You can already see what will happen Drakeford will be first and say Wales will not allow household mixing, he doesn't give a shit about who he upsets. Sturgeon will follow suit, she appears to have the public confidence behind her so won't bat an eyelid. Then that'll make Johnson wobble and bluster when he sees the other nations backtracking.
SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)
- Thread starter Don't Kill Bill
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
This is the biggest issue imo. There’s literally no enforcement. It’s embarrassing.
Agreed that all experts have agreed on this, all the experts are also saying allowing this relaxing of the rules over Xmas is a terrible mistake. Every single person in the country knows it now, is it going to stop the vast majority from having fairly large family Christmas's? No. So you can't just go well it the government's fault. They should have done this, they should have done that, yes they should have but that doesn't devoid every individual who has an extended family Christmas a certain proportion of the blame for what pretty much every expert is saying is going to be a disaster.
But the whole idea that we need to get the levels lower so we can see each other at Christmas is crazy to start with, the goal shouldn't be Christmas the goal should be the long term health and lively hoods of the population. If Christmas gets in the way of that then you do what Germany is doing and say sorry you're locked down over Xmas.
The simple problem is people want a Christmas as near as possible to normal and don't want to accept any blame at all for the consequences of that. We as a country are been told by pretty much every expert going that what is about to happen over xmas is going to cost lives. We as a country aren't prepared to not be allowed to see our families over xmas, so we as a country have to accept the blame for the consequences, not just point fingers at other people.
What do you expect though? Seriously? Police to be knocking on every door on Xmas day to check how many people are in the house?
Yeah agreed, whatever the government says is or isn't allowed is probably going to make minimal difference to how people act without consequences to those actions.
Actually, I've noticed a bit of a change amongst older family, friends and neighbours since the vaccine became available. I'd summarise it as, "we're going to have a bloody good party at Easter instead."
The idea of a way out and some kind of timeline has helped. The ones who were hesitating, are now talking about postponing it, "until we can do it properly."
The ones who weren't hesitating wouldn't listen to the rules anyway - perhaps rightly in the case of some who know it's likely to be their last Christmas. But also in the case of those where it just solidifies the reality that they're mixing anyway - like grandparents in child care loops, and others who've stretched the "bubble" concept way beyond the guidelines.
The idea of a way out and some kind of timeline has helped. The ones who were hesitating, are now talking about postponing it, "until we can do it properly."
The ones who weren't hesitating wouldn't listen to the rules anyway - perhaps rightly in the case of some who know it's likely to be their last Christmas. But also in the case of those where it just solidifies the reality that they're mixing anyway - like grandparents in child care loops, and others who've stretched the "bubble" concept way beyond the guidelines.
There's a slight problem with your Germany comparison: the reason they're locking down over Christmas is because their population wanted to live a life as close to normal as possible in the build-up to it, rising cases didn't act as enough of a signal, and things started to get out of control. Otherwise they were going to have a semi-normal Christmas.
They had a 7-day average of 70 deaths per day on 1st November, 177 on the 16th November, 342 on 1st December and it reached 504 yesterday. The broke their daily death total by a huge margin at the same time. Germany had better systems in place to prevent this from happening, and better infrastructure to deal with it if it does. They have now said that system has been breached: there are too many people to reliably trace the contacts of those infected.
It is not a UK problem. It is human nature to want to live "normally". In fact I'm pretty sure it's universal in all animals, maybe all organisms, to live habitually (or the biological equivalent). That is not a whimsical notion that you can just throw away, it's something people need to fight against deep within themselves to comply to these unnatural rules that don't fit with our biology or psychology. The fact that some people find it harder to cut off all social and physical ties and submit to higher powers is not evidence of weakness.
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It's just hit me what is gonna begin in just over a week and it's heart breaking.
Yes but as the cases are rising and this system is broke they are taking action and locking down over xmas. Our cases are on a similar level, our system is for handling the pandemic is a mess, our population has shown to be less capable of minimising contact. Yet we are preparing to relax the rules, while they prepare to tighten them.
