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Westminster Politics
- Thread starter altodevil
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Nina Warhurst interview with Boris Johnson , everyone should watch.
He's utterly fecking odious.
He's utterly fecking odious.
Democracy and referendums are 2 very different things. One of a mere tool of the other. By conflating the two, you simply display your wilful ignorance.
Democracy as we have defined is that the House of Commons decides on our behalf. That’s their job.
House of Commons does not support BrExit. Hope that’s dealt with your false claim of ‘scuppering democracy’.
In fact the only action of note that attempted ‘scuppering democracy’ was the proroguing of Parliament.
Brexit is falling apart. You know as well as I do that it won’t happen. You can deal with that gracefully or smash up buildings and beat up MPs and get arrested. The choice is yours.
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Totally agree. It is reckless. The actions of a group of sociopaths.
Exactly. Another referendum would solve nothing, only divide even more.
No deal Brexit was not voted for. It was actively dismissed by the leave campaign as near impossible. German cars etc etc.
Boris Johnson trying to force through a no deal Brexit by illegally bypassing parliamentary democracy purely so he can claim a victory during a GE campaign. Then refusing to accept any wrong doing. Refusing to acknowledge his colleagues concern that his language and actions are encouraging death threats. Saying that the best way to remember a murdered MP is by enacting something she stood against. That's the very definition of divisive.
I do not buy into this "both sides" argument being made for Johnsons governments action the last 24 hours.
I can see both sides of brexit debate, leave or remain. But not like this.
That horse has already bolted. The country is bitterly divided, further fuelled by Johnson/Cummings using the Trump playbook. A second referendum would at least have legitimacy in that it would be based on defined alternatives (EU membership vs some variant of May’s deal) rather than EU membership vs [insert your own wish-list here]. And given I have yet to hear a single, plausible benefit of Brexit after three and half years (now even Leave don’t bother pretending there are advantages - it’s just a simple majoritarian argument that they won by a tiny margin over 3 years ago), you can’t seriously expect half (and now over half) the country to rollover and acquiesce in the economic, diplomatic and moral downsizing of their country.
Yes, there are two sides and several shades inbetween. However, the narrative that Parliament (and the hard Brexiteers voted down the deal too, including the current PM) and the judiciary are against the people is being actively peddled and developed. They are prepared to burn the structures of this country's constitution and institutions. That is a deliberate and cynical strategy to inflame to win an election at all costs. No nuance and they know what they're doing. There is no equivalent on the other side. This, to be clear, is mot to suggest that there are not behaviours away from the Govt benches I take issue with but there is not nothing to compare with this government's combative strategy.
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It’s an amazing twist of logic to suggest that asking the public to confirm their vote is somehow divisive and undemocratic. Actually it’s not, it’s just stupid bollocks.
Either Brexit is the will of the people or it isn’t. If you ask the people again and they don’t want it, then it isn’t the will of the people.
And if they do want it?
It'd divide less than trying to strong arm Parliament and the judiciary whilst calling everyone not on your side a treacherous capitulator.
Well a 2nd referendum can be used to confirm what sort of Brexit the people want.
Then they get it. Though hopefully it will be made clear at that point what Brexit actually means, as opposed to yet more promises of unicorns being used to lure voters into ultimately backing a hard exit. Even still, they're certainly far more informed of the realities of Brexit now than they were previously.
You think that taking the only meaningful vote in 40 years and tossing it in the bin will result in LESS division than just executing the verdict as promised? What are you man smoking?
Then on their own head be it, but let them decide.
So it could be a referendum on a variety of exits?
Common mkt 2.0
Mays deal
Boris’ made up deal
No deal
Etc
But they promise to go through with it this time? Really really pinky promise?
Do not believe a single word they say...
https://www.thejournal.ie/nigel-farage-no-deal-bbc-fact-check-4632847-May2019/?amp=1
Yes.
There are definitely a few yeah but not many. Most are just trying to employ common sense and ensure we don’t crash out with no deal.
