Putting in a top notch performance, setting an example for other teammates, bollocking the team when they are underperforming..the list goes on.
10
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 41
- Goals
- 15
- Assists
- 6
- Yellow cards
- 5
- Status
So nothing much that is credible in the end there really. Another fan assumption on performance metrics they are unable to gauge and fully understand but have come to a solid conclusion anyway. A bit strange, to say the least.
Huh. Roy Keane used to do that when he was our captain. So, did Vida when he found the back 4 disorganised.
Yeah, I know. Patty Evra used to do it as well. Giggsy sometimes gave the boys a real rev up during the match.
I don't doubt his huff and puff/desire to win but he gives the ball away too cheaply and predictably for our supposed talisman
That doesn't really have anything to do with leadership metrics and how to gauge them?...
So your angle for sheltering him from criticism is to claim his quality intangible.
It's clear as day he's a very pale shadow of the leaders we have had in the past like Vidic, Neville and Keane. just because we can't bring up some opta statistics doesn't mean it's not a valid argument. He can't strung a sentence together without breaking it up with "eeeehm" how is he supposed to inspire anyone?
He does absolutely feck all marshalling on the field. When have you ever seen him directing the play like Keane does or like Basti did in his few games for us.
He's not a leader it's as simple as that and the argument that it's unquantifiable is weak.
I'm not sheltering him for criticism. I don't really care what some people say on a forum, I doubt he does either. I was just curious as to how people gather a metric for gauging a players leadership skills and then are happy to draw a conclusion to it. I am neither here nor there on how good or bad a leader is because I have no idea how it is quantifiable. He looks like a bit of a crap leader but the manager is also crap and peddling a shite style that will never get the most out of his squad.
I've seen varying degrees of pointing, marshalling, bollocking, leading by example, spurring the team on with positive play. Last season, especially there were a few key moments in the middle of the season where he was driving us on from the 10 or even the midfield position. Does that make him a great leader? I don't know. Ultimately if the playing group respects him and gives him and the manager 100% on the field and he keeps that going.. Then I guess he is a good leader? Or is he? I don't know, I just wanted some clarification.
Ultimately if the season is in the shitter for all manner of reasons and you're saved by a log floating by do you worry about getting shit all over yourself? Or drowning in toilet water?
"He's not a leader" he might not be, I still have no idea how you can come to that conclusion. It is a matter of one opinion against another. Which is fine.
leaders are supposed to lead by example, no? Lets flip it round, tell us the qualities you see
Leaders can lead in all kinds of ways. I'm not the one questioning his leadership here, not would I to be honest. I don't think there is a reasonable fan metric that they can point to and claim it as great leadership. Except the main ones calculated at seasons end. Winning trophies as captain and setting an example of hard work or high standards on the training paddock. All noise out of the camp says mainly that he's a good leader. I'm happy to trust the gaff and the playing group on that one.
Honestly, I think his leadership qualities are massively overrated. If we are going to base on what "reports" say, that his fellows players think he is a solid captain, we might as well believe anything. Surely, all players are meant to speak positive about their captains to the media. What we need to see is a captain on the pitch. As much as United fans hate Liverpool, Chelsea and City, you only need to watch 15 mins of one of their matches and you can instantly point out who the captain is on the pitch, in Gerrard, Terry and Kompany, without spotting the arm band. With United, after 90 mins, It's hard to tell. Only Smalling edges it these days. In the first couple of weeks in the season, you would have thought that Schweinstiger was the captain on the pitch and that is how obvious it should be.
What we need is a captain on the pitch and honestly Rooney is not a captain on the pitch IMO. He might talk a good game in the dressing room but so does LvG too but on the pitch they are the most passive leaders I've ever seen, except when it comes to arguing with the refs on the pitch. We need a real captain, we need a new captain not a motivational speaker.
What we need is a captain on the pitch and honestly Rooney is not a captain on the pitch IMO. He might talk a good game in the dressing room but so does LvG too but on the pitch they are the most passive leaders I've ever seen, except when it comes to arguing with the refs on the pitch. We need a real captain, we need a new captain not a motivational speaker.
