Protests following the killing of George Floyd

[Berbasbullet]

I know that i am arguing in good faith. I know that i am totally against any kind of racism, for me a human is just a human. No matter the color, no matter the race or religion.

But i think if it's okay to send the message that black lifes matter, it should also be okay to send the message that white lifes matter (if in good faith, obviously). Both is okay for me, as long as it is about equality and not about superiority. It's not okay for me, if only one thing is allowed though without getting branded as a racist. And i will keep saying that, even if you guys think i am stupid or even, which would make me laugh, a racist because of that.


But sometimes i have the feeling that some people just recognize racism against a certain kind of people. But there can be racism against any kind of people (i personally even experienced racism against me personally in this very forum, quite a few times, when i was new), and i don't think that racism against black people for instance is worse than racism against muslims, jews, asians and yes, even white people. That's why i have trouble if someone gets instantly (without proof) branded as a racist if he says that white lifes matter, in a time where many people say that black lifes matter.

Like it or not, that is just my honest opinion. Sorry for my bad english though.

I know that i am arguing in good faith. I know that i am totally against any kind of racism, for me a human is just a human. No matter the color, no matter the race or religion.

But i think if it's okay to send the message that black lifes matter, it should also be okay to send the message that white lifes matter (if in good faith, obviously). Both is okay for me, as long as it is about equality and not about superiority. It's not okay for me, if only one thing is allowed though without getting branded as a racist. And i will keep saying that, even if you guys think i am stupid or even, which would make me laugh, a racist because of that.


But sometimes i have the feeling that some people just recognize racism against a certain kind of people. But there can be racism against any kind of people (i personally even experienced racism against me personally in this very forum, quite a few times, when i was new), and i don't think that racism against black people for instance is worse than racism against muslims, jews, asians and yes, even white people. That's why i have trouble if someone gets instantly (without proof) branded as a racist if he says that white lifes matter, in a time where many people say that black lifes matter.

Like it or not, that is just my honest opinion. Sorry for my bad english though.

Except that flying a banner in the sky when the stadium is currently promoting BLM is clearly not in good faith now is it?

If it wasn’t for this BLM movement, would they have flown that flag? Of course not!

It is quite clearly and obviously is an attempt to undermine it.

No one is saying only black lives matter, the movement is about the equality you claim you want. If you want equality then you should be delighted by this movement, as we clearly do not have that equality as things stand.

 

[P-Nut]

White people are not subject to the institutional and systemic racism in our law protecting organisations, in our work places and in our society. White people do not face that every day, several times a day, all throughout their lives. White people simply do not face these injustices and you cannot say that poverty stricken white people face them either in the same manner or to the same degree. All Lives Matter and one day we'll hopefully be able to say that but not until Black Lives Matter too and in every respect as every other Life matters. The job to be done is to ensure that Black Lives Matter, not White Lives. To attempt to promote White Lives Matter is to attempt to deny the conscious and unconscious Racism that Black people face and endure today, now. White people do not face and endure that and do not deserve a platform in these debates and protests.

I'm so glad people like yourself can explain this in terms for people to understand. I struggle like hell to not condescend and instead end up ignoring it which solves nothing. So thank you.

 

[OutlawGER]

White people are not subject to the institutional and systemic racism in our law protecting organisations, in our work places and in our society. White people do not face that every day, several times a day, all throughout their lives. White people simply do not face these injustices and you cannot say that poverty stricken white people face them either in the same manner or to the same degree. All Lives Matter and one day we'll hopefully be able to say that but not until Black Lives Matter too and in every respect as every other Life matters. The job to be done is to ensure that Black Lives Matter, not White Lives. To attempt to promote White Lives Matter is to attempt to deny the conscious and unconscious Racism that Black people face and endure today, now. White people do not face and endure that and do not deserve a platform in these debates and protests.

Except that flying a banner in the sky when the stadium is currently promoting BLM is clearly not in good faith now is it?

If it wasn’t for this BLM movement, would they have flown that flag? Of course not!

It is quite clearly and obviously is an attempt to undermine it.

No one is saying only black lives matter, the movement is about the equality you claim you want. If you want equality then you should be delighted by this movement, as we clearly do not have that equality as things stand.

I never said, that i don't like the BLM movement. Where is this coming from? I was just contesting that the 'white life matter' flag was instantly branded as racist.

 

[Berbasbullet]

I never said, that i don't like the BLM movement. Where is this coming from? I was just contesting that the 'white life matter' flag was instantly branded as racist.

Why do you think the flag is branded as racist?

 

[OutlawGER]

Here's the guy who organised it..

