Shamima Begum, IS teen wants to come back to the UK

[starman]

So...where does a stateless person go?

Mars?

The IDP-Sexuals will love it, first women, first person of colour, first Muslim on Mars. Upon completion of the mission she could get her citizenship back.

 

[calodo2003]

And the Current Events forum quota of "at all times at least one open fascist" is filled.

Similar to us always playing an academy lad every week.

 

[calodo2003]

Here you go

Thanks for that. What would her sentence presumably be if found guilty?

 

[Widow]

Thanks for that. What would her sentence presumably be if found guilty?

For that one charge, the Act outlines a maximum of 10 years. I imagine it wouldn't be the only charge brought forward though.

 

[berbatrick]

Is this meant to be sarcastic, or do you actually believe all of this?

The man released after serving a lifetime in prison was 15 when he was convicted. Yes, it was a very bad crime, but he wasn't the main protagonist, it appears. He's not a disgusting excuse or filth, he's a man who by any sane person's yardstick has been punished several times over for what he did. His whole life has gone, now he just has the chance to have a few years as a free man.

And as for giving the death penalty to juveniles, that's just insane and wicked.

yes. the (non-sarcastic) positions taken by so many in this thread are crazy to me.

 

[Jippy]

yes. the (non-sarcastic) positions taken by so many in this thread are crazy to me.

The do-gooder Shamimasexuals are the worst.

 

[Penna]

I don't know, it's all very depressing. She met people online, she got caught up in something that sounded like a great adventure, so did her pals. They all run away in secret.

Some years later, one girl is dead, one has disappeared, the other has had 3 children who have all died and she is now considered a lost cause. In the meantime they've all become part of a murderous organisation and have done awful things. No-one wins, everyone loses.

 

[The Corinthian]

No excuses for her. She was 15. I stopped making all my wrong decisions by 11 years old maybe 12 at the most.

white text obv

 

[Gehrman]

I don't know, it's all very depressing. She met people online, she got caught up in something that sounded like a great adventure, so did her pals. They all run away in secret.

Some years later, one girl is dead, one has disappeared, the other has had 3 children who have all died and she is now considered a lost cause. In the meantime they've all become part of a murderous organisation and have done awful things. No-one wins, everyone loses.

Part of her "grooming" was watching Isis beheading people. I don't doubt she found some allure in marrying a jihadist and the allure of a perverse interpretation of matyrdom, but at 15, you know that beheading people and throwing gays of rooftops is evil. Personally I found this article on who's to blame for her "radicalisation" pretty spot on. It's a tragedy for everyone for sure, but it's not a victimless tragedy. But you're right everyone loses.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/britain-is-not-to-blame-for-shamima-begum-s-radicalisation

 

[Penna]

Part of her "grooming" was watching Isis beheading people. I don't doubt she found some allure in marrying a jihadist and the allure of perverse interpretation of matyrdom, but at 15, you know that beheading people and throwing gays of rooftops is evil. Personally I found this article on who's to blame for her "radicalisation" pretty spot on. It's a tragedy for everyone for sure, but it's not a victimless tragedy. But you're right everyone loses.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/britain-is-not-to-blame-for-shamima-begum-s-radicalisation

Good response, I can't argue with what you say.

 

[Roane]

Part of her "grooming" was watching Isis beheading people. I don't doubt she found some allure in marrying a jihadist and the allure of a perverse interpretation of matyrdom, but at 15, you know that beheading people and throwing gays of rooftops is evil. Personally I found this article on who's to blame for her "radicalisation" pretty spot on. It's a tragedy for everyone for sure, but it's not a victimless tragedy. But you're right everyone loses.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/britain-is-not-to-blame-for-shamima-begum-s-radicalisation

Is this true though??

I'm not saying it isn't but from what I've read there seems to be a "truth" and a "narrative" with the recruitment element.

The consistent one seems to be about a girl called sharmeena begum (similar name but different girl) whose background was death if her mother and father remarrying and her leaving home to live with a grandmother, being recruited at a local mosque (ornsonits believed) and then travelling in her grandmother's passport.

Her father informed police to keep an eye on her mates etc a year before the three, including Shamima went. Also there was 9 girls in total but the other were stopped and made wards or something.

The recruitment of Shamima and her mates is at best conjecture but I haven't read about the beheadings etc. More a utopia being sold to them.

Again not saying you don't have evidence for what you are saying, maybe you can present it? But i do think a narrative has been presented on social media etc that doesn't seem to come through on the articles etc surrounding the case.

