Hoping the rest from football and a proper pre season can help see Martial get back his form
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I couldn't disagree more. I'm not going into each case one-by-one, but outside of Lingard (and even that's a bit of a stretch), I don't think Mourinho can take credit for any of the names you've mentioned. Herrera, Rashford, Valencia, Rojo and Jones are pretty much the same players they were last season IMO. Darmian and Romero is a stretch and maybe Lingard since he's gotten more games but he hasn't really improved much either in my view. That's not to say he can't improve them, but if there was any improvement it'd be easier to see it this upcoming season than looking at players like Bailly who were good from the get-go and just got here last season and claiming Mourinho improved him.
The same Herrera who went from being out of favour under LVG, whilst openly admitting his game was stifled/restricted by LVG, to becoming our player of the season, wasn't improved under Jose?
Also claiming Rojo hasn't improved from last year is nothing short of laughable. The majority of the Caf were asking for him to be shipped off. Going from that to being arguably our best defender this year, is an incredible improvement.
Valencia was good last season, but was prone to the occasional brain-farts, on occasion being caught out defensively etc. Those issues were all sorted out and he established himself as one of the best, if not the best RB in the league, an improvement.
Rashford and Bailly both started off the season well but went through dips in form, picking it back up towards the end of the season. Improvements can be made throughout the course of season, believe it or not. Towards the end of the season Rashford went from struggling to leading us to a Europa League trophy. It's obvious Rashford improved on his movement, his free-kicks etc.
Whether or not Lingard and Romero's improvements are down to more game-time is irrelevant, it's still an improvement, as you claimed he hasn't made.
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Herrera's treatment had nothing to do with his ability. I think everyone here wasn't that surprised that he ended up becoming so influential, his ability was always there but grossly mismanaged by LVG's tactics.
I didn't really express myself very well though, I think Mourinho has improved the team tactically (I can't pretend he had 0 impact) which has helped Herrera show his true ability (which even at the end of LVG's season, I don't think anyone doubted). When I talk about improving, I mean actually enhancing the player's ability beyond what he was previously capable of in his career without that manager. It takes time to see that kind of improvement from a coach, and sometimes patches of form can be misleading into actual development. There's many cases of players performing better post-Mourinho than when they were under him, so I still reserve my judgement and skepticism on his talents as a developer of talent until this second season, especially since he's struggling with a player who was one of Man Utd's best players before he got there.
This is why I'm really looking forward to this season for so many reasons, especially to see if Mou can actually get the best out of Martial (since I should probably get back on topic), and to see how the team as a whole can improve now that they've had a full season under him behind them.
I didn't really express myself very well though, I think Mourinho has improved the team tactically (I can't pretend he had 0 impact) which has helped Herrera show his true ability (which even at the end of LVG's season, I don't think anyone doubted). When I talk about improving, I mean actually enhancing the player's ability beyond what he was previously capable of in his career without that manager. It takes time to see that kind of improvement from a coach, and sometimes patches of form can be misleading into actual development. There's many cases of players performing better post-Mourinho than when they were under him, so I still reserve my judgement and skepticism on his talents as a developer of talent until this second season, especially since he's struggling with a player who was one of Man Utd's best players before he got there.
This is why I'm really looking forward to this season for so many reasons, especially to see if Mou can actually get the best out of Martial (since I should probably get back on topic), and to see how the team as a whole can improve now that they've had a full season under him behind them.
Euros performances I think took a knock on his confidence and his personal issues plus the whole shirt number thing probably affected him too much last season. I don't think he got a fair shake from the manager in terms of getting a run of games either. Hopefully the break and a good pre-season will see him back to his best - because at his best, he will hands down be our best attacking threat.
Also, it will be nice whichever side he plays on, he ends up getting better support - too often ended up being double marked. If he can have a fullback that can open up some space for him, he will flourish even more.
Also, it will be nice whichever side he plays on, he ends up getting better support - too often ended up being double marked. If he can have a fullback that can open up some space for him, he will flourish even more.
How can you say they are a million apart? Their philosophy is based on a possession style and are simular on many aspects.
I really doubt that with Martial it was only a second season syndrome, his case is the existing example of a bad man management from Mourinho, the manager was busy playing mind game with a 20 year old boy instead of trying to help him go through his problems; a stupid and ridiculous move from Jose, no wonder players such Lukaku and KDB opted to leave him to go and develop their football somewhere else and now he's buying them back for huge money.
