I have that. For virus particles, it's not much better or worse than the cheat non-cloth masks that you'd wear otherwise. (Also depends on the fabric, of course.)Yeah, I find those hilarious tbf.
I have that. For virus particles, it's not much better or worse than the cheat non-cloth masks that you'd wear otherwise. (Also depends on the fabric, of course.)Yeah, I find those hilarious tbf.
That shows the spread of bacteria, which is irrelevant here as Covid is not a form of bacteria.
think respiratory droplets is the key here. Covid-19 (a virus) doesn't just fly out of the mouth, it spreads through respiratory droplets and aerosols. And masks prevents those droplets from disseminating (to a varying range of effectiveness).That shows the spread of bacteria, which is irrelevant here as Covid is not a form of bacteria.
This is a great point.If there was no coronavirus and people said that wearing a mask protected your from the “government’s 5G” then all these people not wearing would be the ones wearing them. There are always people who just exist to go against the grain.
Right, it has to do with amount of ejection which is why indoor events featuring talking loudly or singing are often super spreader occasions: parties, churches, bars, clubs, etc...think respiratory droplets is the key here. Covid-19 (a virus) doesn't just fly out of the mouth, it spreads through respiratory droplets and aerosols. And masks prevents those droplets from disseminating (to a varying range of effectiveness).
Cloth masks aren't to protect yourself from others, they're to protect others from you, though they do offer a small amount of protection for you as well.I wear one cos I don’t wanna come across as an asshole. But I’m not convinced they really do anything, especially the cloth kind I see most people wearing.
I'm simply saying it is specific to bacteria which is a different and usually a larger organism.think respiratory droplets is the key here. Covid-19 (a virus) doesn't just fly out of the mouth, it spreads through respiratory droplets and aerosols. And masks prevents those droplets from disseminating (to a varying range of effectiveness).
Can’t the same be said of masks, in general? Or are you saying cloth masks in particular do a poor job of protection for the wearer but better for those around you?Cloth masks aren't to protect yourself from others, they're to protect others from you, though they do offer a small amount of protection for you as well.
I'm the exact same wayThe crazy thing is, whenever I do remember my mask I get very judgey of anyone who doesn’t have one. It’s not a big ask, right? Just put a mask on, you selfish bastards!
If everyone thought like that we will be living with this damn virus for a bit longerI don’t wear one and I haven’t really considered doing so. If I’m instructed to wear one to use public transport, enter a shop, get a hair cut or go to work then I will wear one, as that’s what the people responsible for that vehicle or premises is asking me to do. As of yet, I haven’t used public transport and haven’t been required to wear one to enter a shop.
I think the suggestion that people who don’t wear one are “selfish” is a divisive viewpoint that is out of line with the majority of public behaviour in the UK, for what it’s worth. I know lots of good people (I’d like to think I am one) who don’t wear masks at all. I don’t believe that makes them bad people, and I don’t think you’re going to be given much time if that’s the attitude you choose to take with them.
I’m happy within myself to continue as I am. I follow the guidelines and try my best to give people space. I won’t apologise for that, to tell the truth.
Of course. But unless made non-negotiable, the vast majority of people in the UK will not wear masks unless instructed to do so. The vast majority of people in the UK aren’t bad people who actively want others to suffer either. They just don’t feel like wearing a mask. Mask-wearing is a cultural concept that is going to take a long time to embed within most western societies. It won’t happen with any real speed unless made compulsory.If everyone thought like that we will be living with this damn virus for a bit longer
Yes to the first sentence, at least in terms of ‘masks’ the public are generally wearing.Can’t the same be said of masks, in general? Or are you saying cloth masks in particular do a poor job of protection for the wearer but better for those around you?
No need to put selfish in quotes because this mentality IS selfish. It is no different than the mentality of the anti-vaxers. I have a family member who is unable to get vaccinated due to autoimmune disorders. We count on society not being selfish assholes so that she can survive. When an antivaxers kid got measles and showed up at school she had to be kept home for a month to make sure no other kids came down with it and exposed her beyond the initial one.I don’t wear one and I haven’t really considered doing so. If I’m instructed to wear one to use public transport, enter a shop, get a hair cut or go to work then I will wear one, as that’s what the people responsible for that vehicle or premises is asking me to do. As of yet, I haven’t used public transport and haven’t been required to wear one to enter a shop.