In no way am i saying its easy, but just because something is hard doesn't mean you are devoid of any blame. Take the government, is managing this pandemic were you have to balance saving peoples lives, with protecting peoples livelihoods, while coping with a population that and media that seem to be doing 180 every couple of days, you lock us down we complain, you don't lock us down we complain... That's really hard to handle, does that mean we should give the government a pass and say don't worry about the fact you have made a mess of it all? Absolutely not!
It's the same with people, thiers people I love I haven't seen in months, thiers activities i want to do that I just don't get to at the moment. It's hard! But if i suddenly go ow sod it this is hard i want to be allowed to see people and do more things, and I contribute towards a spread of the virus in some way then the fact i'm finding it hard doesn't mean i should not be accountable for my actions, it doesn't just give me the right to stand and blame everyone and everything else and not take any responsibility for myself.
I've made my Xmas plans based on the 5 day relaxation - invites sorted, food bought etc. Going to avoid watching any news etc now as it’s depressing.
Well I’m in Poland and I’m in minority of people who believe the virus really exists. We had 32k excess deaths last month yet vast majority of our population think it’s a much, much milder flu and not a threat to anybody.
I think if there'd been more enforcement in public areas months ago, people would understand that it's important to stay as safe as possible. Obviously there won't be any enforcement in people's houses (unless they're clearly having a loud and packed party), so once again it depends on whether folk are self-disciplined or not.
I think it's literally just the government trying to put the blame on the public. As usual, relying on common sense and advising, then turning around and saying "I told you so" when shit hits the fan. It's just deflection from a spineless government.
Doesn't have to be that strict. A valid solution would be to stop people travelling through different regions (unless there was a valid reason like work, medical needs etc.), which is what they are currently doing in Italy. Put police on borders of regions, and that way you're going to stop the spread from different tiered areas, which is the main method of the virus spread at the moment.
We could all take control and police it ourselves and grass people up, proper vigilante like
At the moment the Italian government has said we can't leave our municipalities at all on 25/26 December and 1January. This is particularly hard for people in very small municipalities, who may have family living very close by but just outside the border of their village.
Yes, I was about to state that too, but wasn't 100% sure on the details, so left it out.
Puts it in perspective, how ridiculous the UK population has handled such light restrictions, compared to the rest of Europe...
I certainly wouldn’t use the Italian approach/experience as a reason to look down on the UK. Or any other country at all really.
EDIT: Not having a go at the Italian people. Or the Italian government. I have no idea who is most to blame for what’s happened. But their pandemic experience has been an absolute disaster, from start to finish.
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I would that's for sure if I saw people openly flouting the rules and I usually hate snitches. Christmas will be hard for everyone, and considerate people who take their social responsibilities seriously are all having to make difficult family choices this year so it would p*ss me off seeing people just selfishly doing as they please.
The scientific/technical committee that advises the Italian government said yesterday they want stricter restrictions over the whole Christmas period, which may well happen. They think Italian yellow zones (lowest risk) should be under stricter restrictions.
We could debate this til the cows come home. At the end of the day a percentage of the population will do what they want just as they have always done throughout their lives. For the rest of us that want to not put at risk our families health, we will do what we need to do in the hope of better days to come. We shouldn’t really need bungling governments to tell us what we should do to keep our families safe. Use your own common sense
Enforcement of what and where though? In public areas, predominantly outside, the science is saying that covid is less of a risk compared to indoors.
A nice idea, but in reality it's completely not feasible given the current resources of the police force.
The problem is that ‘common sense’ is not that common.
The Netherlands has only just gone into a hard lockdown until January too. Germany locked down until the 20th etc. I don't think all these countries are wrong and we're right.
When the virus was still fresh in March, people kept saying Italy is awful with the numbers and we'll be okay because people are old, smoke, kiss each other to greet etc. then 3-4 weeks later we were worse than them.
But as said above, I think everyone will just make their own rules. I'm not following the government rules, but in the other direction, I've just been making sure not to eat out anywhere or go to any bars since March, and haven't been meeting anyone apart from the occasional chat outdoors since September.