Well say sir.
Everybody (apart from LVG) knew about Herrera's qualities from his time at Bilbao, Mourinho has nothing to do about it, and remember Jose started the season preferring Fellaini and only used him because the latter proved he was useless in midfield. Bailly was already one of the star and established players in his previous team, again no praise for Jose here. Valencia was already learning his trades as a fullback under LVG and was doing well, if someone to praise here, it's LVG and not Jose. Rojo was a good CB but used as a FB by LVG, he is useless at that position.
And how can you say Rashford has improved? I presume you didn't watch him under LVG, if anything, his overall game has regressed being mismanaged by Jose. Lingard is still the same player he was under LVG.
Dear @Regulas Arcturus Black, I am not a disciple of Pep Guardiola, I am just a guy who loves football, good and attacking football are my bread and butter because football is there to entertain the fans and not only about results; negative and soulless football we played last season under Mourinho is the reason why I never wanted him here and I never like any of his previous teams; I understand the reason Woodward brought him here but that would not make me an hypocrite and change my view about him like 90% of our fans did.Oh God, another one of these Pep disciples. How apt and predictable your username is
Weird that KDB had his poorest season at City last year then and that City won absolutely feck all, and that Pep nurtured pretty much zero youth.
If fecking Sane, Stirling & Jesus are included then might as well throw in Pogba and Bailly for Mourinho then.
KDB had a poor season under Guardiola but this happens to many players who can struggle to buy into a manager's philosophy, maybe the reason is that he's not suited to pep's philosophy.
And Pogba and Bailly were already star and established players in their previous clubs.
All the managers fault Rooney was shite as well? Least he put a shift in & didn't go missing when things weren't working for him.
How City play and LVG's United play are chalk n cheese. Attacking v ultra defensive possession based.
This is Martial's performance thread for the coming season. Take the irrelevant discussion elsewhere.
What does Herrera's qualities at Bilbao have to do with anything? The question was whether he has improved as a player. Jose came in, implemented a system which allowed Herrera to flourish. He had his best season ever with us, winning our player of the year. This was the same player who was not appreciated and struggling under LVG, that is improvement. Thus Mourinho improved Herrera as he has never won player of the year with us, nevermind been as influential for us as he was last season.
Bailly was an established player for Villareal, was hardly a 'star'. He was bought in as a prospect, which many on here stated as much when he was confirmed. Playing for Manchester United is a completely different kettle of fish. Also whether or not a player is a star at their club is irrelevant, they can still be improved. As Bailly was throughout the season.
Valencia was learning his trade, but hadn't mastered it. Do you not understand what the concept of improvement means? No-one claimed Jose Mourinho turned Valencia into a RB. Last season under LVG he was prone to brain farts, he would get caught out in posession, get caught out of position etc. which are all aspects of his game which haven't been as noticeable this season. He's had his best season ever for us at RB, so yes, improvement surely is visible.
Yes, Rashford has improved. His first season with us under LVG, he came in halfway through the season as an anomaly. No-one knew who or what he was. This season teams were aware of his abilities and acted accordingly. As a player he struggled, but he improved as he has slowly learnt to deal with that throughout the season. He has improved his free kicks and he has improved his movement. Not to add he's learnt how to deal with the pressure of what is expected of him as a Manchester United player. No player is going to go unnoticed forever, but players who learn to adapt to those situations have improved as players.
Edit: Derailing the thread though, best we end this
He certainly has all the tools but he just cant apply it well enough. This season will be very important for him I believe but competition is just going to be even higher.
I hope he's gotten over some of his personal issues and is determined to do well this season. He's got the talent but he just needs the right attitude to bring it out.
It's not really chalk and cheese, though. The possession play followed by LVG, Pep, Bielsa, Pochettino are essentially quite similar but with their own variations.
For e.g. Pep's and LVG are strict on the player's positioning, zones of play, creating overloads etc. but Pep usually gives the attackers more freedom in the final than LVG. That being said, Pep has really evolved from the style followed by him at Barcelona, which itself was heavily based on Cruyff's style.
Mourinho has shown before that his teams can play good flowing football when he wants to, also evident at some of our matches last season. Let's hope he brings the style as well along with the winning mentality this season because we have plenty of players capable of playing football that is pleasing on the eye.