I think the suggestion that people who don’t wear one are “selfish” is a divisive viewpoint that is out of line with the majority of public behaviour in the UK, for what it’s worth. I know lots of good people (I’d like to think I am one) who don’t wear masks at all. I don’t believe that makes them bad people, and I don’t think you’re going to be given much time if that’s the attitude you choose to take with them.
I’m happy within myself to continue as I am. I follow the guidelines and try my best to give people space. I won’t apologise for that, to tell the truth.
I don't think it is quite the same thing. I imagine there are very few disadvantages or risks to getting vaccinated largely because we have been vaccinating people for years, decades even. So I imagine scientists who study in this field understand vaccines very well and consequently can be fairly confident of how to use them correctly etc. However there were risks with mask wearing put forward by the WHO earlier, and perhaps some or all remain valid, or perhaps others or all on the other hand may now be deemed less risky through new evidence and data.No need to put selfish in quotes because this mentality IS selfish. It is no different than the mentality of the anti-vaxers. I have a family member who is unable to get vaccinated due to autoimmune disorders. We count on society not being selfish assholes so that she can survive. When an antivaxers kid got measles and showed up at school she had to be kept home for a month to make sure no other kids came down with it and exposed her beyond the initial one.
It's the same thing with masks. we are not wearing them to protect ourselves, we are wearing them to protect the people around us from us. If the "inconvenience" of wearing a mask outweighs the benefit of protecting our neighbors and fellow humans then what the fukc does that say about us?
So let me see if I understand this. You are saying that since the WHO messed up with their guidance we should give people a pass because they now refuse to accept the correction? I am sorry, I refuse to accept that doing a bad thing because you don't trust scientific and medical advice is an acceptable behavior. Both the US and UK now recommend wearing masks in public. Those of us in the science (which I am) and medical (many in my family) fields have seen this as the common sense from the beginning. My PhD work was in infectious disease and PPE was an essential part of my day for 6 years. I wore masks, gloves, etc. for most of my day. I am still alive last time I checked. My Sister-In-Law has worked in an ER for a decade and wears a mask almost her entire shift. She is still alive. Any excuse for not wearing a mask except for a medical reason comes down to only an unwillingness to do so. So I repeat, if one is unwilling to wear a mask, which in the worst case does nothing at all (not true, but I'll put it out there), and in the best case (reality) can protect others then where the hell are we as a society?I don't think it is quite the same thing. I imagine there are very few disadvantages or risks to getting vaccinated largely because we have been vaccinating people for years, decades even. So I imagine scientists who study in this field understand vaccines very well and consequently can be fairly confident of how to use them correctly etc. However there were risks with mask wearing put forward by the WHO earlier, and perhaps some or all remain valid, or perhaps others or all on the other hand may now be deemed less risky through new evidence and data.
The point is, the reason it is different is because if they had earlier mandated masks as a hard requirement and later it turned out that it led to little, or worse a negative effect (because of those risks), people would have been outraged - much as they are outraged now. The WHO has since changed their guidance, but some people still remain concerned and we shouldn't be so dismissive of those concerns either.
Calling people selfish for simply following advice is also absolutely unwarranted. If the advice changes and people do not follow it, then you can have a go, but really, if you feel the advice is incorrect, your frustration should either be towards your local government or the scientists giving that advice to the government. In my view, the current UK advice (the poster states their location is the UK) on the issue is correct, but perhaps could be made stronger and state that masks should be required for going indoors in areas of poor ventilation or inadequate social distancing.
The guidance wasn't messed up. It gave reasons for and against their use. It wasn't clear how problematic those risks were. At the time, it didn't matter much anyway since most countries had observed lockdown so wearing masks at that time was indeed pointless because everyone, at least from the perspective of the UK, was indoors and isolated. With the passage of time, and presumably more data, the guidance can change.So let me see if I understand this. You are saying that since the WHO messed up with their guidance we should give people a pass because they now refuse to accept the correction?
