No it doesn't. Half decent goalkeepers look even better in relegation fighting teams because they get to save a lot more shots.
9
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 45
- Goals
- 11
- Assists
- 11
- Yellow cards
- 1
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
- Status
As soon as Sanchez came in, Martial got dropped despite winning our player of the month award in January. That was not necessary at all and clearly showed Jose preferred big names over actual performances.
They played together when we lost to Spurs. Then a few days later there was a lot of rotation and Martial was only a sub (not the same as being dropped IMO as the game was a few days later and an easier game). Then both started away to Newcastle in another shite performance from everyone, and Martial missed a few sitters in it. Then didn't start in the FA cup, didn't start midweek against Sevilla, but started home to Chelsea. It's not like he got dropped right away. Sanchez with his reputation and being the level of player that he is will always be starting when fit in the hopes of getting him at his best. It's the other 2 spots that are up for grabs, and rashford, lingard and martial have all played a similar amount overall (120 minutes separating them for league and champions league games).
I firmly think Jose don't want to sell Martial. He is getting less playing time with two excellent players in his space. If he delays signing the contract extension or there comes a point where we need to sell to buy, the board may be pushed to make a sale. Anyway, i don't see any team making a huge offer for Martial anyway. He is quite raw and needs coaching.
Fair assessment. I think some of our fans and media have been a little unfair on Jose. Jose expects his attacking players to defend when needed, press the defense in the opposition half when we dont have possession. In Sanchez, he has that player if anything martial can learn a thing or two. People who say Martial would exceed in a setup like Pep's - have you seen how hard sane and Sterling work when they dont have the ball? constant pressing and blocking lanes when out of possession.
Martial is a great talent and has shown his brilliance, he needs to be more consistent and adapt and improve his all-around game. Either that or take the easy way out and go on to a league where he can amble around.
I don't follow West ham games, so i have no idea how he's doing.
Again, not true. He started 2 of the 3 after Sanchez signed (not counting the Yeovil cup game), and the one between the Spurs and Newcastle away losses was a home game vs Huddersfield where there was a decent amount of rotation anyway and was always going to be Sanchez starting on the left wing in his home debut. So yeah, he had 2 starts in the 2 more important games, didn't play the FA cup game then got dropped vs Sevilla, but then started vs Chelsea in the league. He hasn't been frozen out at any point and it's not even like he was treated harshly. He lost form and had starts then subs to turn it around like he was doing earlier, didn't have much of an impact, so he's more on the bench now until he works his way back in. Just like Rashford did. Just like Lingard has done. It's normal.
On Sanchez - He's a new signing, and a world class player at his best. A proven world class player. He's going to be starting whenever fit because he just needs time to get to his best, as it's never easy signing in January. Did it destabilize our side? Maybe, but then again, we were hardly stable or consistent before he signed, so I think it's more just natural losses of form from the attackers (just with someone to blame now). But it's not like Mourinho just prefers big names over actual performances. Sanchez was always going to start, then it was between rashford, martial, lingard and mata for the other 2. He tried both martial and sanchez in the first 2 important games after Sanchez signed, both were losses and looked unbalanced (more due to midfield IMO, but anyway).
No. He played full 90 vs spurs and Newcastle. and started vs Chelsea. He is rotated more now that we have a lot of options
What happened to "don't fix what isn't broken"?
Martial was doing very well on the LW. As soon as Sanchez signs, he got shifted to the RW where he is nowhere as effective. Of course his performance will drop. The same happened with Rashford. Does brilliantly against Liverpool off the left and then inexplicably gets moved to the right for Sevilla where he again struggled. To accommodate Sanchez, our youngsters are just not getting the consistent starting positions required.
You are referring to me saying to keep Rashford on the left and not move him to the right? It's not exactly the same thing when you sign a player of Sanchez' calibre anyway. We signed him and played him in his favoured position on the left. I don't like Martial playing on the right either. I don't think any of them will be as good on the right. Mata is the best option for that side IMO and we have relatively stuck by that throughout the season.
More baseless opinion. Here's what we know. They have shown no willingness to sell or exchange him for better players. They are obsessed with marketable players and Martial is the club's most popular player along with Pogba. They recently opened contract renewal negotiations. These are facts not stories or opinions
Did you believe this story when the press ran it?
https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/man-united-board-members-admit-12094870
What about this one?
https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...anchester-united-shaw-barcelona-bale-14463056
Or the story that the board were looking for Intel on Jose's treatment of KDB before deciding on Shaw's future
As a rule of thumb any report that implies to know what our board is thinking should be taken with a grain of salt
We actually don't know that, what you say in your next post applies to this, we don't know if anyone actually tried to get him through an exchange, that information come from the press who most of the time aren't in the loop when it comes to transfers.
