Shamima Begum, IS teen wants to come back to the UK

[Roane]

Yes well that would be the rest of the book.

Give me an overview

The abu hassan al asharee quite gives me a little insight

 

[Penna]

My brother-in-law is Jewish, he follows none of the dietary restrictions, doesn't attend synagogue but still defines himself as Jewish. It's a bit like people who never go to church or think about anything spiritual and then write "Church of England" when asked to give their religion.

Obviously there will be Muslims who don't follow the "rules" as much as others, but would still always identify as Muslim.

 

[africanspur]

Would you call them muslim?

If he or she considered themselves Muslim, then yes.

Would you?

 

[Gehrman]

My brother-in-law is Jewish, he follows none of the dietary restrictions, doesn't attend synagogue but still defines himself as Jewish. It's a bit like people who never go to church or think about anything spiritual and then write "Church of England" when asked to give their religion.

Obviously there will be Muslims who don't follow the "rules" as much as others, but would still always identify as Muslim.

A lot of modern Jews became cultural Jews after WW2 because there was no way they reconcile the notion of God with the holocaust. So I've heard that most jews living today are not religious.

But still I guess there are different to degrees to which you can practice your religion. Basically you can still believe in or practice a faith without going all in. I suppose what differs from religion to religion is what the deal breaker is.

 

[Roane]

My brother-in-law is Jewish, he follows none of the dietary restrictions, doesn't attend synagogue but still defines himself as Jewish. It's a bit like people who never go to church or think about anything spiritual and then write "Church of England" when asked to give their religion.

Obviously there will be Muslims who don't follow the "rules" as much as others, but would still always identify as Muslim.

It maybe in context of Israel rather than Judaism but the classification is based on heritage rather than practise. So in essence you can be a n atheist and still classed as a Jew.

Not so sure the religion itself allows for that in scriptures etc, rather it's an "interpretation" that is used.

Similarly with christianity. People will say they are christian to, for example, get their kids into a religious school but would otherwise be classing themselves as agnostic or atheist.

In Islam we have similar where certain "sects" have tried to adopt similar stances. So you get the whole "oh as long as he said the shahadah he is muslim" but (and this is a true story) the guy was killed by his girlfriend while drunk and mixing up drugs to sell.

I think the above offers solace to the family maybe, but going by scripture etc not so sure.

Of course there is the concept of being a bad muslim/christian/jew whilst still being muslim/christian/jew.

So for the drinking wine example. If a person was to acknowledge it was bad according to their faith but did it anyway that's one thing, but to say it's allowed because my family drank it for years goes against the command that even one drop is haraam/not allowed. To change the "law" to suit takes you outside the fold. If that makes sense?

 

[Roane]

If he or she considered themselves Muslim, then yes.

Would you?

As a general rule no I wouldn't.

Specific to individuals there may be factors where I would.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

As a general rule no I wouldn't.

Specific to individuals there may be factors where I would.

Do you have the authority to decree who and who isn't a Muslim regardless of their self-determination, or is this a case of reading the tenets and understanding them?

 

[Sky1981]

Would you call them muslim?

I would.

 

[africanspur]

As a general rule no I wouldn't.

Specific to individuals there may be factors where I would.

Maybe taking this thread off topic slightly but why wouldn't you? And do you feel it is the place of individual Muslims to make such judgements?


And the problem with these judgements more generally is where exactly does it stop? I say this as someone who comes initially from a Muslim background and who's wife comes from a half Muslim family. Some of her family would consider a woman who wears trousers for instance to have a sketchy status when it comes to being Muslim. Others if you don't pray 5 times a day. Others if a Muslim woman married a non Muslim man.

Admittedly I'm far more attuned to the Muslim community considering my own circumstances but I've never or very rarely heard of British Jews, Hindus, Sikhs or Christians saying someone isn't a member of their faith because of eating pork, eating beef, not wearing a turban and cutting their hair or wear mixed fabrics.

Edit: apologies, just realised I've made the assumption that you are British or from a Western country, when you've given no indication that this is the case. Apologies if this isn't the case.

 

[Roane]

Do you have the authority to decree who and who isn't a Muslim regardless of their self-determination, or is this a case of reading the tenets and understanding them?

Its quite clear cut, in certain things. And to a degree we, as muslims, are given a certain authourity (with knowledge of certain tenants and understanding them) to make that decree

The notion of general and specific, as I answered the question, also applies. This would basically mean that generally a person drinking alcohol or eating pork would not be Muslim. But specifically a new convert may just be ignorant of that rule so you give them an excuse.