As much as he has declined he is still better than all but Martial. I'd rather have Rooney over Mata Lingard Depay Rashford Herrera Fellaini Young.
Terrible performance from our so called Captain. How dare he..
Oh wait.
Oh wait.
About his supposed leadership qualities, United were not pulling up trees back in the 80s but Bryan Robson was still well regarded by the fans for his performances. You can't say the same about Rooney. If anything, Smalling (earlier in the season) and Martial have been the standout players despite the team's performances.
I try to refrain from criticising his performances..but can't help it.. Have to say against West Ham he did alright and made all the players around him look awful.. He kept bypassing players around him like Gerrard used. It might make him look good but to the detriment of the collective. He was the playmaker for goodness sake and you're tasked to make others look good.
That's not leading by example.. It's him trying to hug the spotlight. Any other leader would have kept the ball rolling on the floor and driving it into their 18 yards. Not floating the ball out wide and asking the rest to cover the miles.
That's not leading by example.. It's him trying to hug the spotlight. Any other leader would have kept the ball rolling on the floor and driving it into their 18 yards. Not floating the ball out wide and asking the rest to cover the miles.
yes, this is the annoying thing. Nobody else does these long balls, its like he has license to do them despite a manager who is obsessed with not giving the ball away, yet gets heaps of praise when one or 2 are successful
Rooney is one of the main reasons why United won't be in the CL next season.
First, he was incredibly poor in the first half of the season, arguably our worst player, and contributed zero points in that periiod. That must be the first time in United's history when the main striker fails to win a single point for the team over 4-5 months of football. Amaizing shitness. Apart from January, he has scored only 2 league goals all season.
Iheanacho scored 8 goals in 7 starts and 750 min., Rooney managed 7 goals from 26 starts and 2320 min. Rashford's goals to min. ratio is far better than Rooney's too. Previously unknown youngsters have put him to shame.
Second, we didn't buy a top experienced forward because of Rooney, despite selling 3 experienced strikers in RVP, Chicha and Falcao and also ADM. Small wonder then that we scored only 46 goals in the league, despite signing a top talent in Martial. By comparison, we scored 62 league goals in the previous season.
United won't fare much better next season if Rooney starts in most games again. City, Chelsea and Liverpool will probably do way better than this season and we will struggle to make the top 4 again if we rely on captain fantastic to deliver the goods.
First, he was incredibly poor in the first half of the season, arguably our worst player, and contributed zero points in that periiod. That must be the first time in United's history when the main striker fails to win a single point for the team over 4-5 months of football. Amaizing shitness. Apart from January, he has scored only 2 league goals all season.
Iheanacho scored 8 goals in 7 starts and 750 min., Rooney managed 7 goals from 26 starts and 2320 min. Rashford's goals to min. ratio is far better than Rooney's too. Previously unknown youngsters have put him to shame.Second, we didn't buy a top experienced forward because of Rooney, despite selling 3 experienced strikers in RVP, Chicha and Falcao and also ADM. Small wonder then that we scored only 46 goals in the league, despite signing a top talent in Martial. By comparison, we scored 62 league goals in the previous season.
United won't fare much better next season if Rooney starts in most games again. City, Chelsea and Liverpool will probably do way better than this season and we will struggle to make the top 4 again if we rely on captain fantastic to deliver the goods.
Last edited:
Leadership is not something you can apply "metrics" to.
There are natural leaders of men like Keane or Terry or Adams who enjoy being the alpha-male and organising troops however much they can do in a fast paced sport like football.
And then there are those who aren't so naturally inclined at all but garner respect through their footballing prowess. Like, say Messi at the world cup, Xavi for Barca (after Puyol) or Giggs sometimes for United. These are usually players who get the captaincy because there's no proper captain in the team but because of the standard they set for the club, it works.
The second category isn't ideal but a pre requisite. No matter what, the captain should set the example for the team, squad and club in general. If it's by their footballing quality, then good, if it's by their footballing quality and ability to organise and lead, then even better.
