SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)

Bollocks.

5 cases out in the community on NSW. 1 bus driver who transported airline crew and 4 on the Northern Beaches possibly related to each other but of unknown source so far. Hopefully either track and trace works ASAP or we put the Northern Beaches into full lockdown for a week (doubt they will so close to Christmas). It has been great not having to wear a mask but I'll be wearing one again from today.
 
3500 deaths in US today and almost 250,000 infected...and after the multiplier effect on cases after christmas it can go well over 5k deaths a day
 
Italy has tightened the rules for the Christmas and New Year period. From 24th-27th December inclusive and 31st Dec-3rd Jan there will be a complete lockdown with every region classed as "red", which means everything's closed and you can't leave your comune of residence except for work or emergencies (and you have to self-certificate to that end). The 10pm curfew that we've had for some time now remains in place regardless.

This is an extension of the original plans to just have a nationwide red zone on the actual public holidays. It's a severe restriction, but it makes sense to me.
 
Penna said:
This is an extension of the original plans to just have a nationwide red zone on the actual public holidays. It's a severe restriction, but it makes sense to me.
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Well that’s becoz forrinners don’t luv Christmas and the baby Jesus like we do here. Obviously.

Italy has blown me away. Two of my closest friends are from Bari & Florence. They live in London.

They widely accepted that a mad, disorganised government would struggle to get people in line. Blown away that the country has complied as well as it has. Also impressed that the government has actually led pretty effectively.
 
UnrelatedPsuedo said:
Well that’s becoz forrinners don’t luv Christmas and the baby Jesus like we do here. Obviously.

Italy has blown me away. Two of my closest friends are from Bari & Florence. They live in London.

They widely accepted that a mad, disorganised government would struggle to get people in line. Blown away that the country has complied as well as it has. Also impressed that the government has actually led pretty effectively.
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I’m starting to get the impression that the one and only thing the Italian government has done well this pandemic is fooling everyone into thinking they’re doing a great job. I know I’m getting repetitive here but I find it so weird to keep reading praise for the Italian handling of the pandemic when they’ve managed to combine some of the most draconic forced social distancing measures in Europe with the highest death rate. In the first and second wave. Something doesn’t add up!
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I’m starting to get the impression that the one and only thing the Italian government has done well this pandemic is fooling everyone into thinking they’re doing a great job. I know I’m getting repetitive here but I find it so weird to keep reading praise for the Italian handling of the pandemic when they’ve managed to combine some of the most draconic forced social distancing measures in Europe with the highest death rate. In the first and second wave. Something doesn’t add up!
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Over 36,000 deaths have been in the over-80s, over 11,000 of those in the over-90s. We have an older population than the UK. The second wave has hit the south disproportionately, and that part of the country has a bucketload of problems without Covid.

Of course, that doesn't account for all of it but we lost out in the first wave by being the first European country to be hit. The UK had more time to react, so there's grounds to say the UK figures are far worse than they should be.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I’m starting to get the impression that the one and only thing the Italian government has done well this pandemic is fooling everyone into thinking they’re doing a great job. I know I’m getting repetitive here but I find it so weird to keep reading praise for the Italian handling of the pandemic when they’ve managed to combine some of the most draconic forced social distancing measures in Europe with the highest death rate. In the first and second wave. Something doesn’t add up!
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Maybe there's a bee or two caught in your cap PM. Italy and the UK are roughly on a par, even terms total population, total deaths but as Penna says a much higher age rate. Italy took the brunt of original infections before more sophisticated treatments were known and the North hasn't always behaved just so with masks and social distancing, back in May and June the Milanese and Genoese couldn't live without their beach trips apparently. The South has worse poverty than any in the UK and as an agrarian economy workers who couldn't survive without working, and the country couldn't starve. So yes, maybe marginally worse from the beginning but the behaviour is better now I would have thought. Draconian means someone else's common sense I guess.
 
Penna said:
Over 36,000 deaths have been in the over-80s, over 11,000 of those in the over-90s. We have an older population than the UK. The second wave has hit the south disproportionately, and that part of the country has a bucketload of problems without Covid.

Of course, that doesn't account for all of it but we lost out in the first wave by being the first European country to be hit. The UK had more time to react, so there's grounds to say the UK figures are far worse than they should be.
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There’s actually not much difference between the average age in Italy vs UK and even if we ignore the first wave completely, Italy is doing worse - in terms of covid deaths - than the UK right now and has been for some time. Which makes you wonder how much of their terrible experience during the first wave was about being unprepared and how much was down to whatever factors are causing the same scenario to happen all over again. And let’s not pretend that the UK doesn’t have its own issues of high density population in some of the most deprived areas in the country.

