Westminster Politics

[Ekkie Thump]

So Labour voted for a ceasefire, and SNP didn't because they were politically upset.

I must ask do you think the SNP are getting death threats for this?

If Labour had done the same with the SNP motion, voting against due to perceived diplomatic damage of prejudging war crimes but didn't get to vote on something they were comfortable with you don't think this wouldn't be made out to be pro genocide and MPs would be threatened ?

They were upset because their democratic rights as an opposition party were curtailed and handed to Labour. They were denied the right to vote on their own motion - one that yes, used more forceful language. Those in the country (many) that agree with the content of that motion were also denied a vote on it. In the process and as a byproduct constituents were denied the ability to see where their representative's opinions lay. Democracy was not best served.

Now, MP's may well have been threatened. That's intolerable. Police should look into it. Ultimately, though, it shouldn't undermine the way the Commons executes its democratic duties; nor should MP's be able to hide behind threats of violence as a way for them to sidestep having their views placed on record through a vote.

Labour voting against the SNP motion would not be the same thing because, and I want you to understand this, the SNP did not vote against the Labour motion and it wasn't Labour's opposition day. If Labour had voted against the SNP motion they would still have got to vote on their amendment if the Speaker had determined they go second. If it was a Labour opposition day then they should get to vote on their motion first. If it passes then hard cheese to the SNP.

 

[DanH]

They were upset because their democratic rights as an opposition party were curtailed and handed to Labour. They were denied the right to vote on their own motion - one that yes, used more forceful language. Those in the country (many) that agree with the content of that motion were also denied a vote on it. In the process and as a byproduct constituents were denied the ability to see where their representative's opinions lay. Democracy was not best served.

Now, MP's may well have been threatened. That's intolerable. Police should look into it. Ultimately, though, it shouldn't undermine the way the Commons executes its democratic duties; nor should MP's be able to hide behind threats of violence as a way for them to sidestep having their views placed on record through a vote.

Labour voting against the SNP motion would not be the same thing because, and I want you to understand this, the SNP did not vote against the Labour motion and it wasn't Labour's opposition day. If Labour had voted against the SNP motion they would still have got to vote on their amendment if the Speaker had determined they go second. If it was a Labour opposition day then they should get to vote on their motion first. If it passes then hard cheese to the SNP.

It would have broken convention anyway if a Labour amendment had been selected. If it had been followed, the choice would have been between between the SNP and Conservative motions.

 

[Ekkie Thump]

It would have broken convention anyway if a Labour amendment had been selected. If it had been followed, the choice would have been between between the SNP and Conservative motions.

Yeah I get that. It's the selective use of convention that bothers me. Like I think we're best served in this instance by allowing as many opinions to be debated as possible, so I'm not that bothered that convention was broken to allow a vote on a Labour amendment. I'd rather they bring their own motion on their own day but....fine. What troubles me is that this undermined the integrity of the day by undermining the SNP's rights. Had the Speaker continued his break from convention and made special allowance ensuring that the SNP's right to a vote on their own proposition was preserved then I wouldn't really care.

Maybe the latter isn't under his power or something?

 

[Pexbo]

im not sure what this is getting at? if it is a dig at me pointing out the narrative against muslims - when it comes to the prevaricating around calling for a ceasefire, then i would suggest its actually quite offensive, and it makes my point, as no one would get away with saying similar if the concern was anti-semitism / lack of support for Israel re the 7th Oct attack / the fate of the hostages.

Sorry pal only just seen this. Not a jibe at you at all, It was a reference to thousands of children dead and more being killed every single day along with other innocent civilians and all this shower of shite can do in the House of Commons is work out how a bill calling for a humanitarian cease fire can be manipulated into being an attack on them personally. It’s utterly depressing.

 

[Superden]

Sorry pal only just seen this. Not a jibe at you at all, It was a reference to thousands of children dead and more being killed every single day along with other innocent civilians and all this shower of shite can do in the House of Commons is work out how a bill calling for a humanitarian cease fire can be manipulated into being an attack on them personally. It’s utterly depressing.