Sanches came then Martial had to move from his best position to accomodate Sanchez. A move that has clearly not paid dividends yet.
I was eager for sanchez to come because I thought he was going on the right wing. Signing him to replace Martial in his best moments of the season is exactly the type of errors Jose has been making all season.
Well we don't know but wasn't it widely accepted that one or both of Inter and Arsenal enquired about Martial during Perisic/Sanchez discussions and the club refused?
Well neither have shown consistent form before Sanchez signed. What was it blamed on then? Sanchez is a proven world class player and just needs to settle here and we're hoping next season he can get back to his best. Both Martial and Rashford will have done very well to reach peak Sanchez level. You don't just start a youngster endlessly because they have potential. They have to force their way into the side and show form consistently. And yeah, they got moved around here and there. That shouldn't be that big of a deal. They're youngsters, this is what happens with them. Ronaldo got shifted around constantly when he was younger and would occasionally not start while he was developing. Until they prove themselves worthy of being the main men, they won't get special allowances in the side. They're being used as much as their form dictates basically.
And for people who blame us signing sanchez as some sort of bad thing - that's idiotic. What, so we should just put Martial and Rashford in the starting 11 every single game despite form, despite being young and not fully developed yet, and having so much to learn, they should just start at Manchester United even though they don't deserve to yet or haven't proven themselves to be untouchable? Come on. Being in and out and training that mental hardness and determination is a big part of the development of young players. They'll always turn out better if they force their way into a team with their own performances rather then being handed a starting spot and that's it. Sanchez is a world class player and will show it in time here. Our attack lacked a world class attacking talent. Simple as. Sucks for Rashford and Martial that they primarily play in the same position, but it's up to them to adapt or force Mourinho into changing systems to fit them in alongside Sanchez.
Sanchez barely played on the right wing since leaving Barcelona (and there wasn't at his best). At Arsenal, his best role came playing up top or in a free role basically in the attack, often drifting in from the left. He doesn't play as a typical winger anyway, and more is just a 10 that drifts inwards when he starts wide. He can and has started as a 10 a few times this season already for us, so it's not like Martial or Rashford can't start alongside Sanchez. If they get form, they'll start games and make Sanchez the #10. If Lingard is in better form, he'll start as the 10 and Sanchez will go on the left wing. What we do know, was that simply martial/rashford, lingard and mata behind lukaku wasn't good enough and needed to be improved. Sanchez if he finds his best form, will be that improvement, and hopefully martial/rashford can find their best alongside him.
Have to admit, it's a little funny how everyone is basically blaming Sanchez for Rashford and Martial being inconsistent. Because they were consistently world beaters before Sanchez came, right? I love them both and was one of Martial's biggest fans and defenders on here. But Martial has been treated pretty normally. When you have the competition that we do, you need to perform otherwise you'll be rotated as a young player. Martial. That's all there is to it. Maybe Martial did suddenly lose form because we signed a world class player. Or maybe it was just as what happened to him every other time he would lose form, standard young player inconsistency. It's not like he was world class against Brighton in the FA cup game where there was no Sanchez. Games like those are where he needs to come in and show he deserves to go right back in the starting 11. If he has an ineffective performance, why would he start the next game?
I think he'll do better with a different coach than Mourinho, but just how much better is up for debate. I'd prefer he played elsewhere, as I don't think Mourinho can get the best out of him (or many of his current players for that matter). I don't believe he'll ever realize his potential to its fullest, he just doesn't seem to be as driven as a player like Mbappe or even Rashford even if he’s more talented than the latter.
I think Mourinho is an outdated coach in his tactics and is a poor developer of talent. However, he would keep United in the top 4 with a team to his liking and he could even upset and win the Premier league within the next couple of seasons. I really think it’ll be in both parties’ interest to call it a day and let Martial go somewhere else, use the money to buy a proper need for the team whether it’s on the right wing, in defense, or the midfield.
For all the complaints about Martial, he has more than pitched in this season. His inconsistency and poor form at times is not singular to him alone. It is a constant symptom of this entire team as a whole under Mourinho. There aren’t any players not named Lingard who are consistently playing above or even at their usual level. We can blame the players or we can blame the guy in charge of getting the best out of them.
I think this is a solid team that’s missing a few players. So you could hold on to Martial and other talented players and find a coach that gets the best out of them. Or you give Mourinho his clear out and hope he manages to get better results even if we know the team will be as entertaining as watching paint dry.
I think Mourinho is an outdated coach in his tactics and is a poor developer of talent. However, he would keep United in the top 4 with a team to his liking and he could even upset and win the Premier league within the next couple of seasons. I really think it’ll be in both parties’ interest to call it a day and let Martial go somewhere else, use the money to buy a proper need for the team whether it’s on the right wing, in defense, or the midfield.