This is why sometimes you see conflict with how someone who is a scholar is judged and how a lay person is judged

 

[Sparky_Hughes]

America is known to be fast and loose with rules and rights, why not slip the yanks a bung and book her a spot at chez Guantanamo?

 

[Roane]

Maybe taking this thread off topic slightly but why wouldn't you? And do you feel it is the place of individual Muslims to make such judgements?


And the problem with these judgements more generally is where exactly does it stop? I say this as someone who comes initially from a Muslim background and who's wife comes from a half Muslim family. Some of her family would consider a woman who wears trousers for instance to have a sketchy status when it comes to being Muslim. Others if you don't pray 5 times a day. Others if a Muslim woman married a non Muslim man.

Admittedly I'm far more attuned to the Muslim community considering my own circumstances but I've never or very rarely heard of British Jews, Hindus, Sikhs or Christians saying someone isn't a member of their faith because of eating pork, eating beef, not wearing a turban and cutting their hair or wear mixed fabrics.

This would require a more in depth response than what I can give, am at work.

However the authourity is given to make certain judgements, based on scripture and hadith and scholarly understandings.

To be clear discussing something and actually applying it to an individual are different.

Also depends on the point being discussed. So to use your examples, the wearing of certain trousers by a woman is not something you would automatically say makes a person a non muslim, yet a Muslim marrying a non muslim has clear "guidelines" that are easier to make a judgement.

Edit:. No need for apologies. But yeah I am British. Although not born here

 

[The Corinthian]

Yes but in this case, the 'cause' involved killing infidels in a country far away from your own. ISIS were not exactly shy about telegraphing what they were doing in Iraq and Syria and some pretty otherwise normal people still decided to go over from the West, many of whom when caught somehow all seemed to be just butchers or engineers or doctors. God knows who was doing any actual fighting there.

I'm not sure people not changing their entire culture to hang out with a Muslim doctor is really the same as having a brutal childhood tbh and I can't see how that can in any way be used as a justification at all.

Kid gets raped by step dad when young, grows up to be a serial killer. I'm not justifying it but yes I can understand why he may have grown up with such a warped view of the world.

Muslim person grows up in the UK, grows up to become a doctor, doesn't get to go to the pub because they see it as against their religion, goes to join ISIS...nope, not the same for me. And I don't really know what people expect or want. Its engrained in British, American and European cultures, rightly or wrongly. A lot of hospital socials involve alcohol. Some non-drinkers still attend, some choose not to.

Either way, it should have about as much impact on their decision to join ISIS as their hair colour.

Quite a few of the atrocities committed by IS in the European countries were committed by non-religious people with a history of drug abuse and mental illnesses.

I think there is some correlation between these terrorists and their upbringing (difficult childhood, drug use, mental illnesses, often in foster care).

The IS people actually out in Iraq/Syria I think were formed from the chaos of the region over the last 10-15 years, and a general resentment to foreign interference. Couple that with al-Baghdadis rhetoric and you have a recipe for disaster.

 

[2cents]

Give me an overview

The abu hassan al asharee quite gives me a little insight

My own thoughts on it are probably best saved for a different thread. Here’s a positive review if you’re interested -https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.thenation.com/article/archive/contradiction-and-diversity/tnamp/

I think you’re probably reading too much into a single quote by the way.

 

[2mufc0]

My brother-in-law is Jewish, he follows none of the dietary restrictions, doesn't attend synagogue but still defines himself as Jewish. It's a bit like people who never go to church or think about anything spiritual and then write "Church of England" when asked to give their religion.

Obviously there will be Muslims who don't follow the "rules" as much as others, but would still always identify as Muslim.

I think that's what you call a secular Jew? Maybe the Muslim equivalent would be a cultural Muslim?

 

[Synco]

I think that's what you call a secular Jew? Maybe the Muslim equivalent would be a cultural Muslim?

Secular Muslim is actually an often used term, as far as I know.

 

[2mufc0]

Secular Muslim is actually an often used term, as far as I know.

I haven't come across it that much, but don't have any objection if someone wants to identify as such. I guess either terms work.

 

[Roane]

My own thoughts on it are probably best saved for a different thread. Here’s a positive review if you’re interested -https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.thenation.com/article/archive/contradiction-and-diversity/tnamp/

I think you’re probably reading too much into a single quote by the way.

Cheers I'll have read when I get a moment.

