaya took a big wage cut last season and I don't think Bravo will be on huge money in the grand scheme of things.

so anyway, that's 3 bench warmers, if players aren't happy they can move, I can't recall us ever refusing to sell a player in the last 10 years, we even agreed a fee for Delph but he decided to stay and fight for a place and fair play that he did as with Mendy injured he's been invaluable.

 

[el magico]

Not sure that's fair mate. Silva-Lindelof is a recent example, but according to transfermarkt Silva cost 50m and Lindelof 35m - fairly big difference.

Bravo and Yaya are both high-profile players who cost big money and are on big wages. By comparison, United's reserve goalkeeper was a free transfer and Ibra has been injured all year.

I thought Silva was more like low £40m but so be it, in the scheme of things they were both substantial transfer fees. You cannot have an arbitrary line and say all transfers above this line have to play but those beneath the line are allowed to be on the bench. I think the way City have managed Silva this season has been pretty good and we're starting to see the benefits now. I gather that Lindelof is also starting to prosper.

I guess the point I am making is that I see very little difference between City and United in the way they manage the squad. Both are extremely wealthy and able to afford and pay the best players. City had to offload loads of players last summer to finance the recent spending, there was a time in the past when budgets seemed to matter less but those times have long gone.

 

[JohnnyKills]

I thought Silva was more like low £40m but so be it, in the scheme of things they were both substantial transfer fees. You cannot have an arbitrary line and say all transfers above this line have to play but those beneath the line are allowed to be on the bench. I think the way City have managed Silva this season has been pretty good and we're starting to see the benefits now. I gather that Lindelof is also starting to prosper.

I guess the point I am making is that I see very little difference between City and United in the way they manage the squad. Both are extremely wealthy and able to afford and pay the best players. City had to offload loads of players last summer to finance the recent spending, there was a time in the past when budgets seemed to matter less but those times have long gone.

50m seems a pretty good dividing line mate.

But yeah maybe it's an 'agree to disagree' situation.

 

[padr81]

Silva was £43m including addons.

 

[el magico]

50m seems a pretty good dividing line mate.

But yeah maybe it's an 'agree to disagree' situation.

Shall we call it the 'Angel di Maria Line'?

 

[JohnnyKills]

Shall we call it the 'Angel di Maria Line'?

By all means mate, because we got rid of ADM less than a year after he arrived, so it kind of proves my point really.

 

[NK86]

To be fair, you've got Alexis Sanchez in return for Mkhitaryan, so that was totally understandable.

But we couldn't just bench him completely and buy a new toy. We still had to balance our books.

 

[jontheblue]

Except that they don't deserve anything, really. Only fifteen years ago City were playing the likes of Macclesfield in division two. I feel kind of meh when they win the title because their success is completely hollow. At least Chelsea for instance were somewhat competitive at the top level, nobody knew who the hell City were before their takeover.

I don't get why United fans can't just come out and just say it upsets them to see club who were the butt of all their jokes over the last however many years get any kind of success, instead of clutching at these kinds of straws. Others have been talking on here the last few days about the disgraceful regime that our owners preside over - well if you're genuinely that worried about human rights in the UAE, you should be delighted, because there's a significantly higher chance of regime change for the better as a result of the spotlight on AbuDhabi as City's owners than there would have been if they hadn't bought us. But many who bring the owners up don't really care that much. They just want anything they can beat city fans with, in the same way we did in reverse. Like I say, I get it - I grew up in a family where my only sibling, my younger brother, is a lifelong red and I am a lifelong blue - He understandably took the p*** at every opportunity. Now the unthinkable has happened and we don't just have money, but we have a plan. Not just any old plan, but a plan that is working. Whilst United right now are still struggling to deal with a post-SAF era, which is very understandable and was predicted by many reds. But this idea of 'deserve'......it's just baloney. Especially as those many fans who have supported their club in all the lower divisions through all the years of pain surely 'deserve' success more than a fan of say United or Arsenal ?

