Westminster Politics

[africanspur]

we are in the middle of a pandemic, and an NHS union comes out and demands a 12.5% raise, and threat of a strike. Perception is opportunistic and tone deaf.

let’s wait and see - but that’s going to get a lot of backs up.

we will have circa 5.5% of the population unemployed when furlough ends - I’m not saying the NHS should be happy with a 1% raise - but for a significant proportion of people their opinion will be “be thankful you have a bloody job”.

My point is, what difference does it actually make?

If the public support the nurses getting a payrise, what are they going to do? If they don't support it, what are they going to do?

The reality is, most people have too much on their plates, pandemic or no, to get too involved in matters which don't particularly impact on their daily lives.All the public support in the world means very little, as the junior docs found out a few years ago.

And people will always have opinions like that. I had a management consultant of all bloody people a few months ago telling me what was ruining the NHS was locum rates for doctors and nurses. The fecking cheek of this woman.

 

[Sweet Square]

New Tory ads just dropped

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

New Tory ads just dropped

you don’t think that some people will think that?

taking my comments out of context, and quite a cnuty thing to do.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

My point is, what difference does it actually make?

If the public support the nurses getting a payrise, what are they going to do? If they don't support it, what are they going to do?

The reality is, most people have too much on their plates, pandemic or no, to get too involved in matters which don't particularly impact on their daily lives.All the public support in the world means very little, as the junior docs found out a few years ago.

And people will always have opinions like that. I had a management consultant of all bloody people a few months ago telling me what was ruining the NHS was locum rates for doctors and nurses. The fecking cheek of this woman.

if we start getting serious threats of strikes, or even strikes then let’s see what the reaction will be.

I agree, most people have lots on their player not to give a shit either way. But this could escalate.

my point is more that this could harm perception of nurses, given the situation everyone finds themselves in - pretty different to the junior doctors scenario.

 

[Sweet Square]

you don’t think that some people will think that?

Three-quarters of the public support a permanent pay rise for nursing staff.
The general public overwhelmingly support a 10% pay rise for nursing staff, according to a new poll.


A recent YouGov poll, undertaken on behalf of Nurses United UK and shared with NursingNotes, asked the general public if they believe nursing staff should receive a pay rise.

The news comes as the Royal College of Nursing (RCN), Nurses United, and other healthcare unions submit evidence to the Independent NHS Pay Review Body (NHSPRB), the organisation that advises the Government on NHS pay.

Three-quarters (75%) of those asked said they supported a permanent 10% rise for nursing staff while 79% said they supported annual pay rises above the rate of inflation.

Just 8% of the public said they were totally opposed to the idea.

https://nursingnotes.co.uk/news/wor...t-a-10-pay-rise-for-nursing-staff-finds-poll/

 

[Sweet Square]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

fair enough.

you still took my comments massively out of context.

I am surprised by the result to be honest.

would be interesting to see if the public supported a strike.

 

[africanspur]

if we start getting serious threats of strikes, or even strikes then let’s see what the reaction will be.

I agree, most people have lots on their player not to give a shit either way. But this could escalate.

my point is more that this could harm perception of nurses, given the situation everyone finds themselves in - pretty different to the junior doctors scenario.

I'm not sure we're disagreeing on the fundamental point here.

You're saying 'wait to see what the reaction is'. I've not said the reaction is going to be great. I'm sure the reaction would be unsympathetic, my fundamental point is who cares? It won't impact on the outcome of industrial action.

And I'm sure some doctors and nurses love the respect they get for the jobs they do but fundamentally it doesn't pay for the bills. As I've said, I got loads of respect for being a doctor in Australia for instance (as did the nurses), I also got paid very well for what I did and that was everyone's expectation there. People there are also paid for the amount they work, whereas it seems to be expected in the NHS and by some members of the public that we're a bit of a charity at times.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

I'm not sure we're disagreeing on the fundamental point here.

You're saying 'wait to see what the reaction is'. I've not said the reaction is going to be great. I'm sure the reaction would be unsympathetic, my fundamental point is who cares? It won't impact on the outcome of industrial action.

And I'm sure some doctors and nurses love the respect they get for the jobs they do but fundamentally it doesn't pay for the bills. As I've said, I got loads of respect for being a doctor in Australia for instance (as did the nurses), I also got paid very well for what I did and that was everyone's expectation there. People there are also paid for the amount they work, whereas it seems to be expected in the NHS and by some members of the public that we're a bit of a charity at times.

I’m sitting on the fence! I’m not sure what the reaction to a threat of a strike will be. I personally think it would be damaging, and having worked For the NHS, I would also question whether workers themselves would support such action at this time.

