He needs an exceptional overlapping full-back who will be the threat for all the things he doesn't provide whilst he cuts inside and takes advantage of the chaos then provided.
Whether he's good enough to be accommodated is another matter.
21
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 44
- Goals
- 8
- Assists
- 3
- Yellow cards
- 8
- Status
Whether he's good enough to be accommodated is another matter.
I'm all for giving new & young players a chance to prove themselves for a season or two before a verdict is reached,
but from what I can gather, he had the exact strengths and glaring issues at Ajax.
To expect him to develop entirely new skillsets (i.e dribbling, passing incisively) while also adapting to a much tougher league....
up until some 3-4 weeks ago, I had more faith in him proving me and the rest of his doubters wrong.
Starting to get more and more skeptical now.
Being a one-trick pony is bearable when you're insanely good at your trick (Valencia for a short amount of time, Robben to an extent) that it almost doesn't matter that the defender knows what you're about to do- he can't stop you.
Antony is by no means difficult to defend agaisnt. quite the opposite.
I like his tenacity, his tracking back, his shithousery when it's not over the top...
that's something I'd be pretty happy with in regards to my CM, DM... never a winger.
This is actually very true. Antony was very good with MAzraoui behind him, as MAzraoui would overlap 10-15 times per match. Antony then had the choice to either play through Maz, or cut inside himself. That was an effective tandem for Ajax. Without Mazraoui, Antony was 30-40% the player he was with Maz. I suspect that is the version that you guys are seeing now, although I have to say I've seen far too little of United to make any hard claims.
I just don't see a final ball in his locker. His right foot is for standing on too.
He's going to be a problem for ETH going forwards I think as he's clearly his man so will keep getting picked but if he doesn't improve fans are going to get on his back about it.
We really shouldn't be spending that kind of money on anyone who isnt absolutely guaranteed world class. That should just be a given right now for where we are as a club. We can't afford to gamble 85m on the future when the current team is so lacking.
Harry Kane for 85m and you'd say well he is world class and proven so fair enough. Spending that amount on someone relatively unknown to most football fans playing in a poor league was a complete joke. We should have walked away and allowed Sancho / Pellestri to play instead. Maybe even kept hold of Amad if we had to.
He's going to be a problem for ETH going forwards I think as he's clearly his man so will keep getting picked but if he doesn't improve fans are going to get on his back about it.
We really shouldn't be spending that kind of money on anyone who isnt absolutely guaranteed world class. That should just be a given right now for where we are as a club. We can't afford to gamble 85m on the future when the current team is so lacking.
Harry Kane for 85m and you'd say well he is world class and proven so fair enough. Spending that amount on someone relatively unknown to most football fans playing in a poor league was a complete joke. We should have walked away and allowed Sancho / Pellestri to play instead. Maybe even kept hold of Amad if we had to.
Well this was always going to be the case, as long as the team is winning people are happy to turn the blind eye on poor performing players ("he holds the width", "we are better player with him in the team" seemed to be enough for quite a lot of people). But what happens when we actually need him to contribute offensively?
Antony being one of the least productive attacking players in Top 5 leagues has been the case for a while, he actually went downhill after freak of a start (3 goals in 3 games when the opposition didn't know what to expect and frankly he got quite lucky). That said, I think it's unfair to criticize him now as we were on the backfoot for 60' and he isn't the player who you keep on the pitch if you can only counter the opposition.
Possibly quite important to mention Ajax averages 67% of possession - this is almost 3% more than City. United average is less than 53%. That means there's no chance he will be overlapped 10-15 times per game by a fullback.
That brings us back to the question what was the business case to bring him here for almost 100million.
I did doubt him plenty even a couple of weeks ago, but now I just researched a bit more about his time at Ajax, watched some more detailed clips etc.
So for me it's not only about United suddenly stopping to win. I think that being reminded yesterday just how underwhelming Sancho is,
makes me also worry more about Antony. 2 of our supposed top wingers are not up to the task (and our striker is better at pressing than scoring).
It's alarming.
He seems to play better with AWB which is surprising but your both right he needs a true elite Roght back like Frimpong or Dumfries, confrontational but I’d sell Dalot to Madrid or Barcelona and bring one of them in to compete alongside AWB.
Well, well indeed.Well...
Perhaps I have been corrected, but the eyeball test tells me Antony has scored a few (not many, but a few) important goals. Did Alexis score a single goal for us that was either an equalizer or match winner?
Don't get me wrong...I definitely want more than a few key goals from any winger, especially a 70m winger, but all of us acknowledge that it takes a season for most footballers from a lesser league to adapt to the intensity of the PL. Alexis was already prem-proven, so to speak, whereas Antony is in his first season in the PL.
All I do is post my opinions without ever insulting anyone. If people get upset that I don't rate a player they like, that's on them.
And of course go conspicuously quiet when one of the players you don’t rate goes on a 4-month run of great form. I honestly wonder whether you celebrated when Casemiro scored that header against Chelsea.
I could only recall the two first (because coming back from 2 goals down is quite memorable), but I did some research:
Assisted equalizer + winner as we came back from 0-2 vs City to win 3-2.