Is the intention starting to become clearer?

Why should it become clearer in this picture? Because they are white?

(I don't know any of those two guys as i am not from England, so maybe i miss some context here)

 

[oates]

I never said, that i don't like the BLM movement. Where is this coming from? I was just contesting that the 'white life matter' flag was instantly branded as racist.

Put simply a bunch of Racists are attempting to divert attention from a thoroughly deserving and desperate cause (BLM) on to one which does not matter (White Lives Matter) and is not urgent nor the people suffering from.

Try and understand that on its simplest level in its purest form, that it is a Racist device at a time when no one had any reason to insist that it mattered.

 

[van der star]

I never said, that i don't like the BLM movement. Where is this coming from? I was just contesting that the 'white life matter' flag was instantly branded as racist.

That is your takeaway from those posts? You've been provided a decent explanation of the subject at hand, and yet you're focusing on the same bit that all other classic racists seem to be focused on.

 

[oates]

I'm so glad people like yourself can explain this in terms for people to understand. I struggle like hell to not condescend and instead end up ignoring it which solves nothing. So thank you.

I think this medium is a difficult one to use if you are trying to understand any sort of intent or device especially when the writer's first language is not English and simply try to answer their points. Besides there are far better speakers on here than me. We just have to speak up when we are present and see the need.

 

[Tarrou]

Why should it become clearer in this picture? Because they are white?

(I don't know any of those two guys as i am not from England, so maybe i miss some context here)

It's Tommy Robinson, who is famous for being a racist feck-wit

But you know that, I just wanted to see what you came up with

Because they are white?

 

[Berbasbullet]

It's Tommy Robinson, who is famous for being a racist feck-wit

But you know that, I just wanted to see what you came up with

Because they are white?

Give him a break he genuinely might not have known this.

 

[Member 56313]

(not parody, she's maga)

 

[Tarrou]

Give him a break he genuinely might not have known this.

Nah, it's all horse-shit. Given the previous posts it's clearly the actions of someone arguing in bad-faith

 

[oates]

Nah, it's all horse-shit. It's clearly the actions of someone arguing in bad-faith

To be fair he's now had numerous explanations from people with varying and similar points, I think to be able to judge him we need to be able to see a pattern of deliberate mis-understanding.

 

[Berbasbullet]

To be fair he's now had numerous explanations from people with varying and similar points, I think to be able to judge him we need to be able to see a pattern of deliberate mis-understanding.

Yep your last post on the matter was perfect, very simple to understand, hopefully he understands now.

 

[Tarrou]

To be fair he's now had numerous explanations from people with varying and similar points, I think to be able to judge him we need to be able to see a pattern of deliberate mis-understanding.

Maybe I'm too cynical but the first post on the matter was more than enough for me

It's impossible that this was a sincere 'white lives matter' protest or for anyone to legitimately be ignorant enough to believe that

 

[oates]

Maybe I'm too cynical but the first post on the matter was more than enough for me

It's impossible that this was a sincere 'white lives matter' protest or for anyone to legitimately be ignorant enough to believe that

I can understand that, but I think being that his first language isn't English he's not done enough yet to damn himself however for the mods to kick a racist from here they'd want him to hang himself.

 

[nimic]

I can understand that, but I think being that his first language isn't English he's not done enough yet to damn himself however for the mods to kick a racist from here they'd want him to hang himself.

This isn't the first time he's made these sorts of comments, so there's already a pattern. I think you're right that we have to try to give people the benefit of the doubt when we can, but that has limits for me.

(not parody, she's maga)

Don't you hate it when actions have consequences?

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

(not parody, she's maga)

This really is one of the key actions in any improvement. It’s actually commendable that people are taking family & friends to task for their views - people are going to have far less safe havens going forward.

 

[oates]

This isn't the first time he's made these sorts of comments, so there's already a pattern. I think you're right that we have to try to give people the benefit of the doubt when we can, but that has limits for me.

Well that's good then, they really can't seem to help themselves, it's like a prime directive or something to out themselves.

 

[Zlaatan]

It's Tommy Robinson, who is famous for being a racist feck-wit

But you know that, I just wanted to see what you came up with

Because they are white?

Give him a pass on this one. I've seen the name Tommy Robinson mentioned in various threads here over the years and I'm well aware that he's a massive racist, but I still didn't know what he looked like.

 

[Organic Potatoes]

Give him a pass on this one. I've seen the name Tommy Robinson mentioned in various threads here over the years and I'm well aware that he's a massive racist, but I still didn't know what he looked like.

I can honestly say I have no idea who Tommy Robinson is.

