[westmeath]

Wtf is that twirly thing about. It never works, he’s not able to do it and even if he was it wouldn’t achieve much for the team.

His display yesterday wasn’t as bad or as good as some here have been saying. He grew into the game well and put in a good shift, still running hard at the end. The pass for Rashfords second goal was top drawer

 

[LiquidSnake]

Wtf is that twirly thing about. It never works, he’s not able to do it and even if he was it wouldn’t achieve much for the team.

His display yesterday wasn’t as bad or as good as some here have been saying. He grew into the game well and put in a good shift, still running hard at the end. The pass for Rashfords second goal was top drawer

Basically the same for me. Some dreadful choices and sloppy passes, then he gives you some qualities actions. A decent game by all account.

Far from impressed by him and I think he was one of the culprit in a somewhat dysfunctional midfield but he sealed the deal with 2 actions.

He is a world cup winner and doesn't need any instructions.

I don't think this type of statement is accurate, honestly. I don't even talk about Pogba, but there's a good chunk of players that won Champions League or World Cup with a huge role and that are far from the most astute player tactically...

 

[MadDogg]

He needs to improve his decision making about when to attempt the tricks. He was dispossessed five times yesterday, two of which were fine as the potential advantage if they came off outweighed the negatives if they didn't (and he had a couple of other times where it did work). But the other three were simply bad decisions, as the potential negative from it was putting us in a fairly bad situation and it wasn't worth the risk.

Hopefully the team as a whole continues improving, and that will help his confidence both in general and in his teammates so he won't try to do too much himself.

 

[haram]

Not a great game but two outstanding assists.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

@Classical Mechanic just posted a stat in another thread about the ball being turned over after Pogba was in possession 25 times over the course of that match. That's an astonishing statistic. We're absolutely fecked if this is going to the norm for him.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Actually I think its 24 times as whoscored seem to have revised his dispossessions from 5 to 4.

https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1...er-League-2019-2020-Manchester-United-Chelsea

I took the stats from his unsuccessful touches + dispossessions + unsuccessful passes.

I stand to be corrected if I've calculated wrong.

Jorginho and Kovacic had 3 unsuccessful touches and dispossessions between them. McT and Pogba 16.

 

[mancan92]

Guy still isn't quite match fit and has had an injury yet produced 2 absolutely amazing goals. Can people give him any allowance?

 

[The Cat]

Guy still isn't quite match fit and has had an injury yet produced 2 absolutely amazing goals. Can people give him any allowance?

Yes but not for that twisty turny nonsense he loves. I don't want to see that ever again.

 

[mancan92]

Yes but not for that twisty turny nonsense he loves. I don't want to see that ever again.

He is a flair player part of him getting up to speed is him doing his tricks in Match scenarios.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

@Classical Mechanic just posted a stat in another thread about the ball being turned over after Pogba was in possession 25 times over the course of that match. That's an astonishing statistic. We're absolutely fecked if this is going to the norm for him.

Any idea how often that was in the first half though @Pogue Mahone @Classical Mechanic ? Both he, McTom, Lingard and Pereira couldn't get to terms with Chelsea's narrow 5 outnumbering them in the first half.

Second half they all got to grips with it and I'd imagine McTom and Pogba turned the ball over at a far more acceptable rate.

 

[Ander herrera the warrior]

What did Ole say?

Because I think we'd be a much better balanced side with the midfield you mentioned.

Someone was asking Ole about Pogba's position in the side and about some mistake he did. His immediate reaction was that Pogba can play in many positions like attacking midfield. Anyways here is what he said.

“I think Paul can do many jobs. He can do the attacking midfield job. Today, he was more of the link player and when you’ve got [Victor] Lindelof, Maguire and [David] De Gea at the back, you can play like that. He was asked to play that sitting role and he had to do lots of running in the first half, but we’re fit and he’s fit. That third goal is a fantastic pass and the run for the fourth - I just wanted him to go all then way and open his legs and finish it himself.

”Ive always said he’s a top lad and its such a professional. He loves playing football. He grows more at Old Trafford. He’s a World Cup winner and there’s no point of letting yourself down on the pitch. He lost it a few times but it doesn’t matter.“

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Actually I think its 24 times as whoscored seem to have revised his dispossessions from 5 to 4.

https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1...er-League-2019-2020-Manchester-United-Chelsea

I took the stats from his unsuccessful touches + dispossessions + unsuccessful passes.

I stand to be corrected if I've calculated wrong.

Jorginho and Kovacic had 3 unsuccessful touches and dispossessions between them. McT and Pogba 16.

Those are rotten stats.

McT gets a “yong and lernin” excuse as we can expect someone his age to put in an occasional shocker (and I did think he was shocking, on the ball anyway) For a (relatively) seasoned pro like Pogba to be so unbelievably careless with the ball is a bit of a disaster for the team. Even though he had some brilliant contributions too.

 

[Begleri]

If Pogba gets injured we are absolutely fecked. His vision is insane.

 

[Cassidy]

Those are rotten stats.