 

[Gehrman]

Is this true though??

I'm not saying it isn't but from what I've read there seems to be a "truth" and a "narrative" with the recruitment element.

The consistent one seems to be about a girl called sharmeena begum (similar name but different girl) whose background was death if her mother and father remarrying and her leaving home to live with a grandmother, being recruited at a local mosque (ornsonits believed) and then travelling in her grandmother's passport.

Her father informed police to keep an eye on her mates etc a year before the three, including Shamima went. Also there was 9 girls in total but the other were stopped and made wards or something.

The recruitment of Shamima and her mates is at best conjecture but I haven't read about the beheadings etc. More a utopia being sold to them.

Again not saying you don't have evidence for what you are saying, maybe you can present it? But i do think a narrative has been presented on social media etc that doesn't seem to come through on the articles etc surrounding the case.

She said this part in one of her interviews. About the whole story it isn't something I have spent a massive time researching, so I frankly don't feel more informed than the author. I have british ancestry, but I'm not a UK citizen, so I havn't spent much time on this since it's largely UK news.

 

[Roane]

She said this part in one of her interviews. About the whole story it isn't something I have spent a massive time researching, so I frankly don't feel more informed than the author. I have british ancestry, but I'm not a UK citizen, so I havn't spent much time on this since it's largely UK news.

Fair enough.

I know in her interview she said she saw a head in a bin/bucket or something like that. But iirc it wasn't with regards to her initial recruitment to isis.

I could be wrong obviously but I doubt beheadings and videos of such would be much of a recruitment tool for use when recruiting young girls. The utopia angle is probably the most accurate imho

 

[nickm]

She said this part in one of her interviews. About the whole story it isn't something I have spent a massive time researching, so I frankly don't feel more informed than the author. I have british ancestry, but I'm not a UK citizen, so I havn't spent much time on this since it's largely UK news.

I kind of think this is why we have courts, and why she needs to be hauled in front of them. So we can find our her actual culpability through due process.

Quite apart from a politician in effect being able to withdraw citizenship from someone they don't like.

 

[Gehrman]

Fair enough.

I know in her interview she said she saw a head in a bin/bucket or something like that. But iirc it wasn't with regards to her initial recruitment to isis.

I could be wrong obviously but I doubt beheadings and videos of such would be much of a recruitment tool for use when recruiting young girls. The utopia angle is probably the most accurate imho

I didn't bookmark the interview, but it was 10 min interview with the BBC, but I can only find the 5 minute one atm which leaves out the parts how she was groomed. She said she saw beheadings, but also happy videos as well. There is another short interview as well where it she says she was aware of the beheadings, but didn't think it was wrong.

This isn't the interview I was talking about because that was a 10 minute interview with the BBC that I can't find again, but she admits to being aware of the beheadings beforehand in this interview

 

[MadMike]

Didnt exactly the same happen to Jack Letts?

Not exactly. He had two citizenships since berth, unlike Begum who only had one. She was merely eligible for a 2nd one through her parents but never pursued it. Losing her British Citizenship made her stateless, but Letts is still Canadian.

It would be exactly the same if he had only British citizenship and got stripped of that, while being merely eligible for Canadian through his father.

It is similar though, just not the same.

 

[Sultan]

The reason she is not allowed back is the probability of her being a danger to the public. Laws cannot be assumed and justice is not a market place to harvest goodwill for politicians. We really don't know her inner thoughts and if she still poses a threat. As a country, we are washing our hands of responsibility. It's no fault of her parents came from Bangladesh therefore her nationality is worth any less.

Justice dictates she should be brought back to the UK and should be sentenced on the basis of her crimes. The action taken by the home secretary is to be both judge and jury.

 

[Roane]

I didn't bookmark the interview, but it was 10 min interview with the BBC, but I can only find the 5 minute one atm which leaves out the parts how she was groomed. She said she saw beheadings, but also happy videos as well. There is another short interview as well where it she says she was aware of the beheadings, but didn't think it was wrong.

This isn't the interview I was talking about because that was a 10 minute interview with the BBC that I can't find again, but she admits to being aware of the beheadings beforehand in this interview

I just found and watched the full interview.

She wasn't groomed by watching the videos, as per your earlier assertion. She said she was aware it happened with dawla but not something she focussed on. Her focus seemed to be the utopia as I suggested earlier.

One thing that struck me listening to that interview was her saying oh would take her time to get dawla out of her system/head.