Big season for him, has to prove that that first season wasn't an anomaly. If we sign Perisic I don't think it bodes well for his future here.
Grow some balls and show up again. I love the guy but he needs to step it up from last year.
He simply has to compete. He's signed for a top club.
I don't think Perisic has a hope of keeping Martial in form on the bench.
Big season as next season there will a another flood of new signings including I reckon Griezmann which will ultimately push him out the door if he doesn't nail down a starting position.
You are completely wrong on almost everything you said there; the only thing you are right about is that we're derailing the thread, let end it there.
On Martial, it'd be a miracle if he regain his best form under Mourinho. Here I really think that the problem is not coming from the player but the manager; at the end, it's the manager job to find better way and system to motivate his players, especially his best talents. If Lionel Messi struggles under another manager, I'd not question his commitment, I'd question the manager's ability to motivate him and get the best out of him; Martial was flying under LVG but struggled under Mourinho.
I'd like to think so, but this past season worries me a little.
Martial is one of the most infuriating players I've ever seen in red.
Coming in as di Maria's replacement and then scoring that excellent debut goal against Liverpool. I thought he was going to be our best player within a year. On his day, when he's up for it, he is absolutely untouchable. Against Watford at home last season he tore them a new arsehole. But too often he seems distracted or too put off by things. Not wearing his favourite number, or not playing central enough. I hope this season, he just puts his head down and tries to be brilliant. If he does, as soon as he gets his chance, he won't leave the team.
Coming in as di Maria's replacement and then scoring that excellent debut goal against Liverpool. I thought he was going to be our best player within a year. On his day, when he's up for it, he is absolutely untouchable. Against Watford at home last season he tore them a new arsehole. But too often he seems distracted or too put off by things. Not wearing his favourite number, or not playing central enough. I hope this season, he just puts his head down and tries to be brilliant. If he does, as soon as he gets his chance, he won't leave the team.
The fact that you disregarded every player I posted about, instead opting to talk about Martial (who I never even mentioned in my post) speaks wonders for your argument.
Comparing Messi to Martial is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read, as if either of them are in the same universe let alone being worthy of the same treatment. Pep couldn't find a role for Sanchez at Barca and shipped him off to Arsenal, a player far superior to Martial. You're living in la la land if you believe managers can implement systems to get the best out of every single player in their squad, especially when it's players he himself didn't even sign.
Your arguments frankly have no substance, instead resulting to nonsense about me being wrong, without providing a reason why and arguing about players I never even mentioned. All whilst comparing unproven youngters to arguably the greatest player to ever play the game. Have a word with yourself.
I'll stop replying now, would rather not get sucked into this nonsense.
Needs a prolonged run of games, the odd 20 mins or half of football here and there is not enough to set the world alight. Jose needs to give him a good 5-10 games in a row and assess how he performed thereafter. Given the potential, financial outlay and form we saw in his first season, this is the least we can do if we want to see him become a top player here. He has all the potential and imo if we do let him go next summer, he will find a way to the top somewhere else.
Think there's more to it than that tbh. He was given a run of games at the start of the season where he was playing poorly but continued to get chosen.
He just doesn't look like he cares as much, or isn't as hungry or something. Looks like he's distracted. Also people complain he should be given more freedom to attack but when he has he's more often than not been poor.
Hopefully it's just a matter of him not having his head in it and with proper rest and a break he's working hard in training to add more to his game. I'd be upset if he didn't make it here because he's a genuine talent.
We're in the Anthony Martial's performance thread and we decided to end the debate because we were derailing the thread, so I don't know why you're upset I talked about him in my last post.
Comparing Messi to Martial in this specific situation is not ridiculous because Martial was as important for us under LVG as Messi was special for Barca. Under LVG we all witnessed what an amazing player he was and then Mourinho came and immediately alienated the boy and did his best to shot down his confidence. Martial was an important player for us and our season would have been different have Mourinho did his best to motivate him; an inform Martial would have made us a title challenger seeing that that left wing was a big problem and seeing how scoring was one of the reasons we struggled.
I think the point is he needs to feel valued here, especially by mourinho so giving him extended game time is part of this. We've seen how Jose has his favourites who are picked for every game and never criticised, and obviously AM isn't one of them. The main point I am making is that he will never force his way into the team through limited opportunities and cameos, I just dont see him as that kind of player.