The four nations of the UK are going to have the same rules over Xmas right? Have to be I guess given that so many travel between them for Xmas.
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Wales will go into Tier 4 on 28/12/20 after the relaxation of rules for Xmas.
Same will happen in England, but a week or so later I predict
Same will happen in England, but a week or so later I predict
I would say the Italians have been as good at bringing things back under control as they have been bad (or unlucky back in February) at letting it get out of control in the first place. As have most of the major European countries.
One certain and noticeable thing is how much longer the UK takes to reduce numbers after each wave. That's down to government policy and people's behaviour.
It’s almost a philosophical difference. Brutally harsh lockdowns when deaths per capita hit the red zone, or a less stringent regional lockdown when deaths are not quite bad. The former gets on top of numbers more quickly (because it has to) The latter is slightly kinder to businesses (and, arguably, the population as a whole)
It’s hard to see why we would put Italy on a pedestal above the Uk when they seem to have endured a higher death rate (in both waves) and more socially/economically disruptive measures to try and control the spread of the virus.
We should revisit this in January, though. Because that’s when the UK approach could look much worse.
How much Govt assistance is there for wage earners and business with the Govt mandated lockdowns in the UK?
In Wales they’re saying that the two / three household mixing over Xmas is just advice now, not law.
Will anybody follow WHO advice and wear masks when meeting family and spending time outdoors?
I know their advice is aimed at the whole world so the latter can be done as it's summer in the southern hemisphere. However, how many people are going to spend the day wearing masks when they are eating and drinking together?
Moreover, how many people in the northern hemisphere are going to spend extended periods outside?
It all seems idealistic from the WHO, I doubt even it's employees will follow this advice
I know their advice is aimed at the whole world so the latter can be done as it's summer in the southern hemisphere. However, how many people are going to spend the day wearing masks when they are eating and drinking together?
Moreover, how many people in the northern hemisphere are going to spend extended periods outside?
It all seems idealistic from the WHO, I doubt even it's employees will follow this advice
Most people in Wales just carry on as normal anyway .
You just know Wales will be full of holiday homer’s over Xmas
If your from London there is an 80% furlough scheme in place.
If your from Manchester there is a 66% furlough scheme in place.
To be fair, there has been more government support than i expected as a whole. Probably to much. People that live off the state are in a much better place now than they were before covid, free school meals outside school terms, xmas bonus' and so on.
The working Man is a sucker!
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Apart from in areas of the south of Italy during this second wave, I think there's been pretty good buy-in from the public. Parts of the south get a pass as far as I'm concerned, because there's nowhere in the UK that would compare in terms of social and economic deprivation - it's real grinding poverty exploited by organised crime.
We've had a "masks outside your house" rule across the country for months and months now, and there's still 100% compliance around where we live.
@11101 will have a perspective from the big city which may be different, but in a country with an ageing population and massive regional socio-economic diversity, I think Italy's done quite well.
As per my edit, I’m not trying to point fingers. I’m just saying that the Uk shouldn’t be considered a failure in comparison to Italy when - using all available objective measures - it’s dealt with this pandemic better than Italy has. So far. And I’m saying this as someone who thinks the UK could and should have done better than they did.
Maybe 1 of Boris's even more stupid press conferences and that's saying something!
The idea of appealing to peoples personal responsibility is hilarious, its very clear that most people have no personal responsibility if something goes wrong people blame other people that's how it works.
And how can they ask other people to take personal responsibility even they can't even admit they made a mistake setting this Christmas bubble to start with.
The idea of appealing to peoples personal responsibility is hilarious, its very clear that most people have no personal responsibility if something goes wrong people blame other people that's how it works.
And how can they ask other people to take personal responsibility even they can't even admit they made a mistake setting this Christmas bubble to start with.
I was thinking exactly the same. I just wonder if someone has maybe asked the virus if it will appeal to its own personal responsibility and relax for 5 days for us? People will make the most of these 5 days and we'll no doubt see the results in a few weeks.
When are they announcing the latest tiers? Thought it was supposed to be today?