I do think that the public reaction has an impact. We disagree on that.

 

[F-Red]

My partner is an OT and has just finished working at a field hospital and the amount of times she came home an absolute mess because the stress she/everyone are under was way too much.

Same here, my other half is a combination of community and hospital based in podiatry, and even before the pandemic they simply don't have the head count to prioritise their service. If it's having an affect at that basic level of service, then it's all reflective as it goes up the priority of care. A 1% pay rise will be a technical cut if the forecasts for inflation is correct. In fact, since 2010, average nurse pay has fallen by 7.4% in real terms (taking inflation into account).

Anyone working in a hospital environment will tell you how the last 12 months has been like, and the challenges even before the pandemic, and when posters like @MU655 calling out that nurses feel sorry for themselves, and a pay rise is 'entitlement' is so far wide of the mark, and nothing more than an ill-informed, armchair opinion.

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

This is the issue for Labour to drive home. Betrayed the nurses should be the first thing every spokesperson says from now until the election. If the govt capitulates and increases the offer. Then Starmer won the pay rise for the nurses Boris the Betrayer tried to steal from them because the NHS is not safe in Tory hands. The offer is terrible given what they have been through and the public will remember it but only if it is ingrained in their memories by constant repetition.

 

[Maticmaker]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Not bullshitting for a Decade, its more like since the abolition of the Gold Standard (by the US in 1973) which is why Gordon Brown sold off more than half our gold reserves some years ago (around the Millennium). Short term debt has to be repaid (as the name implies)the long term 'trillions' debt goes on the 'never, never' pile in a room somewhere deep in the vaults of the Bank of England, until 'quantitative easing' kicks in.
Need more money Sunak, print your own!

 

[Maticmaker]

The remain campaign was a shambles but as we've said before when the Brexiters were moving the goal-posts continuously* and all the arguments disproved then it went back to the start again and went round in circles for years and it still continues.

I've still no idea what they've won though, and they don't seem too happy with it either.
So Sunak has the short-term Covid problems and then the real long-term Brexit problems to deal with. Although he'll probably be gone by the next election as life gets much more difficult in two or three years time (or sooner if the trade deal with the EU is not ratified).

The problem Sunak has is that he can't make provision for the Brexit fallout as it would be admitting it was a mistake**.

*Didn't need to, they were on a different pitch playing by different rules, 'Quidditch' probably!

**He doesn't have to, nothing will go back to how it was after Covid, its the 'great excuse', lucky man Sunak, ready made excuses!

 

[esmufc07]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[MoskvaRed]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Trump lost so Farage’s stateside gravy train has run its course. With Brexit done it’s also harder to rort money from gullible English “patriots”. Time to cash in his chips. Thanks for helping to wreck the country Nigel.

 

[Munkehboi]

Do nurses really deserve a pay rise just because they are doing their job? They chose the route and actually get paid quite well. The average is thought to be 33k. That is hardly a pittance.

They also get overtime payments over 37.5 hrs per week. So, it isn't like they aren't getting compensated.

Surely, those going into nursing etc. understood that long hours is a very real possibility? I mean it is logical considering it is about people's lives.

Whilst they are complaining about not getting a big enough pay rise people are/have lost their jobs. The government can't just go and give a massive pay rise for them doing their jobs, particularly with what is happening.

I'm a full time band 5 nurse and I make substanially less than 33K even with enhancements. Nurses working in London certainly get paid more in line with higher cost of living but the majority of nurses in the UK do not live and work in London.

The majority of NHS trusts to not get overtime payments either. Possibly in community and other more niche settings but not in hospitals. Working long hours is expected and sometimes when things go wrong, many a times at the end of your shift - you stay beyond your contracted hours to help. Often the day is so busy we do not have enough time to finish all our jobs and documentation so we have to stay behind. We dont get paid extra for this as we don't claim it back and are not expetced to. We can opt in to work for NHSP and work extra hours on bank shifts and the majotirty of nurses do because you can bump up your pay but you are working beyond 50 hours a weeks in most cases. The short of it is, we do not get compensated.

I don't think nurses in general are complaining about the 1% payrsie. It's not even been mention worthy at work this week. None of us have actaully batted an eyelid to it. We have had a pay freeze for clsoer to a decade prior - it's nothing new to us plus we had a tiny payrise recenetly - the have essentially desentzitised us to it. The unions claims of 12.5% are completely deluded and out of touch with the real economic crisis and in general reality - even as nurses we feel the unions are out of touch with the job itself. It's basically a bunch of old nurses who couldn't hack being a nurse on the shop floor with a sense of deluded justice and they can shout very loudly into multiple platforms of media to try and get their way.