Ye fair enough, but he can't expect to be given constant good faith if he doesn't repay it with good performances. With the talent he had, if he applied himself to the best of his ability he'd be a sure thing for that position. Hopefully he gets his head down this season and improves his game so he can perform to the extent we all know he can.
I really don't get this 'getting best out of players' thing that keeps getting said on here. Why does a coach have to be blamed for a players poor form? Martial was given chance after chance last season but was looking so uninterested and a shadow of his former self, is Mourinho supposed to coddle him or something? Players are supposed to fight/earn their place in the team but anytime I come to the Martial thread I see people saying stuff like
blaming every other person except Martial for being poor. So he can't force his way into the team through cameos so lets just give him a whole season to play himself into form or something? Who the feck is he
Its subjective, some players will thrive off a cameo against tired legs, others will not. He's more of a fits and starts player who will be quiet but then produce that one moment of magic in 90 mins.
Also, I actually dont think he's the most confident player in the world and it's about getting that confidence back which will allow him to do the things we want to see i.e. beat his man and score goals. I think he has been mismanaged to a degree but of course it's on him ultimately to rediscover his form. Remember he's only 21.
Just a thought, any other team in the premier league would be having a muppet fest if they managed to prise him away from us, it's like certain fans are ready to give up on him and completely discard his first season, which I think is ridiculous.
If he stops worrying about his shirt number, stops having (ex)girlfriend issues, and starts listening to Jose instead of his agent, he'll be just fine.
Anthony Joran Martial
Dec 5, 1995 (21)
France
21
1,81 m
People are always quick to blame the manager but the reality is that Martial simply had a poor season considering his standards. It is as normal as teams winning and losing games. It had little to do with Jose or Deschamps. They both complained about exactly the same things.
One thing to recall is that Martial was not the only one who didn't hit his heights at all. We had a number of players like that but some of them picked up pace at various times. That was the main difference.
I agree with those who say it is up to Martial. He has had a poor season but he was put on the plane to the US. That likely means he has been given another chance. No more excuses. He has to pull himself up and show who he is. I don't buy the argument about the need for Jose to give him opportunities. Martial will have to TAKE his opportunities. We are talking about a big club here and not some feeder club. In the big clubs you fight for your opportunities against some of the very best in the game. Jesus took his opportunities and suddenly Aguero was sweating. In the big clubs being so young will always be a disadvantage but if you are really deserving of the shirt, you will get it because what matters most to the modern day big managers is winning.
One thing to recall is that Martial was not the only one who didn't hit his heights at all. We had a number of players like that but some of them picked up pace at various times. That was the main difference.
I agree with those who say it is up to Martial. He has had a poor season but he was put on the plane to the US. That likely means he has been given another chance. No more excuses. He has to pull himself up and show who he is. I don't buy the argument about the need for Jose to give him opportunities. Martial will have to TAKE his opportunities. We are talking about a big club here and not some feeder club. In the big clubs you fight for your opportunities against some of the very best in the game. Jesus took his opportunities and suddenly Aguero was sweating. In the big clubs being so young will always be a disadvantage but if you are really deserving of the shirt, you will get it because what matters most to the modern day big managers is winning.
Judging from the pictures we're seeing so far from the tour, he seems to be in really good shape. That, along with him crushing the tabloid rumors via Twitter, is a good start to the new season.
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Watching it on repeat like 20th time already
As far as I can remember, this forum was only willing to listen and accept the opinion that Martial was all to blame and Mou was blameless in his handling of Martial last season.
Whenever anyone tries to bring in anything questioning Mou approach in regard to Martial they were quickly shot down and this forum wasn't having none of such opinion.
People simple were far willing to accept that Martial just randomly turned to bad and all the blames were on him, not even how he was being handled or anything of sort. He had to take all the blame despite evidence showing that couldn't be any further from the truth.
So not really, people in here are actually quick to blame the players and absolve managers of any misteps, especially if these same managers are in their first season and we're all happy and willing to excuse any poor decision they make.
Wow, this escalated pretty quickly. From Martial's performance discussion to people slating Mourinho for his lack of man management.
If Lukaku wants to come back to United and work under Mourinho, the same Lukaku who most of people use as an example how Mourinho chases young talents, then surely it's not all Jose's fault.