Rooney is evidently not a leader (category 1) and has never been. He's always been a shy not very articulate bloke who plays on instinct and heart. He's always been more bulldozer than commander. So that part of his (lack of) leadership skills is evident from anyone watching our games. Or from the fact that, despite being at United and being very important to us, he's only got the captiancy once every respected, successful senior player was out the door. He's a "leader" by default if there is any such thing.
But the issue isn't that Rooney isnt a leader, you can't always have a great one, but rather that he fails on the pre-requisite (category 2), which is of setting the standard for everyone else. If he has been doing so, he's been setting a really really low one. When the captain with such a big status in the side (musht alwaysh play), stinks up the premier league for half a season, and is otherwise average to good at best, then what sort of example does that set for the club in general? Not a very good one.
There are natural leaders of men like Keane or Terry or Adams who enjoy being the alpha-male and organising troops however much they can do in a fast paced sport like football.
And then there are those who aren't so naturally inclined at all but garner respect through their footballing prowess. Like, say Messi at the world cup, Xavi for Barca (after Puyol) or Giggs sometimes for United. These are usually players who get the captaincy because there's no proper captain in the team but because of the standard they set for the club, it works.
The second category isn't ideal but a pre requisite. No matter what, the captain should set the example for the team, squad and club in general. If it's by their footballing quality, then good, if it's by their footballing quality and ability to organise and lead, then even better.
Rooney is evidently not a leader (category 1) and has never been. He's always been a shy not very articulate bloke who plays on instinct and heart. He's always been more bulldozer than commander. So that part of his (lack of) leadership skills is evident from anyone watching our games. Or from the fact that, despite being at United and being very important to us, he's only got the captiancy once every respected, successful senior player was out the door. He's a "leader" by default if there is any such thing.
But the issue isn't that Rooney isnt a leader, you can't always have a great one, but rather that he fails on the pre-requisite (category 2), which is of setting the standard for everyone else. If he has been doing so, he's been setting a really really low one. When the captain with such a big status in the side (musht alwaysh play), stinks up the premier league for half a season, and is otherwise average to good at best, then what sort of example does that set for the club in general? Not a very good one.
LVG has often stated he likes the way Rooney switches the ball from side to side. That is part of his Philosophy.
...
The forum rate our forwards as follows this season (MotM awards in backets):
Rashford - 6.4 (4)
Herrera - 5.8 (1)
Mata - 5.7 (4)
Young - 5.7 (1)
Lingard - 5.5 (1)
Depay - 5.4 (3)
Rooney - 5.4 (2)
Fellaini - 5.1 (1)
I'd go along with that in terms of performances. So unless we're banking on Rooney dramatically improving after 3 poor seasons (despite age being against him), or the players you mention getting worse (despite them all being younger, with the majority very young and still improving), then I'm not sure what you'd base that on, Fellaini aside.
Apart from Fellaini, I'd have every one of those instead of Rooney. That's before taking into account his salary, his age or his personality.
There is a huge bias against Rooney on this forum. He has had a poor season but I personally think he's a much better level than all but Martial. That there all on 5. Says a lot to me though.
Granted it looks nice when it comes off, many don't. Then LVG complains we don't keep the ball enough. The philosophy also calls for quicker passing to catch the opponent out, those lofty balls that take an age to come down and be controlled serve little against half decent sides
the club currently is full of contradictions on and off the pitch
I can imagine that.Unfortunately it tends to work a bit better as an attacking philosophy when you switch the play faster than a wheelchair user. Rooney just plods around mostly and slows everything down - great if we were 3-0 up but when chasing the game it's just moronic and a rather blunt tool.
Haha I am not joking either, I remember he specifically stated he was pleased with "Rooney's ball switching" when asked how he did in midfield, saying his philosophy is to move the ball on 1 side, then quickly switch to the other and take advantage of the space. Obviously we never do it properly though.
Unfortunately it tends to work a bit better as an attacking philosophy when you switch the play faster than a wheelchair user. Rooney just plods around mostly and slows everything down - great if we were 3-0 up but when chasing the game it's just moronic and a rather blunt tool.