That poster and I both live in the UK. At least until last week, wearing masks was only mandatory on public transport in England. Perhaps the guidance has changed, I haven't followed it so closely, but having a glance in the news, I can't see it has. The guidance may be different for Scotland, NI or Wales.I am sorry, I refuse to accept that doing a bad thing because you don't trust scientific and medical advice is an acceptable behavior. Both the US and UK now recommend wearing masks in public.
Based on my knowledge, I can think of reasons where wearing masks is unnecessary, based on the physics of the situation. I therefore posted and gave what I felt was quite a balanced and considerate view, which considered both sides of the argument. Can you share for example, why you feel it is necessary for an individual to wear masks outdoors? What knowledge do you have to suggest this is necessary?Those of us in the science (which I am) and medical (many in my family) fields have seen this as the common sense from the beginning. My PhD work was in infectious disease and PPE was an essential part of my day for 6 years. I wore masks, gloves, etc. for most of my day. I am still alive last time I checked. My Sister-In-Law has worked in an ER for a decade and wears a mask almost her entire shift. She is still alive. Any excuse for not wearing a mask except for a medical reason comes down to only an unwillingness to do so.
I will grant that I am probably being unfair with my use of the word selfish. Here in the US it is a constant battle as the use of masks and the virus in general has become a political issue as opposed to one of science based decision making. I am passionate about this for a number of reasons:The guidance wasn't messed up. It gave reasons for and against their use. It wasn't clear how problematic those risks were. At the time, it didn't matter much anyway since most countries had observed lockdown so wearing masks at that time was indeed pointless because everyone, at least from the perspective of the UK, was indoors. With the passage of time, and presumably more data, the guidance can change.
That poster and I both live in the UK. At least until last week, wearing masks was only mandatory on public transport in England. Perhaps the guidance has changed, I haven't followed it so closely, but having a glance in the news, I can't see it has. The guidance may be different for Scotland, NI or Wales.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/staying-safe-outside-your-home/staying-safe-outside-your-home#:~:text=Evidence suggests that wearing a,do not replace social distancing.
Based on my knowledge, I can think of reasons where wearing masks is unnecessary, based on the physics of the situation. I therefore posted and gave what I felt was quite a balanced and considerate view, which considered both sides of the argument. Can you share for example, why you feel it is necessary for an individual to wear masks outdoors? What knowledge do you have to suggest this is necessary?
Bare in mind, that poster did say they would respect whatever law or regulation is in place, and at least from my understanding and theirs, the UK law hasn't changed in that regard. Calling them selfish is completely unwarranted, whatever your qualifications because all they are doing, as you actually want them to, is following the current advice.
I agree and I am worried that it is going to get worse as we get closer to the election. Trump is doing everything possible to ignore the virus and Pence is doing victory laps one the same day we hit record highs for cases AND hospitalizations. One of my old grad school buddies is a lab director at a major southern hospital and the amount of abuse he gets from MAGA's on social media when he tries to combat their idiocy is frightening. Even in 1918 they got the curve down before the fall wave hit. At the rate we are going their will be no second wave as the first will still be cresting!
America seems quite unique in that sense.I will grant that I am probably being unfair with my use of the word selfish. Here in the US it is a constant battle as the use of masks and the virus in general has become a political issue as opposed to one of science based decision making. I am passionate about this for a number of reasons:
You are only seeing half the picture though. The droplets could evaporate or disperse and could deposit on surfaces such as the mask itself. Also, from an outsiders perspective, I was initially, and perhaps overly, worried about behavioural habits, but one thing I remain confused about is the cleaning process. I still have doubts that people are cleaning properly the homemade coverings (if indeed they can be cleaned properly) or doing it frequently enough and this is an example of one of those risks. It shouldn't mean we issue advice not to wear masks, but rather as scientists we acknowledge there may be downsides and explore what effect they have. In my view this is what the WHO did. It was tiring for example, arguing with someone else in the main thread who said "wearing masks was obvious" without even acknowledging any of the physics involved nor the risks, however small they may turn out to be. I am sure you of all people will be fully aware that even what appears to be a simple experiment, will turn out to have a huge number of weird(!) and wonderful(?) problems that you didn't initially consider during the planning.1. I dedicated a large portion of my life to the study of infectious diseases.