I think Jose demands a lot and young undeveloped players can't keep up with Jose's demands. And that could be the case with Martial. Why don't we see any agenda against Rashford? Because of his attitude and work ethic. Anyway ... If I carry on this thread will go t*ts up and we won't be discussing Martial.
To me, everything starts from par. Everyone had over a month of vacation, well rested, no world cups, european cups and etc. Martial is on the tour from day 1.
There shouldn't be the question of "does he play during the tour?" as everyone will. Especially the first two games. If he focuses during fitness training and takes a step forward compared to other players and proves it during the first two games (I think he will play 30-45 min each of the first games), he will be elected to play versus Barcelona and Real Madrid and whoever else we play.
Martial has the perfect environment to have a break through season. He already had a full season with Mourinho and has a clear idea of his demands. Mourinho has said it in the media, that Martial possesses qualities he likes in a winger. Tony has had a good break, he's on the tour from day one. Lukaku is someone who could clearly explain why he wasn't Jose's first choice a few years back, but he's been chosen as our striker's target during this window. And if Perisic joins, Martial could have a much closer look to what exactly our manager is looking for in a left wide forward/winger. It's up to him to excel.
And I am backing him up, I think he will, he had somewhat positive end to last season, which surely has matured him and should be much easier to push it from here.
If Lukaku wants to come back to United and work under Mourinho, the same Lukaku who most of people use as an example how Mourinho chases young talents, then surely it's not all Jose's fault.
I think Jose demands a lot and young undeveloped players can't keep up with Jose's demands. And that could be the case with Martial. Why don't we see any agenda against Rashford? Because of his attitude and work ethic. Anyway ... If I carry on this thread will go t*ts up and we won't be discussing Martial.
To me, everything starts from par. Everyone had over a month of vacation, well rested, no world cups, european cups and etc. Martial is on the tour from day 1.
There shouldn't be the question of "does he play during the tour?" as everyone will. Especially the first two games. If he focuses during fitness training and takes a step forward compared to other players and proves it during the first two games (I think he will play 30-45 min each of the first games), he will be elected to play versus Barcelona and Real Madrid and whoever else we play.
Martial has the perfect environment to have a break through season. He already had a full season with Mourinho and has a clear idea of his demands. Mourinho has said it in the media, that Martial possesses qualities he likes in a winger. Tony has had a good break, he's on the tour from day one. Lukaku is someone who could clearly explain why he wasn't Jose's first choice a few years back, but he's been chosen as our striker's target during this window. And if Perisic joins, Martial could have a much closer look to what exactly our manager is looking for in a left wide forward/winger. It's up to him to excel.
And I am backing him up, I think he will, he had somewhat positive end to last season, which surely has matured him and should be much easier to push it from here.
It's his make-or-break season. If he doesn't perform and cement his place as a starter, I'd put money on him being gone by the end of the season.
^This is what I'm talking about. One post questioning Mourinho and you have a guy acting as if this thread has turned into a "let's blame Mourinho for everything" cesspool.
There is literally been no one who even suggested some of the blame should be pointed toward Mourinho beside me in this thread and we have a guy with a mini crisis because I questioned Mou handling of him last season.
Exactly my point in my previous post. Quick to shoot down anyone who dares question Mou.
There is literally been no one who even suggested some of the blame should be pointed toward Mourinho beside me in this thread and we have a guy with a mini crisis because I questioned Mou handling of him last season.
Exactly my point in my previous post. Quick to shoot down anyone who dares question Mou.
Don't see why it should be a make or break season. He'll be only 22 at the end of the season.
It's become a very common theme across the Caf, if we don't question him and just accept everything it can lead to complacency. I also agree with your original post, people were quick to blame Martial for every poor performance but credit Mourinho with great handling when he had a good one.
I feel some portion of what went wrong was not being given time to form an understanding with the LB as that position was being constantly rotated. If Shaw can nail that position down (and I fully expect him to) I think we'll see a very different Martial from last season with good attacking support from the left, too many times when playing with Darmian did he find himself isolated last season. People reference the game against Liverpool at home as his worst performance but it's worth noting he had 0 support from the LB position and often had 3 men surrounding.
The talent isn't in question but the mentality is, we'll see how he starts the season. Preseason means feck all except for stamina levels.
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