Protests following the killing of George Floyd

JPRouve said:
Don't move the goalpost, you claimed that people in the west weren't aware of who were their politicians. For some reason you think that people don't see the truth or aren't continuously complaining about it. Your only goal here was to do what you do in most threads which is a generic criticism of the west and everything linked to it.

Human rights organizations have criticized the US for their behavior regarding racism, their treatment of the press and police brutality. Citizens in the west have criticized their own governments, the US and everyone in between and they have done so for decades.
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Again, you resort to personal remarks, when I have never done that to you. Whatever.

I'm not moving any goalposts, I keep on saying the same thing and I hate to repeat myself, but because of your false accusations, my natural reaction is to become defensive.

We are talking about centuries of colonial oppression and systemic racism, which has caused the suffering of hundreds of millions of people. And the hypocrisy I keep talking about is that the West always points the finger towards their "enemies" when it comes to human rights, democracy, freedom of speech, etc., but when it comes to their own, nothing drastic has ever been done to tackle these issues and to confront the ways in which these countries gained their wealth, making them the leaders of the world in financial, technological or cultural sense.

Criticism isn't enough anymore, these organisations and these leaders need to show the real issues and finally start doing something about them. And the people need to put pressure on their governments, or else nothing will ever change.
 
Another shocking video of a Police officer abusing the law instead of enforcing it.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52932611

There's no excuse for this type of behaviour and it seems to me the US Police have large number of recruits who are not trained properly and feel they can get away with just about anything. I'm pretty sure they have felt this more since Trump came into power.

I just don't know how they can change things in the US. Trump has a lot of support and a majority of people probably support how the police are dealing with the protests. People this side of the Atlantic are shocked but it seems to me the average US citizen just sees this as a slight escalation of what has always happened. In fact I a saw a previous poster say these were the largest protests ever when I suspect the protests of the 60's were larger.

My cynicism on US politics just grows by the day and I just don't think it will ever change. Protests have proven to not work. They even had a black president and it still happens.
 
blue blue said:
Another shocking video of a Police officer abusing the law instead of enforcing it.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52932611

There's no excuse for this type of behaviour and it seems to me the US Police have large number of recruits who are not trained properly and feel they can get away with just about anything. I'm pretty sure they have felt this more since Trump came into power.

I just don't know how they can change things in the US. Trump has a lot of support and a majority of people probably support how the police are dealing with the protests. People this side of the Atlantic are shocked but it seems to me the average US citizen just sees this as a slight escalation of what has always happened. In fact I a saw a previous poster say these were the largest protests ever when I suspect the protests of the 60's were larger.

My cynicism on US politics just grows by the day and I just don't think it will ever change. Protests have proven to not work. They even had a black president and it still happens.
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Seen so many videos like this in the last few days. It's gobsmacking and I assume it must be an order directly from the head Klansmann.

Thing is this is the sort of stuff the US often shows on it's own news networks to justify piling into another country to secure it's resources under the guise of defending human rights. The big bad wolf has finally been unmasked.
 
DoomSlayer said:
Again, you resort to personal remarks, when I have never done that to you. Whatever.

I'm not moving any goalposts, I keep on saying the same thing and I hate to repeat myself, but because of your false accusations, my natural reaction is to become defensive.

We are talking about centuries of colonial oppression and systemic racism, which has caused the suffering of hundreds of millions of people. And the hypocrisy I keep talking about is that the West always points the finger towards their "enemies" when it comes to human rights, democracy, freedom of speech, etc., but when it comes to their own, nothing drastic has ever been done to tackle these issues and to confront the ways in which these countries gained their wealth, making them the leaders of the world in financial, technological or cultural sense.