McT gets a “yong and lernin” excuse as we can expect someone his age to put in an occasional shocker (and I did think he was shocking, on the ball anyway) For a (relatively) seasoned pro like Pogba to be so unbelievably careless with the ball is a bit of a disaster for the team. Even though he had some brilliant contributions too.

Agree, he was a bit of a liability especially first half

 

[BusbyMalone]

There can't be too many players who so consistently vacillates between the sublime and the utterly ordinary within a single game. His two assists were exceptional yet, conversely, his errors that led to the numerous losses of possession were amateurish. He's an enigma.

 

[Leif GW]

He needs to cut down on the crap he's attempting on our own half, like that spin move or whatever it is he's trying to do, and keep it simpler. Unnecessary risk-taking.

Very nice actions for the goals he was involved with, though. That crossball was splendid.

 

[fps]

I mean, he did, but then at the start of Ole's tenure he improved drastically - had a fantastic spell of form where he seemed to really be developing into the genuine heartbeat of the team we'd been waiting for him to come. Ultimately he's probably quite a frustrating player, but I don't think he's entirely chucked it as such and if our fortunes improve and morale in the dressing rooms picks up as a result, no reason he can't have a strong season.

Someone shared the United shooting game from a couple of years ago - as a pop at Smalling's shooting. It was a small segment with Pogba, Smalling, Mata and Rashford. It's interesting to see Pogba just being himself. Very small vid, but he came across as quite joyful but quite shy. The expectation he'd be a *leader* hasn't come true, but if Maguire steps up, and others too, he won't have to be, he can just be a talented player in the team. I feel he may be much happier that way - he seems to enjoy being part of a team, not some individual superstar.

 

[Andersonson]

He needs to mature as a player. He has everything in his locker. The some of his passing were sublime! But he needs to learn when and where he can do his showboating. Losing the ball in dangerous areas so many times could've lost us the match.

 

[BluesJr]

Should be captain.

 

[Smores]

I don't understand why such an experienced player is making the same mistakes consistently. I mean we must do post match analysis with him and tell him to sort it out?

 

[Alexit]

Some say he's our best outfield player, I think he's our best player period. Absolute monster of a midfielder! The gulf in class between him and his teammates is evident even when he's not at 100 percent.

I will shed a tear if he leaves for Real Madrid next year.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Well, based on Ole's comments it does seem he's prepared to play a relatively high-risk game in the middle of the park. Strengthening the defense, as he undoubtedly has, makes sense in that regard. He might not seek to control the middle at all, but rely on effective transitional play. Shades of a certain legendary manager if so. Not unproblematic, though. Some will question whether that sort of football can be effective at the highest level these days.

But in Pogba's case it isn't just a question of going for high-risk options: the latter is fine, in itself, he has to do that to some extent or he'd be pretty pointless out there. It's the downright sloppiness he needs to work on, and the obviously senseless dallying on the ball in cases where any potential payoff is extremely unlikely.

He'd be a better player if he just kept it simple a little more frequently - and this is especially true if he's to continue playing in a deeper role.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Well, based on Ole's comments it does seem he's prepared to play a relatively high-risk game in the middle of the park. Strengthening the defense, as he undoubtedly has, makes sense in that regard. He might not seek to control the middle at all, but rely on effective transitional play. Shades of a certain legendary manager if so. Not unproblematic, though. Some will question whether that sort of football can be effective at the highest level these days.

But in Pogba's case it isn't just a question of going for high-risk options: the latter is fine, in itself, he has to do that to some extent or he'd be pretty pointless out there. It's the downright sloppiness he needs to work on, and the obviously senseless dallying on the ball in cases where any potential payoff is extremely unlikely.

He'd be a better player if he just kept it simple a little more frequently - and this is especially true if he's to continue playing in a deeper role.

It’s the way he seems to almost seek out physical contact every time he receives the ball that gets him in trouble. It’s as though he thinks he’s still a big kid, playing against smaller kids. He badly needs to grow out of that habit.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Well, based on Ole's comments it does seem he's prepared to play a relatively high-risk game in the middle of the park

I don't think includes failing to control a football, more like leaving one winger up top at all times whilst leaving one full back exposed.

 

[royboy16]

Absolutely brilliant today. I’ve been a big critic but he was great today

He certainly wasnt brilliant first half.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

I don't think includes failing to control a football, more like leaving one winger up top at all times whilst leaving one full back exposed.

He comments explicitly on Pogba, though: acknowledges that he loses possession in the middle at times - but doesn't consider it important (presumably because he trusts the defense + DDG to deal with it).

That's a pretty direct statement on his part, I'd say - surprised by its directness, even. At face value, at least, he's stating plainly enough that we won't worry too much about conceding possession ("dominating" the middle of the park) - but focus on hitting the opposition on the break. Again, this is Fergie style football - can't call it anything else.

 

[kouroux]

It’s the way he seems to almost seek out physical contact every time he receives the ball that gets him in trouble. It’s as though he thinks he’s still a big kid, playing against smaller kids. He badly needs to grow out of that habit.

That's such a good description of his major recurring problem. The problem is that his passing is his best attribute and should simply use it more in those situations before seeking that pointless physical battle.
That's the thing that annoys me the most about him, there isn't another CM in the World who does this as often as him.