Anyway. Covid as a competitive sport is slightly pathetic and I don’t like the way my inner argumentative twat keeps getting flushed out in discussions like this. I just find it odd the way Italy keeps getting praise in this thread, while the UK keeps getting crucified. From the outside looking in, both countries are standing out as having done particularly badly, throughout this pandemic. Whether that’s through bad government, poor implementation of government guidance by the citizens, or just bad luck is hard to know. I don’t think we ever will know for certain.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I’m starting to get the impression that the one and only thing the Italian government has done well this pandemic is fooling everyone into thinking they’re doing a great job. I know I’m getting repetitive here but I find it so weird to keep reading praise for the Italian handling of the pandemic when they’ve managed to combine some of the most draconic forced social distancing measures in Europe with the highest death rate. In the first and second wave. Something doesn’t add up!
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Totally agree. Europe as a whole has just accepted and normalised failure for some reason. Great countries are the likes of Taiwan, Vietnam and NZ. Then there are good countries like Japan, Uruguay and maybe Norway (probably just average not good). Almost all of Europe has totally failed, Italy being one of the worst.
 
massi83 said:
Totally agree. Europe as a whole has just accepted and normalised failure for some reason. Great countries are the likes of Taiwan, Vietnam and NZ. Then there are good countries like Japan, Uruguay and maybe Norway (probably just average not good). Almost all of Europe has totally failed, Italy being one of the worst.
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Uruguay’s a new one to me. What’s been the secret of their success?
 
Stick your tier 3 up your ass you absolute cretins. feck off.

If London hadn’t gone into tier 3 we’d have come into tier 2. Typical fecking horrible elitist Tory cnuts. feck off
 
Penna said:
Over 36,000 deaths have been in the over-80s, over 11,000 of those in the over-90s. We have an older population than the UK. The second wave has hit the south disproportionately, and that part of the country has a bucketload of problems without Covid.

Of course, that doesn't account for all of it but we lost out in the first wave by being the first European country to be hit. The UK had more time to react, so there's grounds to say the UK figures are far worse than they should be.
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That's pretty similar to the UK - 29,000 in +85s and 23,000 in 75-84. And there's also strong link between deprivation and numbers of deaths in the UK. So I don't see that there's anything unique about the Italian situation.

I have to agree with Pogue here - I don't see that Italy have much to be proud of.
 
Schmeichel's Cartwheel said:
Stick your tier 3 up your ass you absolute cretins. feck off.

If London hadn’t gone into tier 3 we’d have come into tier 2. Typical fecking horrible elitist Tory cnuts. feck off
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Agreed. Makes no odds to me anymore. Im doing what i want. Ill still wear a mask and all that jazz. But i will be visiting family without a second thought from now on. Tamesides rate of infection is one of the lowest in GM. Absolutley no reason for me to be a prisoner in my own home anymore.

To be honest, i live a very dull life. There is not a lot of difference between my normal life and tier 3 life. I just want to see family again. and i will be doing.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Uruguay’s a new one to me. What’s been the secret of their success?
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Normal stuff. Test and trace, closing borders (arg and bra are among worst neighbours to have), not accepting failure. Although seems like their cases are rising fast this month, hadn't checked for a while. But still only about 100 death with population of 3.5m.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I’m starting to get the impression that the one and only thing the Italian government has done well this pandemic is fooling everyone into thinking they’re doing a great job. I know I’m getting repetitive here but I find it so weird to keep reading praise for the Italian handling of the pandemic when they’ve managed to combine some of the most draconic forced social distancing measures in Europe with the highest death rate. In the first and second wave. Something doesn’t add up!
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No, it’s not that. I’m not praising the response.

I’m acknowledging the sheer shock factor over a truly disjointed government getting a wild populace singing from the same song sheet.

I love Italy. People, culture, country. Naples is one of my favourite places on the planet.

But I couldn’t possibly see that country getting it together the way it has. The togetherness. Not really talking to the Death toll.
 
lynchie said:
That's pretty similar to the UK - 29,000 in +85s and 23,000 in 75-84. And there's also strong link between deprivation and numbers of deaths in the UK. So I don't see that there's anything unique about the Italian situation.

I have to agree with Pogue here - I don't see that Italy have much to be proud of.
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Well, we spent a month back in the UK in September. It was as if the pandemic had never happened, which made me quite fearful. I feel much safer here and I have more confidence in the Italian government than I do in Johnson and his pals.
 
Jacko21 said:
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Actually quite surprised that Boris hasn’t used Manchester as a political pawn again.

“Tiers work. Manchester was in 3, it’s now in 2 for two weeks”

Seems like an easy win. cnuty to the extreme but that’s what these people do.
 
massi83 said:
Totally agree. Europe as a whole has just accepted and normalised failure for some reason. Great countries are the likes of Taiwan, Vietnam and NZ. Then there are good countries like Japan, Uruguay and maybe Norway (probably just average not good). Almost all of Europe has totally failed, Italy being one of the worst.
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I seem to remember reading something along the lines of Japan doing better in spite of the Government and am I correct that Japan have only tested in clusters?
 