Criticism isn't enough anymore, these organisations and these leaders need to show the real issues and finally start doing something about them. And the people need to put pressure on their governments, or else nothing will ever change.
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First the West isn't homogeneous that's the first thing that irks me with your rhetoric, secondly politicians and governement point the fingers at their "enemies" because they are their "enemies" there is nothing honest about it and they don't do it to the hundreds of countries that are seen as neutral, they are not human rights organization and don't actually care about it anyway, they are also routinely criticized and lose elections for it, british posters can tell you a thing or two about Tony Blair on that subject.
Thirdly and this is the point that really gets on my nerve, people in the west aren't homogeneous either, most people do not support the politicians that are currently in power, we don't like them, we don't trust them and we say it on every platform possible but democracy means that we have to accept the least of several evils. And a large amount don't even vote because they believe that the entire system is rotten, so when you make the claims that you made it shows that you have no idea about "The West".

So two things stop generalizing and secondly stop acting as if people weren't aware when it's pretty easy to find out that it's wrong, this forum being an example.
 
TheReligion said:
Your point being that in your opinion there is too much police violence around the world? Yeah sure. You are entitled to your opinions.
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How much police violence is acceptable to you? Given, in particular, that they are employed to prevent violence. I would say that it's categorically not an opinion to state that there is too much police violence.
 
Flying high said:
How much police violence is acceptable to you? Given, in particular, that they are employed to prevent violence. I would say that it's categorically not an opinion to state that there is too much police violence.
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It depends a lot on the violence within society. I would say that your question can only be rhetorical because the answer is too contextual.
 
JPRouve said:
First the West isn't homogeneous that's the first thing that irks me with your rhetoric, secondly politicians and governement point the fingers at their "enemies" because they are their "enemies" there is nothing honest about it and they don't do it to the hundreds of countries that are seen as neutral, they are not human rights organization and don't actually care about it anyway, they are also routinely criticized and lose elections for it, british posters can tell you a thing or two about Tony Blair on that subject.
Thirdly and this is the point that really gets on my nerve, people in the west aren't homogeneous either, most people do not support the politicians that are currently in power, we don't like them, we don't trust them and we say it on every platform possible but democracy means that we have to accept the least of several evils. And a large amount don't even vote because they believe that the entire system is rotten, so when you make the claims that you made it shows that you have no idea about "The West".

So two things stop generalizing and secondly stop acting as if people weren't aware when it's pretty easy to find out that it's wrong, this forum being an example.
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You just proved one of my points when talking about the "enemies".

The rest is just your projection on what I'm saying - I specifically said that a minority of people have been speaking about it for as long as possible, but overall the Western nations generally don't give a feck. Of course I'm not talking about the oppressed minorities and communities, that have been strongly against the Western system, that is self-explanatory.

In all this, I also include the NGOs, the media and the important public speakers, who seem to always have strong opinions on outside matters, but these sort of severe domestic issues are consistently glossed over.
 
Flying high said:
How much police violence is acceptable to you? Given, in particular, that they are employed to prevent violence. I would say that it's categorically not an opinion to state that there is too much police violence.
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Whatever is proportionate, lawful, appropriate and necessary? Sadly use of force is a byproduct of the role and is often required to varying degrees in the execution of duty. It's when it falls outside of the above and becomes unlawful that it should rightly be pointed out and dealt with.
 
TheReligion said:
Whatever is proportionate, lawful, appropriate and necessary? Sadly use of force is a byproduct of the role and is often required to varying degrees in the execution of duty. It's when it falls outside of the above and becomes unlawful that it should rightly be pointed out and dealt with.
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Isn't that conflating use of force and violence though? I don't think anyone has a problem with a justified use of force, @Flying high was referring to violence though. To me a police officer stops representing the rule of law the moment he turns violent. He's just another criminal at that point.
 
Abizzz said:
Isn't that conflating use of force and violence though? I don't think anyone has a problem with a justified use of force, @Flying high was referring to violence though. To me a police officer stops representing the rule of law the moment he turns violent. He's just another criminal at that point.
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I don't know. Ask @Flying high what his intentions are. I posted a critique to what I'm seeing from the US police and explained that even from a policing perspective I can't relate to with what I am seeing on such a wide scale. It's just mass beatings with no purpose or tactics. I was then bizarrely asked to agree to a blanket statement that the police across the world are too violent and told that that's a fact.

I'm pretty confused as to how we've jumped to that when I never disagreed that it was wrong in the first place.
 