Nah - there's an equally huge bias against Mata, Young and Lingard on this forum; all of whom have outperformed Rooney.
I have no idea why anyone would want a player who's clearly on their last legs, on a huge salary and who has been steadily faltering from an already mediocre level for the last 2-3 seasons.
Very few attacking players have played well this season (Martial & Rashford), but Rooney has still managed to be visibly worse than Lingard, Herrera & Mata.
I'd be selling Fellaini as the most urgent priority, then I'd be selling Rooney and then I'd be looking to loan out either Depay or Lingard (provided we could get a few attacking player's in). Mata and Herrera in my view have done just enough these last 2 seasons under awful circumstances to be given another year under a better manager; plus we can't and shouldn't get rid of 6-7 attacking players.
Rooney as captain shows what we are lacking. There is no fighting spirit. I love Smalling and DDG, but they are too kind - probably great chaps, but they don't rile up the others. For me, Evra was our last player who played with his heart on his sleeve, with that intensity, that never say never attitude, and that no matter we will always fight for a win. Even when he was just a little bit shit he had that fight in him. Rio had the same - nobody is yelling at one another anymore, nor are they giving praise to those who do well either. Rooney spends more time around the ref than he does in the opposing penalty box. It's like he is trying to carbon copy Scholes and Keane, but he missed the essentials and only caught the Youtube reels - Scholes' long range passing and Keane having a go at the ref.
I cannot for one moment beleive there's nobody at the club who thinks his time is up and he should be moved on.
Imagine we fail to invest in midfield because of some delusion that he will be an excellent midfielder?
Imagine we fail to invest in midfield because of some delusion that he will be an excellent midfielder?
Imagine? No need for that. It's more than likely. We're probably planning our transfers to build the team around him.
I'd bring back Evra in a heartbeat and trade Rojo, Lingard and Depay in the process.
I would most certainly not.
Why?
I can see what you say but have to disagree. Rooney for me deserves a chance under a new manager more than Mata, Herrera or Lingard. He was our best outfield player under Moyes he's been poor under LVG but so has most attacking players. I don't see the sense in loaning Lingard as his age is not great for that I'd keep him as a squaddie or sell.
So now the season is all but over, we are at the find excuses for this season and a new position for next season stage of the cycle. Apparently the reason all those posters predicting a 25+ goal season were wrong is entirely down to lvg and not our prossie loving captain being utterly shit for two thirds of the season, and next season we will all see what a marvellous midfielder he will be. I'm sure we have been here before?
You think he hasn't been declining since 2011 but it's all managers fault?
Well, Rooney was a bit shit already in Fergie's last season. He had a very good first half of the season under Moyes (more like 2-3 months than an the entire first half of the season but never mind) and poor in the second half of the season. It was the same in LVG's first season: good first half of the season with 8 (!) league goals and then crap second half of the season.
When was the last time when Rooney was good over 5-6 months, let alone over a whole season? 4-5 years ago, I guess. It's not about the managers, it's about Rooney. He's been unable to play consistently well for years. If it was only about LVG, Rooney wouldn't have had such a productive month of football in January. This month alone busts the myth that the reason for his poor performances is the manager.
Besides, it's not exactly true that LVG makes our forwards look worse than they actually are: RVP and Falcao were finished. By contrast, Martial has had a great season, despite being only 20 y.o. and coming from a poorer league. He's scored as many goals as Rooney in the latter's debut season at United in a far less attacking side while playing mostly on the left. And he will probably add a goal or two in the next two games.
Wow.
Because it is just a collection of votes from fans who are biased to the club, it isn't built on analysis or curbed by a median line in which the data is collected in a controlled manner. I have no real problem with it as a metric to gauge the Caf's opinion on the players as long as certain caveats are attached to it and that it isn't being used to back up definitive arguments to do with the judgement of certain players. There are obvious bias flaws that run through the system.
If we're blaming LvG for Rooney's performances then all the players should be given another chance.
Which is exactly what we should do...
- Status