 

[NK86]

City have a first team squad of 24 players, of those 24 how many are they squandering wages on who are just sitting on the bench.

If a player was just sitting on the bench they'd probably want to leave, and City do have a budget, the one saving grace we have is not sending millions to the Cayman islands for the shareholders each season.

Yeah you have owners who violate every possible human rights which is way better than sending money to shareholders. I can see where you are coming from and where your priorities lie.

 

[Perseus]

This asterisks stuff is just bs. The league has never been fair. How do you think it feels to support a team like Burnley or Brighton who have no chance of ever competing financially and win the league? We slid all fans shouldn’t talk given United previously spent more than anyone before the sugar daddies arrived.

TV and Leicester changed the climate.

 

[ghagua]

I don't get why United fans can't just come out and just say it upsets them to see club who were the butt of all their jokes over the last however many years get any kind of success, instead of clutching at these kinds of straws. Others have been talking on here the last few days about the disgraceful regime that our owners preside over - well if you're genuinely that worried about human rights in the UAE, you should be delighted, because there's a significantly higher chance of regime change for the better as a result of the spotlight on AbuDhabi as City's owners than there would have been if they hadn't bought us. But many who bring the owners up don't really care that much. They just want anything they can beat city fans with, in the same way we did in reverse. Like I say, I get it - I grew up in a family where my only sibling, my younger brother, is a lifelong red and I am a lifelong blue - He understandably took the p*** at every opportunity. Now the unthinkable has happened and we don't just have money, but we have a plan. Not just any old plan, but a plan that is working. Whilst United right now are still struggling to deal with a post-SAF era, which is very understandable and was predicted by many reds. But this idea of 'deserve'......it's just baloney. Especially as those many fans who have supported their club in all the lower divisions through all the years of pain surely 'deserve' success more than a fan of say United or Arsenal ?

It upsets me to see City play the way they do, and doing so well, all this while we have to watch the shite that is being played by our team. To make it worse, we have to deal with this for the next few years.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

It upsets me to see City play the way they do, and doing so well, all this while we have to watch the shite that is being played by our team. To make it worse, we have to deal with this for the next few years.

Yes our football is not great, but there is nothing to stop any of the players trying something different, a little bit of magic. That not happening is to me down to the mentality of the players. Jose style of play relies on someone doing just that and the players don't do it often enough. They have to take a risk now and again. City are a well oiled machine, if we could cut out the silly defensive mistakes now and again and as I said take more risks then we could be a great team as well. This has been a problem over the last few years, even before Jose was here. City have bought young and with the future in mind, we need to be thinking that way at fullback especially and with more pace. Somebody who has defenders on the backfoot by running at them. A decent corner taker would be a start as well.

It is like LvG drilled them about keeping the ball, but not actually what to do with it in the end.

 

[ghagua]

Yes our football is not great, but there is nothing to stop any of the players trying something different, a little bit of magic. That not happening is to me down to the mentality of the players. Jose style of play relies on someone doing just that and the players don't do it often enough. They have to take a risk now and again. City are a well oiled machine, if we could cut out the silly defensive mistakes now and again and as I said take more risks then we could be a great team as well. This has been a problem over the last few years, even before Jose was here. City have bought young and with the future in mind, we need to be thinking that way at fullback especially and with more pace. Somebody who has defenders on the backfoot by running at them. A decent corner taker would be a start as well.

It is like LvG drilled them about keeping the ball, but not actually what to do with it in the end.

I know each manager has his own way, but why do we have to rely on individual brilliance to win a match with the players we have? Why not install a system where we can take advantage of the top players we have. A lot of players are under performing compared to reputation. We need to move on from constantly blaming LvG and hold the man in charge responsible. Our current football is just about soul destroying as LvG's with much better quality players than LvG ever had.