JPRouve said:
It depends a lot on the violence within society. I would say that your question can only be rhetorical because the answer is too contextual.
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Sure, the police to some extent will reflect the society from which they are drawn. The demands of the job are high, and the bar to entry is necessarily fairly low. Training can only go so far, culture is far more important. Racist police officers, for example, are probably well known within their units. It may be that in some areas, they are even in the majority. It's only when they are caught crossing a line that they are actually sacked. They should be weeded out long before they get to that point.
 
CassiusClaymore said:
Seen so many videos like this in the last few days. It's gobsmacking and I assume it must be an order directly from the head Klansmann.

Thing is this is the sort of stuff the US often shows on it's own news networks to justify piling into another country to secure it's resources under the guise of defending human rights. The big bad wolf has finally been unmasked.
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They were battering the black people in the 60's and before and the whole world saw it then. Linchings, baton charges and and public assaults of black people on the TV. Unmasking now, unmasking in the past? What's the difference it will never change. All that will happen is that US society will continue to spiral down into a pit of murder and injustice.
 
TheReligion said:
I don't know. Ask @Flying high what his intentions are. I posted a critique to what I'm seeing from the US police and explained that even from a policing perspective I can't relate to with what I am seeing on such a wide scale. It's just mass beatings with no purpose or tactics. I was then bizarrely asked to agree to a blanket statement that the police across the world are too violent and told that that's a fact.

I'm pretty confused as to how we've jumped to that.
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Ah, alright. I think mixing up legitimate use of force with what we've all witnessed these past weeks does a disservice to the good cops out there. I appreciate that was neither your nor @Flying high's intention, but I've seeing it done loads by those trying to defend the current police tactics in the US, so felt it worthy of highlighting.
 
Abizzz said:
Ah, alright. I think mixing up legitimate use of force with what we've all witnessed these past weeks does a disservice to the good cops out there. I appreciate that was neither your nor @Flying high's intention, but I've seeing it done loads by those trying to defend the current police tactics in the US, so felt it worthy of highlighting.
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Yeah I agree. You can't defend what you see in the States which is the point I was making. Sometimes I can look at something and perhaps offer a different take/perspective but what I'm seeing in the States is just wild and out of control.
 
Abizzz said:
Isn't that conflating use of force and violence though? I don't think anyone has a problem with a justified use of force, @Flying high was referring to violence though. To me a police officer stops representing the rule of law the moment he turns violent. He's just another criminal at that point.
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There's a very fine line between force and violence. One which I don't doubt would be difficult to tread in the midst of a significant disturbance. I certainly don't discount the fear that many police must feel while doing their jobs. Fear of black people, I believe, plays a part in the kind of thing that happened to George Floyd. Fear of losing control, plays a large part in the actions we can see in so many videos from the streets right now.

But the police have to restrain themselves. Especially when emotions are running so high. Sending them out there mob handed with riot gear just incites violence on both sides. It often does more harm than good to try to quell protests.
 
Flying high said:
Sure, the police to some extent will reflect the society from which they are drawn. The demands of the job are high, and the bar to entry is necessarily fairly low. Training can only go so far, culture is far more important. Racist police officers, for example, are probably well known within their units. It may be that in some areas, they are even in the majority. It's only when they are caught crossing a line that they are actually sacked. They should be weeded out long before they get to that point.
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I agree but that's tangential, your previous question can't be answered without context, particularly when you may be making a semantic distinction between "use of force" and violence which are essentially both Violence. If your question was in fact whether there is too much unjustifiable uses of force then I will agree with you, it seems that to some extent the police in most countries that I know often uses force when it's not needed.
I make that distinction because I have seen people say things that would make you believe that citizens are angels, that organized crime isn't a thing and that there are no situations were the police could and should use violence. Just an example that doesn't concern the police but in the last years in France people have assaulted many firefighters and emergency response personnels, we live in a society where a lot of scumbags are ready to attack anyone when they are stressed, drunk or under the influence of susbstances, the police has to deal with these people on a daily basis and it's easy to assume that some officers can't handle the stress and simply lose their shit, it's not an excuse and they need to fix themselves but sometimes we look at things without any sort of nuance, they regularly have to use force or at least think about it and because it's a judgement call made in a stressful context they may take the wrong decision.