For all the complaints about Martial, he has more than pitched in this season. His inconsistency and poor form at times is not singular to him alone. It is a constant symptom of this entire team as a whole under Mourinho. There aren’t any players not named Lingard who are consistently playing above or even at their usual level. We can blame the players or we can blame the guy in charge of getting the best out of them.
I think this is a solid team that’s missing a few players. So you could hold on to Martial and other talented players and find a coach that gets the best out of them. Or you give Mourinho his clear out and hope he manages to get better results even if we know the team will be as entertaining as watching paint dry.
So you have pointed out that since Rashford and Martial are inconsistent and that Sanchez is world class so it's right for us to play Sanchez. I agree with the logic but has Sanchez been consistent enough for us since joining? Has he been putting in the consistent world class performances for us? Sanchez signing has broken what little consistency and fluency we had in the first place. Pogba, Martial and Rashford are three players who were in quite decent form until Sanchez joined who have been affected. It's also resulted in a rather pathetic CL exit too.
It would be a real shame if he left. If he was playing in an attacking team we would see a lot more like Sterling for example. Martial has the quality to play for the biggest clubs no doubt. It's ridiculous to leave him out of the team for not tracking back or running through brick walls. Since when has tracking back and running through brick walls been relevant at Manchester United when it comes to attacking players? If 18 year old Ronaldo had played under Mourinho he'd have been dropped for not tracking back. We've always given our attacking players freedom to express themselves and showcase their talent so why are not doing the same now? Do Sane and Sterling track back? Does Salah track back to the extent he becomes a RB? He is a talent that needs to be developed. It's not fair on him when he showed and proved at the start of the season that he can play with Mourinho's demands and show a willingness to adapt to be suddenly dropped for Sanchez. He won 3 of the 5 player of the month awards up and till then. I swear to god if Mourinho lets him go and signs Bale I'll be fuming. We have one of the best attacking talents in World Football and if he leaves it'll be worse than KDB and Salah situation. People talk a lot about how bad a mistake it was to let them two leave but this would be on another level. If Martial was playing for City or Liverpool I know for sure I'd be scared to death coming up against him so something isn't right if we can't find a place for him.
Last edited:
First of all - rashford was in horrendous form and basically in a rut of not even getting subbed on. His first goal and good performance in ages came in Sanchez's debut vs Yeovil. Martial was in very good form but then lost it. It's not like he was exclusively played anywhere but the left wing, he lost form wherever he was picked. Good moments, but just not imposing himself on games wherever he was (same as always for him). That's not influenced by Sanchez, that's just him going in and out of form.
I agree Sanchez hasnt been good yet, but it's still early days. He's been here 2 months, had good moments and bad moments as you'd expect from a new signing in January especially when the team isn't some super attacking side. The point is when you sign someone like that, you just have to persist with them until they show their best. Though you only persist if they are still putting in the effort (if not then it's a whole other problem). Sanchez's attitude has been fine and has worked his ass off throughout, so it's worth sticking through a bad run.
The difference in that, and martial/rashford being rotated after a bad run is that Sanchez is a proven world class player, while they are young players. He's earned himself some lee-way with his reputation and the player we know he can be, plus with all the valid excuses like him just signing for a new club and learning his teammates. It's why January signings are never ideal and rarely instantly click. And you cant just sign Alexis Sanchez and not play him... so yeah.
On Pogba - was always somewhat inconsistent, but he definitely felt less valued after or something, but the key thing here is how pathetic Pogbas performances were. He's a midfielder. Not an attacker like Sanchez. Pogba stopped working hard and was putting in embarrassing performances so much that he got dropped for a random youngster for Champions league knockout games. Maybe Sanchez affected him, but that's a huge negative for Pogba and nothing you can blame Sanchez for. If Pogba gets upset that a bigger and better player comes in the club and resorts to those embarrassing performances, then he can feck off. Hopefully the last game was something he'll build off of and stop fecking about.
Anyway, for me its hilarious people blaming one player for others forgetting how to do the basics and not working hard when Sanchez is the one busting a gut out on the pitch every time.
I dont wanna lose Martial cos of Jose. Jose will not be here in 2 years time, but Martial will have matured into a different player by then.
If we sell him, we will regret it the same way Chelsea do with KDB now.
Yes. Martial could have another 10 years at this club. There's no way Jose is staying for more than another 2.
Agreed....Martial could be here another 10 years....JM might be here for another 3 years....
I wouldn't bet money for or against either scenario.