Scored winning goal as we came back from 0-2 vs Newcastle to win 3-2 in injury time.
Assisted equalizer vs Bournemouth as we came back from 0-1 to win 2-1 in injury time.
Scored equalizer vs Tottenham as we came back from 0-1 to win 2-1.
Anyway, enough about Sanchez, I feel maybe he was disliked more for his 7 yachts a year income than his actual shortcomings on the field.
Let's take a look at how us not getting the right wing sorted has been a recurring issue that Antony prolongs rather than being the instigator (feels like its getting worse though):
Even if its his first season there's some massive strides that needs to be taken.
If he doesn't start taking on defenders soon he's basically just what you'd get if you ordered Mata off wish.com.
I could only recall the two first (because coming back from 2 goals down is quite memorable), but I did some research:
Assisted equalizer + winner as we came back from 0-2 vs City to win 3-2.
Scored winning goal as we came back from 0-2 vs Newcastle to win 3-2 in injury time.
Assisted equalizer vs Bournemouth as we came back from 0-1 to win 2-1 in injury time.
Scored equalizer vs Tottenham as we came back from 0-1 to win 2-1.
Anyway, enough about Sanchez, I feel maybe he was disliked more for his 7 yachts a year income than his actual shortcomings on the field.
Let's take a look at how us not getting the right wing sorted has been a recurring issue that Antony prolongs rather than being the instigator (feels like its getting worse though):
Even if its his first season there's some massive strides that needs to be taken.
If he doesn't start taking on defenders soon he's basically just what you'd get if you ordered Mata off wish.com.
Your broader thesis that we've been woefully short of what's expected at the RW position since Ronaldo 1.0 is very well taken. Valencia did a job, but after his ankle fracture was never the same force although he reinvented himself as a semi-decent RB. Alexis shoved off Martial, and we all ended up looking pretty moronic for bringing in an Arsenal reject -- but this one gets filed under the notorious "Jose was Right" thread. There was great hope for Greenwood, but it seemed to me he was being groomed as a CF of some kind. A shame we couldn't have the Mata of even five years ago as cover for Bruno.
Anyway, Antony has to develop more to his game than lining up his left foot for that killer shot. It's a killer shot, but the cat is out of the bag and he's not going to get many more free looks cutting in. It is easy for posters like us to demand this and that from a footballer but FFS he has to develop a right foot and he has to develop a move to his right for the cross or cutback pass. I don't demand much more than that from him.
Agreed
It's not just antonys goal and assist that are disappointing, his underlying numbers are much worse and that supports the eye test.
None of the people on here who are convinced by him have ever been able to offer any sight into what he can offer beyond hard work and the occasional goal
I do find it very surprising that pro footballers can so obviously be lacking at one specific, easily improvable aspect of their game play.
Sure if your decision making or general technique or trickery is bad then there's only so much you can do but a cross into the box with your weaker foot is so easy to improve that I don't understand how a pro can be so bad at it.
Did you say sancho
Antony on his bad day does more than Sancho. And Pellestri has to be slowly integrated. Antony is not a 85 million player but still our only rw player. For all his flaws, could reach 10 plus goal in all competition. Not that bad for a devut season.
I think ETH will double down on Antony this summer by giving him the overlapping RB he needs provided he can ship AWB or Dalot.
I’m easy with either, both have their positives and negatives, but maybe stick with AWB given he’s English, is now playing better and Dalot is OOC next summer.
There are a few links to Frimpong who looks perfect for this role.
Managerial indulgence. See Matic, Lukaku, Maguire etc.
I took a break from the forum during that time. I only really started posting again after the 7-0 because that was such a crazy experience.
Look, I've celebrated all of Casemiro's goals. He's produced some awesome moments. I'm just not a fan of midfielders who are wasteful in possession and weak under pressure. I'm gutted he's going to be missing games because of that red because he's our best midfielder even though it's not a particularly high bar.
I don't think that should have anything to do with my opinion on Antony, though.
That’s fair enough (and you’re right it has nothing to do with Antony), but posting an I-told-you-so post about Casemiro post LFC was somewhat questionable timing.
Can't remember the podcast just heard it on, but 0 assists this season. That's, erm, not what you want from a wide forward.
Sorry about that. It was bad timing but it wasn't intentional to wind people up, and I didn't intend on it being a "I-told-you-so" moment. It was just the first time in a while I had the urge to post again, and it was only because I saw @Kevin 's post rather than the thread itself because I wasn't looking at that thread; I was reading through his posts that I had missed during said break. My opinion on Casemiro has/had nothing to do with that game because it was such an anomaly.
Salah and Mahrez didn’t cost 100m at that age either. Thing is, I am not criticising him being largely underwhelming for us so far, he surely needs more time to adapt.
But when the club decided to overspend/fork out huge amount of money on a young player, they should have at least access more realistically what type of talent we are getting at. I am expecting a talented player who hasn’t quite up his game yet in terms of ends products/decision making or something, but turns out his is not so talented after all, just an average player in PL who is willing to put more effort on the pitch, which may not be a bad thing if it’s only a 40m signing instead.