Also having watched that, her having just had a baby and the conditions she said she had been in, wonder about her state of mind.

 

[Gehrman]

I just found and watched the full interview.

She wasn't groomed by watching the videos, as per your earlier assertion. She said she was aware it happened with dawla but not something she focussed on. Her focus seemed to be the utopia as I suggested earlier.

One thing that struck me listening to that interview was her saying oh would take her time to get dawla out of her system/head.

Also having watched that, her having just had a baby and the conditions she said she had been in, wonder about her state of mind.

Can you link me the interview, because Im not sure we are talking about the same one.

It was the 10 min version of this one.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-47276572

 

[Member 60376]

It’s not a tough one at all. She was still a child when the government failed to protect her from radicalisation and failed to stop her leaving the country.

How can a government prevent radicalisation when the rifts in UK society are so deep? And when human rights tend to get abused whenever they try something 1984 style?

No government in the world, let alone one of the Western ones, can prevent radicalisation. Its been tried and tried and tried. Doesn't work. Organised religious fanaticism will always find a way.

 

[Roane]

Can you link me the interview, because Im not sure we are talking about the same one.

It was the 10 min version of this one.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-47276572

I just googled Shamima begum interview and it came up.

It is the same one as you posted above but longer, over ten minutes long

 

[Roane]

Rumour doing the rounds that the guy who groomed her was an intelligence asset.

BS or anyone heard anything?

 

[Gehrman]

Rumour doing the rounds that the guy who groomed her was an intelligence asset.

BS or anyone heard anything?

What does that mean?

To me this sounds a bit like the trope: "It was Mossad who did it!"

 

[Widow]

The reason she is not allowed back is the probability of her being a danger to the public. Laws cannot be assumed and justice is not a market place to harvest goodwill for politicians. We really don't know her inner thoughts and if she still poses a threat. As a country, we are washing our hands of responsibility. It's no fault of her parents came from Bangladesh therefore her nationality is worth any less.

Justice dictates she should be brought back to the UK and should be sentenced on the basis of her crimes. The action taken by the home secretary is to be both judge and jury.

The Home Secretary used the law to remove her citizenship. If this was wrong, it will be the law that will overturn the action.

The Government and the Judiciary are independent of each other, strengthened by the Constitutional Reform Act 2005. Although Patel and Javid would like their words to carry weight, a Judge cannot be influenced by a Secretary of State.

We can say that we believe she should be allowed back to face punishment BUT we cannot assume the law, as you stated. True is, this is an issue that will take months of debate to get anywhere close to finding the correct legal outcome.

In law, Justice and Justness are terms used often but both have a very different meaning.

 

[Widow]

Rumour doing the rounds that the guy who groomed her was an intelligence asset.

BS or anyone heard anything?

Nonsense!

 

[Classical Mechanic]

What does that mean

Essentially that the UK govt groomed her in order to create political capital

 

[Gehrman]

Essentially that the UK govt groomed her in order to create political capital

Essentially I would consider that islamist propaganda.

 

[Sultan]

The Home Secretary used the law to remove her citizenship. If this was wrong, it will be the law that will overturn the action.

The Government and the Judiciary are independent of each other, strengthened by the Constitutional Reform Act 2005. Although Patel and Javid would like their words to carry weight, a Judge cannot be influenced by a Secretary of State.

We can say that we believe she should be allowed back to face punishment BUT we cannot assume the law, as you stated. True is, this is an issue that will take months of debate to get anywhere close to finding the correct legal outcome.

In law, Justice and Justness are terms used often but both have a very different meaning.

The law is being assumed. She is being denied entry on the assumption of her being a danger to the public. A law cannot be right if it's based on probabilities.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Essentially I would consider that islamist propaganda.

It seems unlikey.

 

[Sultan]

Essentially that the UK govt groomed her in order to create political capital

Essentially I would consider that islamist propaganda.

Idle rumours until proven. Although I wouldn't put it past both the Government or ISIS to play such games with basically a girl just past her childhood who could easily be impressed by a young man and manipulated.

 

[Roane]

Interesting piece by anthony lloyd, guy who found and interviewed shamima in go magazine from 2019

 

[Roane]

What does that mean?

To me this sounds a bit like the trope: "It was Mossad who did it!"

I just heard a rumour of someone and have asked for proof.

Just thought I'd ask if anyone had heard anything.

If I'm given any proof will post it.

Am sceptical tbh

 

[Gehrman]

Idle rumours until proven. Although I wouldn't put it past both the Government or ISIS to play such games with basically a girl just past her childhood who could easily be impressed by a young man and manipulated.