Pogue Mahone said:
There’s actually not much difference between the average age in Italy vs UK and even if we ignore the first wave completely, Italy is doing worse - in terms of covid deaths - than the UK right now and has been for some time. Which makes you wonder how much of their terrible experience during the first wave was about being unprepared and how much was down to whatever factors are causing the same scenario to happen all over again. And let’s not pretend that the UK doesn’t have its own issues of high density population in some of the most deprived areas in the country.

Anyway. Covid as a competitive sport is slightly pathetic and I don’t like the way my inner argumentative twat keeps getting flushed out in discussions like this. I just find it odd the way Italy keeps getting praise in this thread, while the UK keeps getting crucified. From the outside looking in, both countries are standing out as having done particularly badly, throughout this pandemic. Whether that’s through bad government, poor implementation of government guidance by the citizens, or just bad luck is hard to know. I don’t think we ever will know for certain.
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That's quite wrong.

Median age is significantly higher, Italy has the highest in Europe whilst only Luxembourg, Iceland and Cyprus have a lower median than the UK.

23% of Italians are over 65, again the highest in Europe, compared to 18% in the UK, which is again among the lowest. The same holds true for over 80s.

Italy will not come out of this covered in glory, but thats quite different to the almost purposeful sabotage going on in the UK.
 
Penna said:
Well, we spent a month back in the UK in September. It was as if the pandemic had never happened, which made me quite fearful. I feel much safer here and I have more confidence in the Italian government than I do in Johnson and his pals.
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Quite right Penna.

People trot out shite like “The additional cost of the pandemic and lockdowns... depression... loneliness... etc”

Then COMPLETELY IGNORE the key principle that is; The UK is a more divided Nation this December than last. Italy is a more unified nation.

Instilling a sense of collective good is healthy for a nation. My friends speak constantly of how they’ve never seen Italy like this. They’ve been back twice this year. They can’t get back for Christmas but they get it. They’re not losing their minds the way British people do over the idea they may miss Christmas.

The UK had that collective spirit for maybe a month of the first faux-lockdown. Community spirit. Neighbours acquainting themselves. Then we set fire to it and started blaming “the other side” for everything again. This country is eating itself alive.

Comparing death tolls is a crass generalisation.
 
SiRed said:
Agreed. Makes no odds to me anymore. Im doing what i want. Ill still wear a mask and all that jazz. But i will be visiting family without a second thought from now on. Tamesides rate of infection is one of the lowest in GM. Absolutley no reason for me to be a prisoner in my own home anymore.

To be honest, i live a very dull life. There is not a lot of difference between my normal life and tier 3 life. I just want to see family again. and i will be doing.
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This is why it's still in Tier 3, from a Tameside MP as well - https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...anchesters-hospitals-struggling-keep-19455621

Case rate falls can't be looked at in isolation as an answer to the current tier level.
 
UnrelatedPsuedo said:
Quite right Penna.

People trot out shite like “The additional cost of the pandemic and lockdowns... depression... loneliness... etc”

Then COMPLETELY IGNORE the key principle that is; The UK is a more divided Nation this December than last. Italy is a more unified nation.

Instilling a sense of collective good is healthy for a nation. My friends speak constantly of how they’ve never seen Italy like this. They’ve been back twice this year. They can’t get back for Christmas but they get it. They’re not losing their minds the way British people do over the idea they may miss Christmas.

The UK had that collective spirit for maybe a month of the first faux-lockdown. Community spirit. Neighbours acquainting themselves. Then we set fire to it and started blaming “the other side” for everything again. This country is eating itself alive.

Comparing death tolls is a crass generalisation.
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Quick question, no idea on stats but do you have a feeling that the devolved govts in the UK are doing a better job than England?
 
oates said:
Quick question, no idea on stats but do you have a feeling that the devolved govts in the UK are doing a better job than England?
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Without question.

I have family in Wales and my best friend relocated from London to family in Inverness in July so I’ve got half an eye on both Those two.

Nobody expects politicians in this environment to get everything right. Bad decisions lead to people dying. It’s ridiculous to pretend this is easy.

But if you want to make unpopular decisions you need to be Transparent, Honest, Explain your reasoning, and be humble enough to admit mistakes. Does any of that sound like Westminster Tories? Even one of them?

I know nothing about Ireland. But the Welsh and Scottish first ministers have Led. It’s that simple.
 
UnrelatedPsuedo said:
Without question.

I have family in Wales and my best friend relocated from London to family in Inverness in July so I’ve got half an eye on both Those two.

Nobody expects politicians in this environment to get everything right. Bad decisions lead to people dying. It’s ridiculous to pretend this is easy.