Yeah I think I sometimes go off in my head. Thing is that I can usually "understand" the basis of an argument based on who a person uses in their argument, about Islam. So Ashari sect bases arguments require a different discussion than say salafis or sufi etc.

 

[Synco]

I haven't come across it that much, but don't have any objection if someone wants to identify as such. I guess either terms work.

Yes, it seems like different terms for the same thing, and I guess both are understood.

 

[2cents]

Cheers I'll have read when I get a moment.

Yeah I think I sometimes go off in my head. Thing is that I can usually "understand" the basis of an argument based on who a person uses in their argument, about Islam. So Ashari sect bases arguments require a different discussion than say salafis or sufi etc.

The author quotes widely throughout, his is not an argument based on an allegiance to any particular school of thought - indeed that would contradict exactly what he’s trying to do in the book.

 

[Dr. Funkenstein]

Do you think the N and P word doesn't happen in europe?

For most of Europeans English is not their native language and foreign languages tend to have different words. Unlike the UK European countries tend to have no considerable Pakistani community as not many Pakistani and those not forming an actual community. I recently helped a friend move to a sleepy 2000 souls village in the rural North of the Netherlands, and in his eagerness to show to us city folks that helped him moving the village wasn't that backward and his personal enthousiasm for the multicultural society he mentioned that his neighbour had Pakistani background by abbreviating it colloquially. Because of the similarity between Dutch and English in this I warned him this could be seen as a racial/ethnic slur and not just an abbreviation and the rest of the city folks agreed so little chance of him starting off on the wrong foot with his mixed neighbour couple.

European countries with a bigger multitude of cultures and more English proficiency are scarce so it seems highly unlikely there are many European countries with a P-word. The N-word is more complicated because of it's Latin origin. So France has/had a neutral word with an N, Romania as we recently found out, Germany probably but I'm sure they have been threading carefully while not having a much of a black community for decades. Often the neutral word for a black man or black woman starts with an N, but that neutrality is subjected to change mainly because of American influences, many of them not good. Often this has nothing to do with muslims because they aren't black.

Muslims having drinks with you?

Of course. No idea if they're real muslims or good muslims and frankly I don't care. Apostasy is a taboo in islam, that's a given for me, they don't renounce islam like born christians often do. Who I'm a to claim someone isn't muslim who thinks he is while having a beer with me? Or something non-alcoholic, I don't have much of an opinion on what other people drink anyway. But I'm well aware it's not a representation of the entire muslim community I'm having drinks with, there's a preselection that simply happens much like the fact that I don't have drinks with stern calvinists very often. No, I'm not welcoming to people who are uncomfortable with other people drinking alcohol and I have little chance of meeting them. I'm not welcoming to people with an ideology that might get them to join IS later on either but that tends to be a self-segregating bunch I'm not in touch with anyway.

 

[Sparky_Hughes]

Given that she stomped off to the middle east to get involved in a war that didnt concern her Im surprised she isnt being brought back and made secretary of defence.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

The P word and the N word in Europe? Not going for drinks with someone who some time later beheads or drives a tank over people who have drunk alcohol seems to me a matter of good character judgement rather than discrimination. Besides that why would I believe them anyway, not just because they joined IS which is quite an extreme reaction and not being welocmed a lousy excuse, quite a few muslims also have a habit of blaming everybody and everything but never their religion (or themselves, but that might differ between islamic cultures). I'm pretty sure the muslims I have drinks with would never join IS.

I'm pretty sure you don't have drinks with any Muslims mate, let's face it. Your posts reek of prejudice.

 

[Sultan]

There's actually no process or ceremony to leave the fold of Islam. Rejection of basic fundamentals is the main reason. Sinning does not take you out of the fold of Islam. You can ask for forgiveness and God being merciful will accept your prayers. However, there are caveats, specific stipulations, conditions, or limitations to keep deliberately sinning in the belief God is all-merciful.

There is a concept in Islam called Tawbah. It literally means to "return". Spiritually, it basically means to turn away from sins and instead, turn to God in his obedience. God has guaranteed acceptance of forgiveness from the one who does it sincerely, and intends to leave that sin behind, so even if a person did fall into it again out of weakness, you can repeat your repentance. However, although God knows our weaknesses as humans he is well aware of who is genuine in their repentance.

Even after rejection, you can always turn towards God and sincerely repenting for your past demeanours can put you back in the fold of Islam.

 

[africanspur]

This would require a more in depth response than what I can give, am at work.

However the authourity is given to make certain judgements, based on scripture and hadith and scholarly understandings.

To be clear discussing something and actually applying it to an individual are different.