 

[KingMinger22]

There is no replacing a club like United, they are too big. Liverpool and Arsenal too. Just like no club can fall away like Villa etc.. anymore, football is too lopsided. Its sad to think but Europes best now will probably be Europes best and biggest for a very long future. Aside from teams getting the luck we at City have had with the Sheikh then nothing changes. The big will stay big, the little will fall further behind.

There will be no more fallen giants and the very odd season we might have a Leicester but they'll never join the truly elite.

I hope you're right mate!

Not sure though. No-one's too big to fail, look at Milan ffs.

You have to win the imagination of kids and that is how you build your fan base.

We haven’t been winning many imaginations for the last 6-7 years now.

 

[KingMinger22]

Yes our football is not great, but there is nothing to stop any of the players trying something different, a little bit of magic. That not happening is to me down to the mentality of the players. Jose style of play relies on someone doing just that and the players don't do it often enough. They have to take a risk now and again. City are a well oiled machine, if we could cut out the silly defensive mistakes now and again and as I said take more risks then we could be a great team as well. This has been a problem over the last few years, even before Jose was here. City have bought young and with the future in mind, we need to be thinking that way at fullback especially and with more pace. Somebody who has defenders on the backfoot by running at them. A decent corner taker would be a start as well.

It is like LvG drilled them about keeping the ball, but not actually what to do with it in the end.

I know each manager has his own way, but why do we have to rely on individual brilliance to win a match with the players we have? Why not install a system where we can take advantage of the top players we have. A lot of players are under performing compared to reputation. We need to move on from constantly blaming LvG and hold the man in charge responsible. Our current football is just about soul destroying as LvG's with much better quality players than LvG ever had.

The problem with this United team keying on individual brilliance is that we only have probably one player (Sanchez) who is individually brilliant.

City have several.

Mourinho teams usually have a few.

 

[stepic]

TV and Leicester changed the climate.

Leicester was an anomaly. It won’t happen again for a long time.

Despite the TV money the majority of teams have no chance of ever winning the title. This has always been the case since the beginning of the premier league. History has shown that.

 

[giorno]

Yeah agree with this. United have a lot of money, in fact they're probably the most financially powerful non-sugardaddy club in the world, but they still have to sell players to keep the books relatively balanced.

City don't have to do that. They can keep a Bernardo Silva on the bench all year and not worry about the fortune being squandered in wages.

That's the real advantage they and the other oil clubs have IMO. Not so much a freedom to buy whoever they want, but a freedom not to sell.

United have a higher wage bill than city

 

[sp_107]

Their timing was right ...If they waited another year all 50 mil players they got like KDB, Sterling, Silva, Sane would have gone further higher!! They realised it and bought full defence too this year !!As some one said it looks they spent much now but don't have to do that in coming years so that will balance it out !!!

That ex- Barca board guys at Citi got a good vision and quitely doing well at all levels from youth teams facilities to buying first team players !!!

At very crucial period, we spent lot but not on right players I think in last 4 years ! But I have a feeling we are just short of 3/4 players to match them so we should be very wise in our next Transfer Market as we may not have direct completion from them because they almost done their business

 

[JohnnyKills]

United have a higher wage bill than city

http://www.totalsportek.com/money/english-premier-league-wage-bills-club-by-club/

City's wage bill was higher than United's last year and the gap will have widened this season, given they've signed twice as many players as us in the last two windows and we've offset the Sanchez signing by offloading Rooney, Schweinsteiger, Depay and Schneiderlin (while giving Ibra a reduced wage).

If we have high earners sitting on our bench, recent form shows they'll be gone in the summer, as per my original point.

 

[Schneckerl]

There is no point in competing with City if they have a 2% higher wage bill.
It fully explains why they have 25% more points.

 

[Adisa]

Their timing was right ...If they waited another year all 50 mil players they got like KDB, Sterling, Silva, Sane would have gone further higher!! They realised it and bought full defence too this year !!As some one said it looks they spent much now but don't have to do that in coming years so that will balance it out !!!

That ex- Barca board guys at Citi got a good vision and quitely doing well at all levels from youth teams facilities to buying first team players !!!