 

[evil_geko]

It's Tommy Robinson, who is famous for being a racist feck-wit

But you know that, I just wanted to see what you came up with

Because they are white?

What's with the OutlawGER mocking about not knowing that dude, first time I hear about this Tommy Robinson also, not everyone knows everyone.

 

[oates]

I can honestly say I have no idea who Tommy Robinson is.

What's with the mocking about not knowing that dude, first time I hear about this Tommy Robinson also, not everyone knows everyone.

He's a small, and not entirely insignificant pipsqueak who doesn't deserve the credit of someone being told they should look him up but he does play a role in all of this and the sooner that people see that he's only deserving of ridicule, the idiot whose real name is Stephen Yaxley Lennon and thought that Tommy Robinson would be some sort of improvement, the sooner he'll disappear under the stone he crawled out from under.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

I obviously get that, but what is the problem if, let's say, another movement says white lifes matter (too)? Why is that instantly branded as racism?
Isn't this whole BLM-movement about equality? So obviously both of them matter, no?


My english is unfortunately not good enough to go deeper into this topic to explain what i really mean but this banner didn't say "black lifes don't", did it?

We already know that white lives matter. This isn't in question. Black lives on the other hand....

 

[Tarrou]

Give him a pass on this one. I've seen the name Tommy Robinson mentioned in various threads here over the years and I'm well aware that he's a massive racist, but I still didn't know what he looked like.

Even if he didn't know him (which is of course possible), the "because they are white?" line is such an obvious attempt at playing dumb. Do people not see that?

And that's before you look at all the pathetic posts attempting to down-play racism. I did a cursory search and found one claiming George Floyd's death wasn't connected to racism, and another saying white players are more intelligent.

I'm tired of giving these trolls the benefit of the doubt...

 

[OutlawGER]

That is your takeaway from those posts? You've been provided a decent explanation of the subject at hand, and yet you're focusing on the same bit that all other classic racists seem to be focused on.

No, it was no take-away or anything like that. Please put things into context. The person before basically accused me of "not liking the BLM-movement, even though i am supposed to be pro-equality". My answer just suggested that i never said that i am against BLM, because i think its a good thing, i was just (from my starting point) questioning why 'white life matters' is instantly branded as racist. (this is not a new question or a takeaway, its just where i was coming from. I never critisized the BLM movement itself).

It's Tommy Robinson, who is famous for being a racist feck-wit

But you know that, I just wanted to see what you came up with

Because they are white?

How am i supposed to know? You can read in my name, my location and from my "sorry for my bad english", that i am not from England. So what am i supposed to think if you just send me a picture of a bunch of white people smiling into a camera without any further context and a comment like yours? Am i supposed to think they are racists because of their looks?

Your first sentence in this post would have been good enough to answer my starting question "why is 'white life matters' instantly branded as racist?". If i would have known that it was coming from an well known racist, then my question would have been answered far enough to my understanding and this case would have been solved far earlier.

Put simply a bunch of Racists are attempting to divert attention from a thoroughly deserving and desperate cause (BLM) on to one which does not matter (White Lives Matter) and is not urgent nor the people suffering from.

Try and understand that on its simplest level in its purest form, that it is a Racist device at a time when no one had any reason to insist that it mattered.

I get what you mean and where you are coming from with your point, but i think there actually also are some white people in the US which are suffering from racism and stereotypes.

But i understand what you are trying to say. But i have the (sometimes bad) habit to think too deep into a very complex topic.

Let us say I am a climate change activist, my symbol being the polar bear, and I proclaim that ‘polar bears matter’. If you come back with ’all mammals matter’, you’re subverting and mocking my message. You’re technically right as all mammals do matter, but it’s clear there was not an attempt at honest discourse.

It depends on the context. Wasn't it the case in the US that since the George Floyd incident many (mostly innocent) white people, many cops too, had to suffer from revenge attacks for example? I don't want to go too far into the topic now because it seems proven as a racist act (the white flag thing), so this discussion doesn't make any sense any more i guess.

This isn't the first time he's made these sorts of comments, so there's already a pattern. I think you're right that we have to try to give people the benefit of the doubt when we can, but that has limits for me.

I guess you are referring to my comments in the 'blackface' thread a few weeks ago. Yes, i was not educated on that topic and i was wondering why Griezmann was critized so hard, because it didn't seem that he had any bad intentions with his costume, and the intention behind peoples actions are what matter the most to me personally. So it's okay for me to tell the person (in this case Griezmann) that this was not cool, but completely cancel/judge him and his reputation goes waaaaay too far for me.