But if you want to make unpopular decisions you need to be Transparent, Honest, Explain your reasoning, and be humble enough to admit mistakes. Does any of that sound like Westminster Tories? Even one of them?

I know nothing about Ireland. But the Welsh and Scottish first ministers have Led. It’s that simple.
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There may be a better community spirit in N Ireland, Wales and Scotland but they don’t seem to be doing any better than England. Northern Ireland has been a fecking disaster and is seriously in the shit right now. And you only imagine the crap Boris et al would be getting if this happened in England.

The whole of Europe has been a train wreck, with almost nobody coming out looking well. Goes without saying that the faffing of BoJo has made a bad situation worse but it’s incredibly difficult to come up with a country anywhere nearby that has done any better. Arguably (the republic of) Ireland but I think our reckoning is due in January, judging by the crowd scenes in town these last couple of weeks.
 
oates said:
I seem to remember reading something along the lines of Japan doing better in spite of the Government and am I correct that Japan have only tested in clusters?
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Yes. But it is harder to differentiate between governments actions and that of the people. So I rather look at it as society as a whole.
 
I'm trying to imagine what it will be like in two or three months time. Hordes of vaccinated over-65s swanning around freely won't encourage the still-vulnerable to follow any rules themselves, there are plenty that don't as it is. Maybe the virus will just spread freely in the younger population for a while, albeit causing fewer deaths of course. People protecting themselves as best they can, or not, as they choose. Then again I'm no nostrodamus.
UnrelatedPsuedo said:
Quite right Penna.

People trot out shite like “The additional cost of the pandemic and lockdowns... depression... loneliness... etc”

Then COMPLETELY IGNORE the key principle that is; The UK is a more divided Nation this December than last. Italy is a more unified nation.

Instilling a sense of collective good is healthy for a nation. My friends speak constantly of how they’ve never seen Italy like this. They’ve been back twice this year. They can’t get back for Christmas but they get it. They’re not losing their minds the way British people do over the idea they may miss Christmas.

The UK had that collective spirit for maybe a month of the first faux-lockdown. Community spirit. Neighbours acquainting themselves. Then we set fire to it and started blaming “the other side” for everything again. This country is eating itself alive.

Comparing death tolls is a crass generalisation.
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You're right that there was a change after about a month, and I don't care how simplistic it sounds but the biggest reason for that was the Cummings incident. Even now I hear it mentioned quite often. It immediately became one rule for us and one rule for them, the privileged. It could have been so different had Johnson sacked him and the police fined him a few quid.
 
massi83 said:
Yes. But it is harder to differentiate between governments actions and that of the people. So I rather look at it as society as a whole.
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Yeah, very useful.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
There may be a better community spirit in N Ireland, Wales and Scotland but they don’t seem to be doing any better than England. Northern Ireland has been a fecking disaster and is seriously in the shit right now. And you only imagine the crap Boris et al would be getting if this happened in England.

The whole of Europe has been a train wreck, with almost nobody coming out looking well. Goes without saying that the faffing of BoJo has made a bad situation worse but it’s incredibly difficult to come up with a country anywhere nearby that has done any better. Arguably (the republic of) Ireland but I think our reckoning is due in January, judging by the crowd scenes in town these last couple of weeks.
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It depends who you ask.

The people in the south of Italy certainly don't think this has been a shining moment of national unity. The same people that talk about this beautiful moment of unity and collective spirit in Italy also say that the south might as well be considered a different country. It's the very definition of a divided nation. We are just hearing from the part of the nation that isn't feeling the brunt of it right now, and isn't feeling the worst effects.

Same in NI. My mum and her wider family are talking about how this is a moment to cherish the community spirit. They are tucked away in their warm homes keeping safe and just imagining a brighter future, because what else can you do. Meanwhile my cousin's in Antrim hospital despairing at the mess to deal with while still seeing people walking around without masks in shops. We like to hear stories about where the grass is greener and generalise, because the idea that this level of pain and distrust is commonplace is inconceivable. We want to pretend this isn't the norm. So we jump on the anecdotes that confirm our views and overlook the rest.
 
sammsky1 said:
What’s the point of all this intense UK Government and media discussion on what will and won’t be allowed over XMAS when whatever is decided won’t be policed or legally enforced anyway?
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BluesJr said:
This is the biggest issue imo. There’s literally no enforcement. It’s embarrassing.
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How do you both suggest it's enforced differently?

Simply has to be led by self policing and discipline.
 
TheReligion said:
How do you both suggest it's enforced differently?

Simply has to be led by self policing and discipline.
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You could put curfews in place, ban travel over the Xmas period unless you can prove its for work, stop and searches on trains motorways...

Not saying it should be done, but if the government wanted to it would be fairly doable!
 
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