Ah, sorry, i jumped in at the deep end. It is odd that there is such a grave threat to the MPs - which has dominated the news agenda today but were not to be told about it, weve just got to take it on their word. And yet last night bombing on Rafa intensified. its so bloody depressing.

 

[Murder on Zidane's Floor]

Again, it's odd that for someone who doesn't think he decides international law he seemed more than keen to state he believes it doesn't apply to Israel and even more keen to ensure parliament wasn't given a chance to vote in such a way to express that it did yesterday.

And the excuse now is that he has to say and do that otherwise people would say things about him. But one day, feck knows when, he'll decide he no longer believes countries (well, one particular country anyway) get a mulligan on war crimes.

Yeah, these two paragraphs, pure gibberish

 

[Murder on Zidane's Floor]

The same James Heartfield who claimed that israelis have every right to lay siege to all the palestinians, as Israel is at war with them, and so have have no obligation to feed them...

This is why I dont understand Starmers position, unless he is completely supportive of Israel's actions, hes always going to be targeted by the Zionist lobby. and the likes of the Daily Mail will lap it up. So why not stick to his principles, instead of trying to fudge things.

Targeted a lot less than Corbyn which basically nukes his entire opposition and electoral chances.

Principles? Pfft they're what you hold when you have feck all influence and power.

He needs to get elected first.

Every, I swear to god, everything else comes after.

 

[Dobba]

Yeah, these two paragraphs, pure gibberish

That's more like it.

 

[Tibs]

Shambles.

100% not voting Labour.

 

[SalfordRed18]

Shambles.

100% not voting Labour.

Were you ever?

 

[711]

James O'Brien has just summed it up

The SNP are mad that their name isn't on it
The Tories are mad because their political trap was outplayed
Corbyn fans are mad because Starmer got a win

They all want to call for a ceasefire and are just mad because of politics

I think that's true as far as it goes but you have to add that Starmer has miscalculated and handled it badly. As has the speaker.

Personally I think there are times when the best way for a leader to deal with substantial dissent in their own party is to allow a free vote on what is before them, no whips. I get that leaves them open to accusations of weakness but that's a lesser problem.

 

[Tibs]

Were you ever?

I’ve been saying/thinking no, but at the back of my mind I thought they could win me back.

Not now.

 

[Sweet Square]

Having to get asked 3 times on national tv if you threatened the speaker. Just another day of sensible politics!

 

[Eplel]

The entire parliament walked out on account of it being suspended at Johnson's request.

I can't do 5 pages of this thread, but will 18 pages in a thread devoted to it do?
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/government-will-attempt-to-prorogue-parliament.450174/

Compare your contribution to that thread with your meltdown today, and you have your answer.

 

[Murder on Zidane's Floor]

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[Dobba]

Compare your contribution to that thread with your meltdown today, and you have your answer.

That the monarchy is an useless pile of shit and that thank goodness we picked Tories over Corbyn? Hey it's also me in 2024.

 

[TheGame]

UK politics - look at our shitshow

US Politics - hold my beer.

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[4bars]

UK politics - look at our shitshow

US Politics - hold my beer.

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I can't laugh much with the level of PMs in my country. But where the feck do you find yours? Johnson, Truss and Sunak... good lord.

 

[Mr Pigeon]

I can't laugh much with the level of PMs in my country. But where the feck do you find yours? Johnson, Truss and Sunak... good lord.

You know that politics in this country have gone to shit when you can look back at David Cameron and think "he was more ministerial than the folk who came after him", and he was a bullying prick of a man.

 

[Badunk]

God, she's good. From pork markets to the deep state, she sees things that others don't.

 

[Vernon Philander]

That the monarchy is an useless pile of shit and that thank goodness we picked Tories over Corbyn? Hey it's also me in 2024.

What would Corbyn have done materially worse at since Dec 2019 til now?

 

[Dobba]

What would Corbyn have done materially worse at since Dec 2019 til now?

feck knows, but everyone seems delighted that we've had the Tories instead - especially the current Labour front bench.

 

[CassiusClaymore]

UK politics - look at our shitshow

US Politics - hold my beer.

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I look at her and there's just nothing between her ears at all is there? Perfect puppet to whoever fills her bank account. feckin Manchurian Candidate with the IQ of a sock puppet.