 

[oates]

I get what you mean and where you are coming from with your point, but i think there actually also are some white people in the US which are suffering from racism and stereotypes.

But i understand what you are trying to say. But i have the (sometimes bad) habit to think too deep into a very complex topic.

The whole topic is complex but this is a very simple abstract. I don't think I am trying to say anything, it is you who appears to be trying just a little to understand. Try to understand that any stereotype attached to some white people in America is not something that they are suffering from, not in the context that Black Peoples have suffered torture, kidnap, forced labour, murder and all manner of injustice from centuries ago to the present day.

On balance which People do you feel need the most urgent and deserving of attention and remedy?

 

[Ludens the Red]

To those giving the benefit of doubt to @OutlawGER
It’s all nonsense. His posts are cnuty posts. He knows what he’s doing and his motive is clear.

His Mo is to come into threads like these and basically question how something can be seen as racist, usually when the discussion is on black people. He deliberately tries to undermine it by playing devils advocate. When questioned he then resorts to playing dumb and playing the “my English isn’t good card”... this is quickly followed up by the “I believe everyone is equal” card which people with underlying, covert racism use to pretend that they aren’t racist. But the saying goes ‘fool me once but you can’t then fool me five more times’.

Anyway here are a selection of what I would class as “questionable posts”.
But I’m sure it’s just one big misunderstanding. No matter how many times people explain it to him.

There is nothing to do against. Even if you nuke their countries (which would be even more stupid) its by far too late. They live among us like parasites. Their plans from years, maybe decades ago, are now starting to 'pay off'.

I fear it will only become worse.

During the London terrorist incident, where he had magically decided the suspects were foreign born before confirmed. Let’s nuke the parasites

I have a weird question, some may not even like it.

And don't get me wrong, the cop is an arsehole and deserves the hardest punishment for what he did. And my feelings are with Floyd and his family.

But why is this about racism? Is it known that the cop is a racist? Why is it different, if a white person kills a black person to if a black kills a black or a white kills a white? Shouldn't we be ahead of this in time?

Would there be a debate like this if a black cop kills a white? If the cop had no racial intends (but other assholerys), wouldn't it be racism against white people to accuse them of racism like that in general (not talking about the cop as an idividual, but about all white people in US)?


Sorry, to me stuff like this is always hard to understand, because for me every human is just a human, no matter the race or color. But i witnessed many times that a black killed a white and never a racism debate comes up (at least not to this extent), while the world goes crazy if the opposite thing happens. I obviously know about the past of black people in US, but times have changed drastically compared to the last centuries. However, unfortunately human beings will keep killing each other in future, no matter where they are coming from, so topics like this are always likely to come up, or not?

In a topic like this i just wonder what would happen, if for example a stupid and criminal german would kill a jew in Germany. Would the whole country have to suffer because of one idiot? It basically shows to me, how fragile this world and its peace really is.

incredibly he’s done this twice in this thread.

Well even if so, what's the problem? Black players are far more talented if it comes to physicallity, i think no one can deny that. They are usually faster, bigger and stronger. And it seems that white players are usually more intelligent. So what? In both cases there are of course exceptions, but have you seen many black players play like Iniesta, Xavi, Modric, Zidane, Gerrard, Lampard, Ballack, Schweinsteiger, Kroos, etc.? I can't even name one black 'maestro' tbh. Maybe we could count Ronaldinho into this as the exception though.


Why is it racism if we say white players are more intelligent than black players, but it isn't racism if we say black players are physically more gifted (not only in sports btw...) than white players? It reminds me of german schools, when turkish kids say to german kids "you damn german!" and the german kid responds "you damn turk!", only the german kid is getting accused of racism. And i think that's bs.

In the “black players are lazy stereotype”.

#freedom of speech and opinion to everyone. Even to celebritys.

This world needs to stop to attack, or even destroy, people for their opinions to such an extend, that people are afraid (of their jobs etc) to be honest in public. This develepment is even worse than homophobia, racism etc.

Indeed, attacking people for having shite opinions is now worse than homophobia and racism.
People with opinions lives matter!

 

[OutlawGER]

The whole topic is complex but this is a very simple abstract. I don't think I am trying to say anything, it is you who appears to be trying just a little to understand. Try to understand that any stereotype attached to some white people in America is not something that they are suffering from, not in the context that Black Peoples have suffered torture, kidnap, forced labour, murder and all manner of injustice from centuries ago to the present day.

On balance which People do you feel need the most urgent and deserving of attention and remedy?