Now what we are seeing during these protest is mainly shocking and shows that there is a lack of discipline within police ranks, a lack of accountability and a lack of pride. Some of the things that we are seeing are shameful and any police officers that doesn't feel ashamed for himself and his colleagues should think about finding a different job because as you said they are supposed to have higher standards, they can't act like common criminals.
 
JPRouve said:
I agree but that's tangential, your previous question can't be answered without context, particularly when you may be making a semantic distinction between "use of force" and violence which are essentially both Violence. If your question was in fact whether there is too much unjustifiable uses of force then I will agree with you, it seems that to some extent the police in most countries that I know often uses force when it's not needed.
I make that distinction because I have seen people say things that would make you believe that citizens are angels, that organized crime isn't a thing and that there are no situations were the police could and should use violence. Just an example that doesn't concern the police but in the last years in France people have assaulted many firefighters and emergency response personnels, we live in a society where a lot of scumbags are ready to attack anyone when they are stressed, drunk or under the influence of susbstances, the police has to deal with these people on a daily basis and it's easy to assume that some officers can't handle the stress and simply lose their shit, it's not an excuse and they need to fix themselves but sometimes we look at things without any sort of nuance, they regularly have to use force or at least think about it and because it's a judgement call made in a stressful context they may take the wrong decision.

Now what we are seeing during these protest is mainly shocking and shows that there is a lack of discipline within police ranks, a lack of accountability and a lack of pride. Some of the things that we are seeing are shameful and any police officers that doesn't feel ashamed for himself and his colleagues should think about finding a different job because as you said they are supposed to have higher standards, they can't act like common criminals.
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I agree with this totally.

In some ways, the police of today are paying the price for the mistakes of the police of yesterday. Or their leadership at least. In Britain we have had peaceful protests charged by mounted police wielding batons. Such practices as kettling, which had the intention of creating trouble within the crowd. The relationship between the police and wider society is damaged, to say the least. In some quarters, it's totally broken.
 
Flying high said:
Sure, the police to some extent will reflect the society from which they are drawn. The demands of the job are high, and the bar to entry is necessarily fairly low. Training can only go so far, culture is far more important. Racist police officers, for example, are probably well known within their units. It may be that in some areas, they are even in the majority. It's only when they are caught crossing a line that they are actually sacked. They should be weeded out long before they get to that point.
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While cultural influences are important it is possible for training to filter out racism and racists. Hone in on suspected racists. Show them videos of assaults on black people and ask them their opinions. If they don't see the problem get them out of the force.

The will isn't there. Not at the bottom, middle or top. Institutional racism within the Police force will not be changed with a racist President telling them to dominate the streets. This will get worse and it's just a case of how far the protesters are prepared to go. If they could mobilise the majority they would stand a chance but it would have to be sustained effort over many years. How do you change the mindset of such a large proportion of the population?

Country music against racism maybe?
 
Flying high said:
There's a very fine line between force and violence. One which I don't doubt would be difficult to tread in the midst of a significant disturbance. I certainly don't discount the fear that many police must feel while doing their jobs. Fear of black people, I believe, plays a part in the kind of thing that happened to George Floyd. Fear of losing control, plays a large part in the actions we can see in so many videos from the streets right now.

But the police have to restrain themselves. Especially when emotions are running so high. Sending them out there mob handed with riot gear just incites violence on both sides. It often does more harm than good to try to quell protests.
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Exactly and that's what I was saying when I was critical about the tactics and leadership being shown on the ground. If you send officers out immediately in riot gear with rubber bullets, tear gas and public order batons it's as if you're stoking the fire and pointing them in that direction. Its very different from the approach in the UK and is very much "escalate to de-escalate". This is why there is likely much truth in what @oates mentioned about instructions coming from above to go in and create havoc.