 

[Maticmaker]

I think that's true as far as it goes but you have to add that Starmer has miscalculated and handled it badly. As has the speaker.

There is a point of view that he handled it perfectly. If , Starmer did influence Hoyle and that headed off a clash with a number of his back benchers... and then with the Speaker talking the heat, then that's a master-stroke, or he's just a lucky bas****, either way bodes well for a PM in waiting.

 

[Dobba]

There is a point of view that he handled it perfectly. If , Starmer did influence Hoyle and that headed off a clash with a number of his back benchers... and then with the Speaker talking the heat, then that's a master-stroke, or he's just a lucky bas****, either way bodes well for a PM in waiting.

Absolutely. My first thought at looking at the bare faced racism of 'Islamists are controlling Parliament' this morning was what a genius Starmer was for launching that wrecking ball at the first domino.

 

[Maticmaker]

Absolutely. My first thought at looking at the bare faced racism of 'Islamists are controlling Parliament' this morning was what a genius Starmer was for launching that wrecking ball at the first domino.

Is he becoming (or has he always been)... 'a wolf in sheep's clothing'... our Sir Keir?

 

[Pexbo]

Is he becoming (or has he always been)... 'a wolf in sheep's clothing'... our Sir Keir?

16 word post and you still manage to get something into quotation marks

 

[Dobba]

Is he becoming (or has he always been)... 'a wolf in sheep's clothing'... our Sir Keir

He's simply a desperate man happy to throw as many people and communities under the bus as necessary to save himself from looking like he endorsed Israel dishing out collective punishment. He'll be delighted that it turns out the real people to blame for the farce in the Commons this week are those pesky Muslims again.

 

[Maticmaker]

16 word post and you still manage to get something into quotation marks

Glad you noticed, keep reading please but would prefer comments on the content rather than the grammar.

 

[Maticmaker]

He'll be delighted that it turns out the real people to blame for the farce in the Commons this week are those pesky Muslims again.

In the GE it won't do a lot of his candidates much good in some seats; unless he's counting on swinging a few disillusioned Tories (with bias) going his way in seats that would benefit... whats lost on the roundabouts is gained on the swings*
Definitely a wolf our Keir

(* for @Pexbo ... no quotation marks )

 

[Berbasbullet]

In the GE it won't do a lot of his candidates much good in some seats; unless he's counting on swinging a few disillusioned Tories (with bias) going his way in seats that would benefit... whats lost on the roundabouts is gained on the swings*
Definitely a wolf our Keir

(* for @Pexbo ... no quotation marks )

Managed to get your classic italics in though.

 

[Maticmaker]

Managed to get your classic italics in though.

Prize Cigar for @Berbasbullet .... well, spotted

 

[Murder on Zidane's Floor]

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[Solius]

UK politics - look at our shitshow

US Politics - hold my beer.

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The absolute state of her. The fact that she's even parading herself about again after so publicly shitting herself is ridiculous in itself.

There is zero shame or accountability anymore. You can be consistently wrong and made to look like an idiot and you will just keep getting work.

 

[Bert_]

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As soon as she turned up at that Ultra Tory conference thing it was clear as day she was going to persue a career as a right-wing shill. You don't need any skill or talent, just recognition and social media followers. As long as you repeat whatever the hive is thinking. Easiest gig a morally corrupt person can get.

 

[Bert_]

Saying that, you still need people to know who you are if you want people to book you.

 

[Murder on Zidane's Floor]

Ref Hoylegate

 

[Camilo]

Bunch of silly nonsense, arguing away as if anybody in the wider world gives a shit what the UK government thinks about Israel.

Political points scoring gone nasty, and for some reason some members of the public think it matters.

 

[Dobba]

Ref Hoylegate

"All of this is open to criticism"

Unless you tweet it at me, in which case I'll block you.

 

[Shinjch]

James O'Brien seems to have started to embrace the "footballification" of politics that he used to be so dead against. If the shoe was on the other foot and Sunak or Johnson pulled what Starmer did during that debacle there is no way his analysis would be in any way similar.