Strikes are less likely to take place as nurses will not go on strike if they are working. I've spoken to people who are confusing the doctors striking and nurses striking as the same thing - it simply isn't. If the majortiy of nurses left their patients on wards to strike, I'd put good money on that alot of patients will deteriorate and/or die. As nurses we would not allow that.

What we really want is a safe working environment, with the tools to do our jobs properly instead of constantly facing cuts and staff shortages. It's not rocket science but accroding to our gorvnement it's too expensive and would certainly cost more than a 1% payrise for us all.

 

[TheGame]

This is disgusting:

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

This is disgusting:

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

In terms of being opportunistic and politicising this?

 

[Grinner]

The world is a dangerous place.

 

[TheGame]

In terms of being opportunistic and politicising this?

Yep.

 

[MoskvaRed]

This is disgusting:

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

He’ll put more police on the street. Hopefully the type of police who don’t get arrested on suspicion of murdering women.

 

[Mogget]

He’ll put more police on the street. Hopefully the type of police who don’t get arrested on suspicion of murdering women.

That was my first thought

Ignoring how tasteless his tweet is, it doesn't even make sense to use this particular case as an excuse for being tougher on crime.

 

[Adisa]

This is disgusting:

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Look at this fool. The suspect is a police officer.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

Yep.

It’s in very poor taste.

i certainty want a change from Sadiq. No idea who this guy is, or that he a Tory until I looked him up.

 

[esmufc07]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[The Corinthian]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[Sweet Square]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[NinjaFletch]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

I'm shocked to see that our right wing posters, who are so ordinarily vexed about free speech issues, so quiet on an actual free speech issue.

Next you'll be telling me they don't care about free speech at all.

 

[sun_tzu]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

It does seem badly drafted...

So if somebody does an act... causing serious harm (including death) to the public that they intended to happen

they can receive a sentence of not more than 10 years

I mean I'd have thought that should potentially carry more than 10 years

 

[711]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Delete annoyance and it seems fine to me.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

The description of actions as fascism is overused, but surely in this case it is accurate?

 

[Fluctuation0161]

Delete annoyance and it seems fine to me.

Causing "distress" or "inconvenience" are fine to outlaw? At a protest?

I wish people understood how many of the things we currently take for granted came about due to protest.

 

[Grinner]

I'm shocked to see that our right wing posters, who are so ordinarily vexed about free speech issues, so quiet on an actual free speech issue.

Next you'll be telling me they don't care about free speech at all.

Maybe they haven't seen it. Why don't you tag them?

 

[NinjaFletch]

Maybe they haven't seen it. Why don't you tag them?

Because we all know their arguments are disingenuous, and I'd rather conduct acupuncture on my own eyes that spend and more of my life talking to them about it.

 

[711]

Causing "distress" or "inconvenience" are fine to outlaw? At a protest?

I wish people understood how many of the things we currently take for granted came about due to protest.

It's not banning protest is it? I might be wrong, I'd change my mind if it is.

 

[mitChley]

It's not banning protest is it? I might be wrong, I'd change my mind if it is.

Effectively, yes. Hold a protest, someone gets "seriously annoyed" or "seriously inconvenienced" by it, then the protestor can then face up to 10 years in jail.

 

[Fingeredmouse]

It's not banning protest is it? I might be wrong, I'd change my mind if it is.

It gives them the leeway to effectively ban any protest they don't wish to occur, yes. Or, more accurately, arrest everyone who attends simply for doing so.

 

[Jippy]

Effectively, yes. Hold a protest, someone gets "seriously annoyed" or "seriously inconvenienced" by it, then the protestor can then face up to 10 years in jail.

Would be insane if someone could face up to 10 years' jail for something as subjective as someone else getting 'seriously annoyed'. Can that be extended to industrial action if there's a picket line?

 

[Maticmaker]

I thought there already was a law dealing with public nuisance... the Riot Act 1714?

Oh... sorry, someone's just pointed out it was repealed in 1973 (Statue Law Act).... Oh dear, 'the old ones' are the best! doesn't apply here!!

 

[711]

Effectively, yes. Hold a protest, someone gets "seriously annoyed" or "seriously inconvenienced" by it, then the protestor can then face up to 10 years in jail.

It gives them the leeway to effectively ban any protest they don't wish to occur, yes. Or, more accurately, arrest everyone who attends simply for doing so.

Ah right, it needs annoyed and inconvenienced taking out then, as well as the annoyance as I suggested. You would think there were enough laws to deal with the rest of it anyway, but who knows, the law being what it is. So ok, not a good proposal after all