 

[Cassidy]

He comments explicitly on Pogba, though: acknowledges that he loses possession in the middle at times - but doesn't consider it important (presumably because he trusts the defense + DDG to deal with it).

That's a pretty direct statement on his part, I'd say - surprised by its directness, even. At face value, at least, he's stating plainly enough that we won't worry too much about conceding possession ("dominating" the middle of the park) - but focus on hitting the opposition on the break. Again, this is Fergie style football - can't call it anything else.

You're suggesting we didn't dominate the middle of the park under Fergie?

 

[Chesterlestreet]

You're suggesting we didn't dominate the middle of the park under Fergie?

In a contemporary sense? Obviously not.

We excelled at transitional play, not at suffocating the opposition by passing them to death.

 

[Cassidy]

In a contemporary sense? Obviously not.

We excelled at transitional play, not at suffocating the opposition by passing them to death.

I think Fergie had a few different teams and in the league there were teams which completely dominated midfield, we were not always counter attacking. There were times we scored goals after 30+ passes

Fergie was a master at adaptation and especially in tactical flexibility

 

[Chesterlestreet]

There were times we scored goals after 30+ passes

Not much that didn't happen at times during Fergie's time, he was in charge for more than a quarter of a decade. Would you say that long periods of ball retention for the sake of it (with an aim to tire the opposition out) characterized any of Fergie's vintages? I'd say definitely not myself.

Fergie generally placed more importance on (in no particular order):

* Defensive solidity
* Wing play
* Quick transitions
* Extreme offensive qualities
* Mentality

than on having central midfielders who'd always, or most of the time, have the upper hand in terms of possession and/or control.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Ole has to push him to keep things more simple in our own half. Some of his sloppy play was just absurd. On the other hand it would help to support him with more midfielders who can retain and control possession as his creativity and drive is fanstastic.

 

[ice-bionic red]

6/10 yet still gets 2 fantastic assists. When he picks up top form we could get a lot more results like this.

Great to see us do well when he doesn’t

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Not much that didn't happen at times during Fergie's time, he was in charge for more than a quarter of a decade. Would you say that long periods of ball retention for the sake of it (with an aim to tire the opposition out) characterized any of Fergie's vintages? I'd say definitely not myself.

Fergie generally placed more importance on (in no particular order):

* Defensive solidity
* Wing play
* Quick transitions
* Extreme offensive qualities
* Mentality

than on having central midfielders who'd always, or most of the time, have the upper hand in terms of possession and/or control.

That's just not true. Carrick always had 55+ passes a game, 88%+ pass completion rates and very very low turnover rates from bad touches and dispossessions. Scholes had 55+ passes per game 90-93% pass completion rates and very very low turnover rates through dispossessions and bad touches.

It sounds like Ole is protecting Pogba from criticism to me. No manger can be happy with such profligacy with the ball in midfield.

 

[Cassidy]

Not much that didn't happen at times during Fergie's time, he was in charge for more than a quarter of a decade. Would you say that long periods of ball retention for the sake of it (with an aim to tire the opposition out) characterized any of Fergie's vintages? I'd say definitely not myself.

Fergie generally placed more importance on (in no particular order):

* Defensive solidity
* Wing play
* Quick transitions
* Extreme offensive qualities
* Mentality

than on having central midfielders who'd always, or most of the time, have the upper hand in terms of possession and/or control.

Thats has nothing to do with not dominating midfield which was the point I raised.
We dominated the ball for long period of plenty of games under Fergie and completely dominated midfield in games too, especially in the league

Anyway lets not derail this thread

 

[Smores]

That's just not true. Carrick always had 55+ passes a game, 88%+ pass completion rates and very very low turnover rates from bad touches and dispossessions. Scholes had 55+ passes per game 90-93% pass completion rates and very very low turnover rates through dispossessions and bad touches.

It sounds like Ole is protecting Pogba from criticism to me. No manger can be happy with such profligacy with the ball in midfield.

Exactly this, especially during the Carrick era. Keeping possession centrally and moving it across from side to side was certainly a hallmark of our play. We had a lot of threads about it on here.

I'd be very surprised if Ole didn't want Pogba to at least be involved in performing that same role.

 

[711]

Not much that didn't happen at times during Fergie's time, he was in charge for more than a quarter of a decade. Would you say that long periods of ball retention for the sake of it (with an aim to tire the opposition out) characterized any of Fergie's vintages? I'd say definitely not myself.

Fergie generally placed more importance on (in no particular order):

* Defensive solidity
* Wing play
* Quick transitions
* Extreme offensive qualities
* Mentality

than on having central midfielders who'd always, or most of the time, have the upper hand in terms of possession and/or control.

Very much so in his last few years, check out the zombie football threads.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

It sounds like Ole is protecting Pogba from criticism to me.

Of course he is.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Very much so in his last few years, check out the zombie football threads.

The zombie football was a sign of decline, it wasn't a tactical variation Fergie went in for as such (that would be insane - you can't possibly compare zombie football to tiki-taka or other systems that overtly seek to dominate possession).

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Anyway lets not derail this thread

Agreed.

What one understands by "dominate" is obviously key here, though. For another thread.