2. I have family members who are in the extreme risk category who have not left their house in months, and will not be able to do so any time soon, because my country can not get this under control.
3. I have had people in my circle of family/friends who have died from COVID.
Point number 1 means I know for a fact that point number 2 and number 3 did, and do not need to continue to happen. Basic human decency and selflessness could have flattened the curve in this country. Competent and science based leadership could have directed us in the right direction. My country is lacking all of those things. We have no competent leadership, we have a large portion of the country who do not believe in science, and we have an utter disregard for decency and the value of human life.
Generally because wearing industrial grade masks, as you will know, is not something you want to be doing on a prolonged basis. If it isn't necessary, then we can avoid that problem and also save single use masks for when they would be necessary, e.g. indoors. The science also backs that up. Droplets disperse radially from a point source in a turbulent flow and quite a lot of the time, the wind will be turbulent, and much of the time at the very least either what some authors may say is "nominally turbulent" or even colloquially as a weak breeze. This neglects the evaporation effects as well, where turbulence is known to promote evaporation due to advective heat transfer processes. So really, apart from a few exceptions (which always exist), wearing them outdoors just doesn't seem necessary to me, unless you find yourself in very crowded places, and even then, the science, to me at least, isn't as clear cut because of these mechanisms.Will wearing a mask prevent all infections? No. But when used in conjunction with social distancing and reasonable decision making it can do a damn good job at reducing the number of infections. Wearing a mask indoors is recommended in both our countries. Not required, but recommended. So I guess my question is this, if you (this is a generic you, not directed at you personally) will do something if it is required, why would you not do it when it is recommended? What is preventing you from following the science and wearing it when indoors?
Wearing a mask outdoors is a different issue as long as you can stay socially distanced. However, if one is at an outside event, or at a park or beach where anyone can quickly get close, I would see this as a definite instance where a mask should be worn outside.
Amazon, Groupon, pharmacies - you can make a face-covering with ties in a couple of minutes from an old tee-shirt.Where are people buying their masks from?
Your honesty is so refreshing.I fully intend to wear one in shops and public transport. Keep forgetting the fecking thing though. Reckon I’ve a 50% success rate in shops over the last couple of weeks.
The crazy thing is, whenever I do remember my mask I get very judgey of anyone who doesn’t have one. It’s not a big ask, right? Just put a mask on, you selfish bastards!
Even though it’s basically me the last time I went shopping.
What about “things gotta breathe” option?You left off the ‘my body is my temple and god would be offended if I covered up the reflection of his glory’ option.
That's a useful article, well worth a read.
The "high speed video" experiment it refers to (it isn't high speed in my view), seems to have a genuine problem with how the authors measure the size of the droplets.That's a useful article, well worth a read.
So there are a number of complicating factors, ranging from the environment it takes place in to the way it is adhered to, that feed into the decision. Or, as I said in the post you quoted, it is not "the obvious decision in all scenarios".There is absolutely zero doubt scientifically that wearing a mask reduces virus spread. Of course, only the high-end masks (that only designated people can get their hands on) block over 90% of virus particles, which is MUCH lower for the cheaper and cloth masks. But every little helps. Also, wearing a mask is more about protecting others than yourself: virus particles can still enter through your eyes and ears if you wear a mask, but at least some of what you breath, cough, etc. out gets blocked.
Why it's not mandatory anyway: because of what happens when people have to wear masks. People with masks tend to feel safe and no longer sufficiently take all the others precautions (like keeping their distance - which is more important than wearing a mask in well-ventilated and outside areas), and people wear masks wrong, keep fiddling with them and thus touching them and their faces, and so on. Also, making masks mandatory can lead to social tensions.
Governments have to balance these pros and cons and figure out a balance. In most places in the west, that now have limited numbers of cases and no tradition of wearing masks, that tends to result in stuff like 'strongly recommended', and no more. It is easier in Southeast Asia, where people are more used to wearing masks and people tend to be more sensitive to arguments about 'for the good of society'.
So yes, I think you can reasonably make this into a moral issue. If you are well-informed, care about the wellbeing of people around you (if you don't care to get sick, they might), and can muster the discipline of wearing a mask properly, then I think you arguably have an obligation to wear face masks when you're in crowded or indoor areas.