Yeah right now would be a great time for some maturity and compromise. Unfortunately the current PM and his party have decided to do the opposite. Act like petulant children, spout divisive rhetoric, stir up animosity and try to bypass parliament and force through a no deal which no one voted for.
We should leave the EU and respect the referendum result but in the least damaging and disruptive way.
Yes I assume the purpose of any 2nd referendum would be to break the current deadlock and once and for all get a definitive answer on how and when we should leave the EU.
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Eurgh. Cummings just looks like a smarmy cnut.
I would accept that. I would like parliament to somehow narrow it down as I’m concerned all the votes will be split and no deal would walk it. A couple of the soft brexit proposals weren’t too many votes away last time out
Someone will take a swing at him one day
I disapprove of what Boris said, but we should all defend to the death his right to say it.
Nah I’m fine with not defending populist wankers who are contributing to inciting violence thanks.
Got a link? Can’t find it anywhere.
Then God help us all.
Or some higher power that probably doesn't exist.
I think it depends on the question you ask. If all options are on the table and it's asked in a non-cynically fashion I think most would be comfortable.
The problem with that is it would need around 10 options on a preference vote system that simply wouldn't happen.
Where would an interested person see it?
Do you think the Westboro Baptist Church should be protected by free speech? Genuinely curious, because free speech has never been an absolute right anywhere, it’s purely about where you draw the line. Personally I’m fine with drawing that line comfortably ahead of a place where you can put other people’s livea at risk for political gain.
Why 10? Leave without a deal, leave with whatever deal has been negotiated or remain seems to cover all options that are actually possible at this point. Obviously with the leave options as a second question so you don’t split the leave vote.
And these comments are all much better than Boris’s language
And Kentonio, there are populist wankers on both sides of the Brexit debate, it’s just that both sides are so blinkered they don’t see it.
So what's your line then? A lot of us find our line crossed by what we see as him recklessly whipping up the far right 'traitor' narrative that has already killed one MP.
I spoke to someone a few days ago who told me 'Jo Cox got what she deserved and you will too'. I expect you'd think that's too far but there's a good gap between those two that includes many things that I don't know how inclined to defend to the death you'd be.
This is the dumb thing about Brexit. There being multiple mutually exclusive ways of doing it, that can't be decided upon between them, is seen as a factor in its favour. (Not aimed at you, just at this general point that's raised about any referendum.)
People that insist that "it was already voted on in 2016!" should be able to pick a version and put it up against the opposing option of remaining. This isn't a fix or a cop out, it's just the reality that remain is straightforward to execute, and shouldn't be disadvantaged by the fact that leaving means something different to each of the various groups of leavers.
I'm not the Prime Minister.And these comments are all much better than Boris’s language
Hope this helps
There are a number of reasons why I now support a second referendum.
1. There is and has been deadlock since the previous vote. Because of the stupid way it was handled it told the government we voted to leave but not what kind of Brexit. Now, we all know so much more about the options we can vote on what kind of Brexit, or maybe not.
2. Leaving the EU is going to have a bigger affect on the younger generation because they will have much longer to endure, or maybe enjoy the consequences. So some of those who were too young then will be eligible now.
3. It is obvious that the government are completely swamped with the shear scope of the problem and they need our help to resolve it one way or the other. And I believe that the country needs to come together and only this can give us some form of harmony.
So, Brexit, soft or hard vs Remain ... hasn’t that been done somewhere before?
This is not the House of Commons and the posters on here are not MP’s. Boris can say what he wants in private, but when he’s in the House of Commons, or in any other public situation, he should act responsibly.And these comments are all much better than Boris’s language
And Kentonio, there are populist wankers on both sides of the Brexit debate, it’s just that both sides are so blinkered they don’t see it.
Assuming the various possibilities are actually realistic and would be acceptable to the EU - only one of which thus far being the actual Withdrawal Agreement currently on the table.
The atmosphere is similar!
No wonder I stay out of this usually
I’ve had a really quiet day so have got mixed up with this. I’ve kept my responses respectful but not all replies have been afforded the same.
I’ll head back over to the more amiable bunch calling for Ole to be sacked