Would you honestly contemplate the idea that the british goverment would groom girls to join ISIS? Are you from the UK? There is plenty of things to be flung at the UK goverment, but I very much doubt this would be their kind of thing.

 

[Widow]

The law is being assumed. She is being denied entry on the assumption of her being a danger to the public. A law cannot be right if it's based on probabilities.

She had her citizenship revoked because she presents a danger to the public, different things.

The Terrorism Act 2006 sets out the legal definition of a terrorist. If a person meets the legal test, they will be treated as such. A terrorist must be seen as a threat to the public by definition.

I think she should rot in a UK jail and I imagine, after much debate, that's what will happen.

 

[Jippy]

The Home Secretary used the law to remove her citizenship. If this was wrong, it will be the law that will overturn the action.

The Government and the Judiciary are independent of each other, strengthened by the Constitutional Reform Act 2005. Although Patel and Javid would like their words to carry weight, a Judge cannot be influenced by a Secretary of State.

We can say that we believe she should be allowed back to face punishment BUT we cannot assume the law, as you stated. True is, this is an issue that will take months of debate to get anywhere close to finding the correct legal outcome.

In law, Justice and Justness are terms used often but both have a very different meaning.

It's utter bollocks that she's such a threat to national security that she can have her citizenship stripped and right to a fair trial removed. Seriously, she isn't Wonder Woman.
The Supreme Court is legitimising the home sec's dubious actions and setting dubious legal precedent. Have a problem citizen? Just sling them out and let the rest of the world clean up your shit.

 

[iluvoursolskjær]

A British born and bred 15 year old girl gets groomed and jumps country on her sister's passport, marries an older guy and loses 3 kids playing ISIS bride. Though a piece of shit no doubt, interviews make it clear she isn't particularly bright neither all 'with it'. This is the scenario you'll want to pick to say "this is where we draw the line on due process, feck her she knows what she did".


Morality is a funny thing. I wish I had the time and energy to teach you kids but I haven't the hope.

 

[Gehrman]

A British born and bred 15 year old girl gets groomed and jumps country on her sister's passport, marries an older guy and loses 3 kids playing ISIS bride. Though a piece of shit no doubt, interviews make it clear she isn't particularly bright neither all 'with it'. This is the scenario you'll want to pick to say "this is where we draw the line on due process, feck her she knows what she did".


Morality is a funny thing. I wish I had the time and energy to teach you kids but I haven't the hope.

You must obviously be incredibly old and wise to refer to us as kids. But please do teach us kids. Bring it on Socrates.

 

[Roane]

Idle rumours until proven. Although I wouldn't put it past both the Government or ISIS to play such games with basically a girl just past her childhood who could easily be impressed by a young man and manipulated.

The guy is said to be called "John" and he met the 3 girls in Turkey. He was the guy they were meant to meet when there.

He was syrian asset for canadian intelligence.

Again need to verify this.

Edit: seems there is/was a guy arrested who was found with the girls tickets etc (and ,20 other people) in his possession and screenshots of the info he passed to canadian intelligence officials.

His real name is mohammed al rashed.

He received multiple money transfers from England from "arab names" but a turkish report says there is no evidence he got money from canadian intelligence.

Turkish foreign minister said he was working for a country in the US led coalition to fight isis

He is currently in custody

 

[Widow]

It's utter bollocks that she's such a threat to national security that she can have her citizenship stripped and right to a fair trial removed. Seriously, she isn't Wonder Woman.
The Supreme Court is legitimising the home sec's dubious actions and setting dubious legal precedent. Have a problem citizen? Just sling them out and let the rest of the world clean up your shit.

I understand what you are saying but the law is very precise.

The Supreme Court hasn't ruled on her citizenship. They have ruled on a point of law that she needs to be in the UK to file an appeal at the Court of Appeal. She still has the right to appeal the ruling on her citizenship status, she has a strong case.

Sorry for being anal but people are getting the facts wrong.

As for precedent, the Supreme Court is not bound by its decisions. Lower courts are but they can be appealed.

 

[Sultan]

Would you honestly contemplate the idea that the british goverment would groom girls to join ISIS? Are you from the UK? There is plenty of things to be flung at the UK goverment, but I very much doubt this would be their kind of thing.

Getting involved in a conflict with the possibility of getting your young men and women killed and spending millions needs to be justified. Propaganda and PR plays a massive role in such situations.