Of course that doesn't excuse what we are seeing. Far from it. Officers should be able to think for themselves and show restraint. What it does do though is highlight how much of an issue there is in the US beyond just what you see from frontline officers.
 
DoomSlayer said:
You just proved one of my points when talking about the "enemies".

The rest is just your projection on what I'm saying - I specifically said that a minority of people have been speaking about it for as long as possible, but overall the Western nations generally don't give a feck. Of course I'm not talking about the oppressed minorities and communities, that have been strongly against the Western system, that is self-explanatory.

In all this, I also include the NGOs, the media and the important public speakers, who seem to always have strong opinions on outside matters, but these sort of severe domestic issues are consistently glossed over.
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Let me say it this way, the majority of the population didn't vote for the current leaders because they voted for someone else or because they refused to vote for all candidates. It's not just the minorities that are against current leaders, it's the majority. And NGOs have criticized these leaders, I already told you that the US are on the front page of Amnesty International, the US are even on it for two reasons, the first one is for the George Floyd case and the other because "Trump tramples right to protests", it's the same thing with RSF and Human rights watch.
 
Flying high said:
I agree with this totally.

In some ways, the police of today are paying the price for the mistakes of the police of yesterday. Or their leadership at least. In Britain we have had peaceful protests charged by mounted police wielding batons. Such practices as kettling, which had the intention of creating trouble within the crowd. The relationship between the police and wider society is damaged, to say the least. In some quarters, it's totally broken.
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I think trying to lump in the UK police with the wide spread violence seen in the US at the moment by their law enforcement is wrong and untrue. Unless you have examples of police here shooting crowds with rubber bullets and tear gas whilst handing out indiscriminate beatings across the whole country?
 
What's going on in the US now is the UK in ten years now perhaps to a lesser degree. This country is being steered more towards the US which will only increase stratification of society and lead to more and more civil unrest. MLK always knew it was poverty that caused most problems and the US system breeds poverty and discontent. I'm seeing it more here in the UK and think it's only getting worse.
 
JPRouve said:
Let me say it this way, the majority of the population didn't vote for the current leaders because they voted for someone else or because they refused to vote for all candidates. It's not just the minorities that are against current leaders, it's the majority. And NGOs have criticized these leaders, I already told you that the US are on the front page of Amnesty International, the US are even on it for two reasons, the first one is for the George Floyd case and the other because "Trump tramples right to protests", it's the same thing with RSF and Human rights watch.
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Ok, I don't particularly agree with the first part of your post, but it's a fair view to have, I just don't agree with it due to the things I outlined in my previous comments.

I didn't know about the actions of those NGOs that you are talking about, but then this means there is a problem where it is not spoken about them enough in public and in the media. None of this can be seen in the local media in my country and also in the Western media outlets that I've read. But when it concerns similar issues outside the Western world, it's almost always front page news and we see leaders, politicians and public speakers talk about those events extensively, trying to paint a certain picture in the public eye and project their political agenda.

It's disgustingly hypocritical and will never sit right with me, these sort of actions have further lead to more unjust suffering and oppression around the world, due to different conflicts and inhumane treatment against whole nations, societies and communities.
 
Grinner said:
What's going on in the US now is the UK in ten years now perhaps to a lesser degree. This country is being steered more towards the US which will only increase stratification of society and lead to more and more civil unrest. MLK always knew it was poverty that caused most problems and the US system breeds poverty and discontent. I'm seeing it more here in the UK and think it's only getting worse.
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I agree with this to a degree and think we must put the brakes on. It's frustrating how Covid-19 has hit the economy as it did feel as though we were coming away from austerity. Now we will be most certainly plunged back in, even more so with the current government.
 
Trump, The Tories, Bolsonaro all governments with strong fascist sympathies, all unaccountable, all swept to power on a wave of extremism. Then Russia and China who are a law unto themselves. No government or institution is going to hold their feet to the fire.

If it's not the people who are going to wriggle us out of the clutches of violent authoritarian regimes then no one will. And thus far the people have shown little willing. Hoping that this is the start of something.
 