Martial wasn't effective because of his own doing though. He had opportunity to impress still with some fairly basic stuff, which anyone should still be able to do on the other side, but he failed to do so. He might not be able to cut in as well on that side but should still be able to do something and not suddenly turn into a bad footballer.
Both are highly inconsistent players so are likely to do this wherever anyway.
What's annoying is that Martial is supposed to be learning. Having opportunity to play and improve on the other wing should be seen as something to grasp and enjoy. Instead people make excuses because he's not doing so.
He's a young player and young players are in and out of the team. He should be gearing up towards nailing first choice in a few years when Sanchez is older.
Not true. Rashford missed 2 games via injury and there have only been two games over the course of the season that he hadn't come off the bench for. One of them was due to us needing to use the third sub on another position due to Fellaini getting injured.
I do agree with you though about Rashford not being in good form prior to the Sanchez signing.
I just think that we could have gone about it in a better way. The left-hand side wasn't an issue at the time of his signing and although we possibly may not have got the best out of Sanchez, his ability to play on the right (as seen with his stats and time at Barca) should have been utilised, as Martial was our best attacking player (form-wise) at the time.
Initially, it made sense to at least try AM on the right as Sanchez in top form is a better player than him on the left. The issue was the fact that, even after it was clear that Martial wasn't a good fit on the right and Sanchez wasn't in the best of form, we didn't think to make Sanchez accommodate the team rather than the team accommodate him. Even if a top-form Sanchez may not be as good on the right, I'd rather an 8/10 from him on the right and 8/10 from Martial on the left to a 10/10 from him on the left and a 5/10 from Tony on the right.
Obviously, the world doesn't centre around Martial (as you said, there are options like Mata) and maybe Sanchez on the right might not have worked at all, but I felt his treatment wasn't fair considering his recent contributions to us and there should have been more of an effort to get him and Sanchez into the same team. I can't imagine this sending a positive message to him.
I really feel for Martial I must say. He responded brilliantly to the Jose "tough love" and was the in form attacker at the end of January, scoring many key goals.
Two things completely derailed his season. The signing of Sanchez and the change to a 4-3-3 because "Pogba can't play in a 2". It basically meant Martial could only compete for 3 positions in the team and 2 of them are taken by Lukaku and Sanchez.
So, Martial is competing with Mata, Rashford and Lingard for one position.
It is such a shame. When Sanchez was signed, I was really excited by the United attack. It's amazing how badly it has gone since.
Two things completely derailed his season. The signing of Sanchez and the change to a 4-3-3 because "Pogba can't play in a 2". It basically meant Martial could only compete for 3 positions in the team and 2 of them are taken by Lukaku and Sanchez.
So, Martial is competing with Mata, Rashford and Lingard for one position.
It is such a shame. When Sanchez was signed, I was really excited by the United attack. It's amazing how badly it has gone since.
Why all this sadness for Martial? Mata, Rashford and Lingard have to fight as well, and that’s what they are doing. Lingard has been our best AM and Mata our best option on the right. Should anyone really feel like Martial is owed a position in the team?
Not sure about anyone else but I feel for him because he did earn his spot in the team and lost it through no fault of his own. He was moved from a position he had earned for more privileged players who hadn't earned it.
The tough love is all well and good but when the player performs you need to reward him.
Martial has earned nothing at Manchester United.
He earned player of the month. That's probably why he won it.
Wonderful.
He must stay. The potential is a Henry-like player and that must be retained over Mourinho’s psychopathic risk-averse approach to football.
Great insight. Very enjoyable discussion.
I've had no issues with the "tough love" approach with players like Martial and Shaw who are extremely talented but need to get stronger mentally to show they can perform at a club like United. I had no issues with Jose leaving Martial out when he was inconsistent and even treating him more harshly than less talented players.
That is all fine as long as it's a means to an end to unlock the world class potential. There has to be an end game and positive reinforcement when those players produce. Shaw is arguable either way but Martial really produced the goods and was actually vindicating Jose's approach with some key performances. But he was still moved to a different role and dropped shortly afterwards.
That is why I feel for Martial and why Jose's decision to move him to accommodate Sanchez is so puzzling. He will find it much harder to justify the "tough love" approach if he can't point to a single player where it has worked.
Apparently a month of alright games out of the last season and 3/4 means his season was derailed because a better player came in and got put in their best position. Even in those games the return masks fairly average performances with a few nice moments.
Wouldn’t read a lot into that honestly. Martial gets lots of votes due to his **** following even if others performed better.
Name a better player than him in our attack that month or all those other months he won the award. I mean are you trying to imply that his good form during those months were just nonsense and fanboys talks ?
sometimes people try too hard to be different. He gets votes when he plays well and gets goals/assists which he has quite a few of this season compared to his teammates.Plenty criticise him when he doens't play well too.
- Status