Well as i said, for me every human is just the same: A human, no matter the color, no matter the race or religion. Everyone who suffers from racism needs help to get rid of it as far as possible. But just like rapists, murderers, pedophiles, etc. it will always be out there, because there will always be a certain amount of bad people in this world, unfortunately. And there is not much we can do against it.

But if i have to make a decision in case of remedy, it would certainly be the gypsies. A minority which suffers from racism and stigmatism and it seems to this day that no one cares.

 

[Zlaatan]

Even if he didn't know him (which is of course possible), the "because they are white?" line is such an obvious attempt at playing dumb. Do people not see that?

And that's before you look at all the pathetic posts attempting to down-play racism. I did a cursory search and found one claiming George Floyd's death wasn't connected to racism, and another saying white players are more intelligent.

I'm tired of giving these trolls the benefit of the doubt...

No disagreement there and it seems like playing dumb is his game plan with all of this, which is why I said give him a pass on 'this one'. Everyone who hasn't been living under a rock will know that flying that banner over the arena was done with racist intentions, and if he has a history of posts like you claim then it becomes even more clear what he's doing.

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

@Leroy The Red , I applaud you for that last post.

 

[OutlawGER]

[...]

Yeah, its easy to put things out of context. Best example the London terrorists thing. I never suggested anyone should be nuked, i actually replied to someone suggesting exactly that and even said "that would be even more stupid", but yeah just ignore that to make a point.

And yeah, i would call a legit terrorist, who kills innocent people, a parasite. I am sorry if that is offending you. Also this post was from a time, (2015? 2016?) where this kind of attacks were really common in Europe (Paris, Berlin, London, etc.), mostly by ISIS terrorists which were living in Europe.

 

[FireballXL5]

And then they start getting bolshie

 

[oates]

Well as i said, for me every human is just the same: A human, no matter the color, no matter the race or religion. Everyone who suffers from racism needs help to get rid of it as far as possible. But just like rapists, murderers, pedophiles, etc. it will always be out there, because there will always be a certain amount of bad people in this world, unfortunately. And there is not much we can do against it.

But if i have to make a decision in case of remedy, it would certainly be the gypsies. A minority which suffers from racism and stigmatism and it seems to this day that no one cares.

Your English is definitely not as bad as you want to make out.

I don't think you are helping yourself.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

But if i have to make a decision in case of remedy, it would certainly be the gypsies. A minority which suffers from racism and stigmatism and it seems to this day that no one cares.

You can start by not calling them that.

 

[Rado_N]

@OutlawGER do you genuinely think that there is a wide ranging issue that means people need to be convinced that white lives matter?

Or does it seem more likely that the people banging on about “all lives matter” or “white lives matter” are only doing so in an attempt to dismiss the BLM movement?

White people do not struggle with deep rooted systemic racism on a day to day basis. Nobody needs to have it pointed out to them that white people also matter.

Sadly the same cannot be said for black people and other minorities. Their lives have been historically undervalued and they have to handle racism in a variety of forms every day.

It’s been posted many times by now but this captures it well:



Anyone making the effort to fly a “white lives matter” banner at the moment is unequivocally a racist.

 

[MrMarcello]

A viral video shows a woman holding a Confederate flag at a Black Lives Matter protest in Missouri and telling demonstrators, “I will teach my grandkids to hate you all.” She then turned around, stuck up her fist and said, “KKK belief.”

https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-brie...woman-holding-confederate-flag-at-blm-protest

The kids in the background... brainwashed.

Never heard of it but the rally was held at a Dixie Outfitters. Their website is something else. They claim the war was over tariffs.

https://dixieoutfitters.com/

2013 article about https://www.salon.com/2013/09/11/dixie_outfitters_is_still_fighting_the_civil_war/

 

[Ludens the Red]

Yeah, its easy to put things out of context. Best example the London terrorists thing. I never suggested anyone should be nuked, i actually replied to someone suggesting exactly that and even said "that would be even more stupid", but yeah just ignore that to make a point.

And yeah, i would call a legit terrorist, who kills innocent people, a parasite. I am sorry if that is offending you. Also this post was from a time, (2015? 2016?) where this kind of attacks were really common in Europe (Paris, Berlin, London, etc.), mostly by ISIS terrorists which were living in Europe.

I think you try to ‘PG’ some of the things you say in order to not appear obvious. Again looking through your posts this particular tactic comes in different forms.

 

[Penna]

@OutlawGER, I think you are being disingenuous here. I find it hard to believe that you really can't grasp what people are trying to say to you.

 

[Ludens the Red]

Your English is definitely not as bad as you want to make out.

I don't think you are helping yourself.

His English is better than some of the actual English people on this board.