Leroy The Red said:
Christ, missed this one. Somehow you've managed two posts of that horseshit and you're yet to be called a Cnut. That's impressive.


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...hnic-britons-face-shocking-job-discrimination


https://www.citymetric.com/politics...e-rental-sector-enables-racist-landlords-2919



https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/blog/2018/03/bme-representation-nhs-leadership

But no no, you're right, it's all to do with their finances growing up. Now go on, tell me again how you've had "similar nonsense from me before so wont go any further"...

Ignorant, deluded imbecile.

And what the feck is ". I appreciate the counter argument will be ethnic minorities are poor due to their skin colour.
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‘Ignorant, deluded, imbecile, cnut.’ Yet I’m the disgusting one?

And that last article. Goes back to my financial situation argument anyway. Many immigrants are able to get visas to work for NHS jobs at lower level pay grades. It’s how they get the visa. That is why there is a disproportionate amount of ethnic minorities in those types of roles compared to board level.

As I said to simply blame systematic racism for all these problems is far to simplistic. But you won’t see my point as I can tell you’re one of those angry types who simply berates other posters who don’t agree with you.
 
In some respects, for me this is similar to mass shootings - it has happened so much that sadly I have become somewhat desensitized to it.
 
TheReligion said:
Exactly and that's what I was saying when I was critical about the tactics and leadership being shown on the ground. If you send officers out immediately in riot gear with rubber bullets, tear gas and public order batons it's as if you're stoking the fire and pointing them in that direction. Its very different from the approach in the UK and is very much "escalate to de-escalate". This is why there is likely much truth in what @oates mentioned about instructions coming from above to go in and create havoc.

Of course that doesn't excuse what we are seeing. Far from it. Officers should be able to think for themselves and show restraint. What it does do though is highlight how much of an issue there is in the US beyond just what you see from frontline officers.
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I cannot see that if being the case there cannot be some huge civil cases and criminal charges all the way to the top eventually. And a lot of job losses if some are lucky whilst others rot in prison.
 
Flying high said:
Sure, the police to some extent will reflect the society from which they are drawn. The demands of the job are high, and the bar to entry is necessarily fairly low. Training can only go so far, culture is far more important. Racist police officers, for example, are probably well known within their units. It may be that in some areas, they are even in the majority. It's only when they are caught crossing a line that they are actually sacked. They should be weeded out long before they get to that point.
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The police duty isn't that hard though, american policing is hard because it's a built up of mistrust over hundred over years added with extreme criminal culture with guns.

Most policeforce in the world that doesn't have a systemic racial problem cope just fine and other country citizen mostly have a pleasant experience with cops. UK/Japan/German/Singapore/etc most cops there are doing just fine, you get occasional abuse of power but nothing to the level of US
 

Is there any other gig where you get reported for misconduct 32 times but you still keep your job and take home more than 100k? All of them look like they peaked in high school.
 
dt0mybnnr1351.jpg


Lower than dirt.

“As I was being arrested for my second day in a row during peaceful protests in support of Black Lives Matter, I decided to continue taking photos until the moment right before handcuffs were put on me. Very risky, but a necessary move to expose LAPD's entirely inexcusable use of aggressive force, especially in the moments before mass arrests of peaceful protestors.

As we were being boxed in on Broadway & 5th Street to be arrested, LAPD decided that a completely unarmed homeless man in a wheelchair that had NOTHING to do with our protest was somehow a threat. They proceeded to inappropriately shoot "non-lethal" rounds directly at his face, which is against the proper procedure for firing rubber bullets.

The last image is exceptionally heart-breaking for me as you can visibly see the homeless man writhing in pain, screaming, as he spews blood from his face moments after getting shot.

When people want to be apathetic or inactive in fighting against police brutality against black individuals, make them realize this trickles over & can affect them or someone they love too, regardless if they're black or not.

This is completely unacceptable. This injustice needs to be held accountable. Expose this.”
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entropy said:

Is there any other gig where you get reported for misconduct 32 times but you still keep your job and take home more than 100k? All of them look like they peaked in high school.
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Are American police officers really on 100k?
 
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