At very crucial period, we spent lot but not on right players I think in last 4 years ! But I have a feeling we are just short of 3/4 players to match them so we should be very wise in our next Transfer Market as we may not have direct completion from them because they almost done their business

Was of the same opinion till a month or two ago.
Until we get a system that gets the best out of the players we have, it doesn't matter how much we spend.
I honestly think the gap in points exaggerates the gap in quality on paper and even in reality.
We are 16 points behind, second on the table but yet, we haven't had a stand out player or a player that has played well for long periods.
While the teams below us, the teams others feel are closer to City have had a number of stand out players but yet still lie below us on the table.
That tells me we have a lot of spare capacity.
Our priority has to be to properly implement a functioning unit and way of playing.

 

[SqualorVictoria]

http://www.totalsportek.com/money/english-premier-league-wage-bills-club-by-club/

City's wage bill was higher than United's last year and the gap will have widened this season, given they've signed twice as many players as us in the last two windows and we've offset the Sanchez signing by offloading Rooney, Schweinsteiger, Depay and Schneiderlin (while giving Ibra a reduced wage).

If we have high earners sitting on our bench, recent form shows they'll be gone in the summer, as per my original point.

And this season's wage bill could be even bigger if City do win the league due to the paid bonuses, but that wouldn't necessarily mean that they won the league because their wage bill was the biggest. They've won the league, so got paid even better.

 

[JohnnyKills]

And this season's wage bill could be even bigger if City do win the league due to the paid bonuses, but that wouldn't necessarily mean that they won the league because their wage bill was the biggest. They've won the league, so got paid even better.

Yeah agreed.

 

[Adisa]

It's like some people have given up and accepted we can't compete with this City side.
"They're doping, too much money, etc"
I actually predicted third at the start of the season for us but haven't seen how the season has panned out, I'm having trouble accepting we can't compete.
We've played within ourselves for the value majority of the season and still lie in second.
Think referencing their money is a cop out imo.

 

[Adisa]

Also, talk about them signing Iniesta.

 

[Greek9]

Can someone explain to me how an entire fanbase can have a similar attitude and characteristics? Is a more generalized nature of the fans formed throughout decades of said team's success? For Manchester United fans could be referred more understanding and more patient as well as more nostalgic at times due to long spells of success in their history? Forget match-thread reactions and such, im talking about general attitude on a calm mind, im asking cause i visited the Manchester City forum and they all seem so angry and annoyingly bitter and childish, i was never a believer of generalizing a fanbase cause it seems stupid to me as every person is different but surfing on different club forums now i can see a completely different attitude from site to site. I am not born in England so i never had face to face contact with english fans all of this talk is judging from internet experience, but i've seen plenty of times in this forum people having strong opinions for Pool fans or City fans in general and im wondering, anyone care to explain?

 

[Cait Sith]

Yes because posting rate is a factor in football knowledge or otherwise.

It's a prediction. I honestly don't see Bayern, Real or Barca beating this City team over two legs. I think they'll be too blind to their qualities.

This must be some sort of joke that I'm not getting. Pep Guardiola literally coached 2 of those clubs and Real Madrid for obvious reasons know Pep's style very well too so how is Liverpool likelier to beat City than the top 3 teams in the world?

 

[M113FF]

http://www.totalsportek.com/money/english-premier-league-wage-bills-club-by-club/

City's wage bill was higher than United's last year and the gap will have widened this season, given they've signed twice as many players as us in the last two windows and we've offset the Sanchez signing by offloading Rooney, Schweinsteiger, Depay and Schneiderlin (while giving Ibra a reduced wage).

If we have high earners sitting on our bench, recent form shows they'll be gone in the summer, as per my original point.

The figures in that link are out of date and incorrect.

United's final figure in 2016/2017 accounts was £264m and for City the 12 month figure was £244m.

United's Q2 figures for 2017/2018 published last month for wages was £139.6m for the 1st 6 months.