Also depends on the point being discussed. So to use your examples, the wearing of certain trousers by a woman is not something you would automatically say makes a person a non muslim, yet a Muslim marrying a non muslim has clear "guidelines" that are easier to make a judgement.

Edit:. No need for apologies. But yeah I am British. Although not born here

I don't think the average Muslim has the authority or knowledge to do that. Muslims believe in the omnipotence of Allah, let him judge.

That's my point though. Some of those members of the family would genuinely say that a woman wearing trousers (not certain trousers, any trousers) is essentially not a Muslim. The belief that hijab is totally compulsory and that a woman not wearing a hijab is not a Muslim is also not uncommon. There will be far more....strict interpretations by some others in the Middle East too that would exclude even more people.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Strategic new look?

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[UweBein]

Honestly, you need to take her back.
Poor kid, she has suffered so much. (Yes, most of it through the fault of hers or her parents, but still.. if she had been Sheena Reeves from Leeds she would have been back in the UK already.)

 

[Sky1981]

Strategic new look?

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

That's LV wallet?

 

[Sky1981]

My country there's a muslim majority. Indonesia.

The concept is everyone is a muslim. You can steal, eat pork, watch porn, rape, and you'll still be called a muslim. If it goes to trial normally the public would be told that X is a good muslim who does his prayers and his neighbours never expected he was a criminal. You can become a hooker, stripper, and still you will be labelled a muslim. Hijab or no hijab.

Some muslim grou will jeer and made a kafir out of felow Muslims claiming you're not one if you dont do x. X for example works at banking industry (interest is haram). Absurd level. Some even quit their day job and sells parfume door to door. If you vote for a chinese christian fellow for govetnor, you will go to hell and your corpse wont get bathed and given rites of passages. Or you're not a good muslim if you say merry xmas to your neighbors, no happy valentine either because it's jewish tradition.

Some reasoning are quite hillarious. So you're always a muslim. But you arent a muslim some other times.

Obviously it's always debatable among muslims. Some moderat and some radical are always arguing on what makes a muslim and what's halal haram etc. Depends on the issue of the day.

 

[The Corinthian]

My country there's a muslim majority. Indonesia.

The concept is everyone is a muslim. You can steal, eat pork, watch porn, rape, and you'll still be called a muslim. If it goes to trial normally the public would be told that X is a good muslim who does his prayers and his neighbours never expected he was a criminal. You can become a hooker, stripper, and still you will be labelled a muslim. Hijab or no hijab.

Some muslim grou will jeer and made a kafir out of felow Muslims claiming you're not one if you dont do x. X for example works at banking industry (interest is haram). Absurd level. Some even quit their day job and sells parfume door to door. If you vote for a chinese christian fellow for govetnor, you will go to hell and your corpse wont get bathed and given rites of passages. Or you're not a good muslim if you say merry xmas to your neighbors, no happy valentine either because it's jewish tradition.

Some reasoning are quite hillarious. So you're always a muslim. But you arent a muslim some other times.

Ok?

 

[Sky1981]

Ok?

Your point being?

 

[The Corinthian]

Your point being?

I’m trying to figure out yours. What’s that got to do with anything about Shamima Begum and her status as a UK citizen?

 

[Mihai]

Honestly, you need to take her back.
Poor kid, she has suffered so much. (Yes, most of it through the fault of hers or her parents, but still.. if she had been Sheena Reeves from Leeds she would have been back in the UK already.)

Like Jack Letts?

 

[Sky1981]

I’m trying to figure out yours. What’s that got to do with anything about Shamima Begum and her status as a UK citizen?

Because there's a discussion on what makes a muslim in this page.

 

[711]

I’m trying to figure out yours. What’s that got to do with anything about Shamima Begum and her status as a UK citizen?

Read the previous posts.

@Sky1981 was following up on comments made by Sultan, Penna and others about muslim beliefs. I found it quite interesting personally, reading about the different attitudes in different parts of the world.

 

[marukomu]

Feck me. One year later and that bird is still trying to get back in?

 

[UweBein]

Where is she supposed to go?
Love it or hate it, she is British.

 

[P-Ro]

Where is she supposed to go?

Hell, probably.

 

[fergosaurus]

Watched 'The Return: Life After ISIS' last night. Hopefully some day they're allowed back and given a fair trial. The way they're being treated by their governments is counterproductive and being used by extremists to radicalise people.

 

[Peter van der Gea]

Hell, probably.

Which one? The Christian one or the Muslim one?