So one has to question, why the club is willing to spend 85-100m on someone who is only worth 40m of talent, and a player who loves do 1 trick only as show pony but can’t actually dribble past any opponents? I mean, if I am not so good at dribbling, I won’t even attempt to try those tricks for nothing but just showing off you can do a trick! But we definitely buy that and willing to over spend huge amount on him, that puzzles me.
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Ok that's fair. At the end of the day, we all want the same thing, so let's cross our fingers and hope we can get through this difficult stretch. A top-4 finish would make such a difference to our ability to bring the likes of a De Jong, who would really take us to the next level.
It wouldnt surprise me if Sancho was sold in the summer as long as we could get someone to stump up 40+ mill for him. Hes still not the player Ole thought he was buying when he spunked 73 mill for. TH will want to get some big earning players off the books and his wage are ridiculous.
Antony will get at least another season I think, as he may just need one season to settle in and improve in the second. Drogba only scored 10 premier goals for Chelsea in his first season, is the best example of an attacking player I can think of, who took a season to get up to speed.
Antony will get at least another season I think, as he may just need one season to settle in and improve in the second. Drogba only scored 10 premier goals for Chelsea in his first season, is the best example of an attacking player I can think of, who took a season to get up to speed.
He’s going nowhere. He’s on enormous wages nobody else will pay him.
Agreed! I said this in a newbie thread but, despite our fatigue and injury crisis, I'm still weirdly confident of a top four first finish. Plus we have the Europa League as another chance should we slip down the league, and I think we've got a shot at winning that.
On Antony, I've always liked him (since before he even joined Ajax) and still do despite saying he wasn't what we needed coupled with his poor start here. I still believe he can become a good player but I don't think it will be the type people were hoping for (an explosive attacker).
There's a lot of criticism in regards to him being a "one trick pony" and his lack of assists, but I think the biggest issue (and it was my main concern before signing him) is his physicality. I don't think his speed and "explosiveness" is ever going to be top notch, but I think becoming stronger will go a long way to helping improve his general play. If he can get the ball, shield it from a pressing opposition player, turn and playmake, we'll have a player on our hands.
Thats the only fear in this. No other team will match his wages. Unless if he is put up for sale and he takes the hump and really gets pissed off here, then were stuck with him for at least 3 more seasons.
To be perfectly fair to our recruitment team, our subreddit (r/reddevils) posted a thread when we first bought him that included a scouting report in which our scouts had highlighted just how one-footed he is.
The report mentioned they had tracked his progress since he was playing at São Paulo and at Ajax too, and noted that only a very small percentage of goals he had scored came from his right foot.
I recall the report being quite sceptical about his suitability for the Premier League.
If you're interested, I can see if I can dig up the original post and find out what tier it is?
I think this signing is on ETH alone.
As for data-based recruitment, yes I've also read that we have hired some Data Scientists recently which is a good sign (although it should have been done years ago).
Said it when we signed him - Its bonkers to throw that ridiculous amount of money on a player from a Dutch league.
But on to the player himself, Antony unfortunately does not have the pace nor trickery to beat his fullback. He is far too easy to defend against at the wing. Reckon we could try convert him centrally. I would suggest CAM but I don’t think he has the vision and passing ability. So the best bet would be a box to box kind of CM. He has shown that he has the tenacity and desire to track back to defend, so reckon he could do a role there. Thoughts?
But on to the player himself, Antony unfortunately does not have the pace nor trickery to beat his fullback. He is far too easy to defend against at the wing. Reckon we could try convert him centrally. I would suggest CAM but I don’t think he has the vision and passing ability. So the best bet would be a box to box kind of CM. He has shown that he has the tenacity and desire to track back to defend, so reckon he could do a role there. Thoughts?
How did you come about that conclusion? Everytime I see them Sancho looks much more like creating a chance. His numbers in EPL are better, although they are quite close.Did you say sancho
Antony on his bad day does more than Sancho. And Pellestri has to be slowly integrated. Antony is not a 85 million player but still our only rw player. For all his flaws, could reach 10 plus goal in all competition. Not that bad for a devut season.
He works a lot harder than Sancho, retains possession better and also looks more dangerous. Numbers wise I’m not sure you have calculated that correctly, or maybe you are including last season. Nicolas Pepe has better PL numbers than Sancho
It's an argument that's thrown around quite a bit for players who're not doing well. Theoretically, it always makes sense because of certain attributes we think players possess. In real world, it is rarely successful. For example, we've moved Sancho from right to left to center now and it doesn't seem like he's a better fit in a different position now.
Regarding Antony, it makes even less sense because the one thing he is actually good at is cutting inside and shooting. While pace can't be added to his game, through proper coaching and a significant amount of work on his weak foot, Antony can become a good inverted winger.
Well let's take a look
Sancho has more goals, more assists (well, 1 vs 0), just about the same xG and 3x Antony xAG which is shockingly low. What am I missing? That seems accurate comparison since they played almost the same number of minutes.
Seems like Sancho is a better attacker and Antony a better midfielder, and that's exactly how I see them.
Sancho wasn’t injured - he wasn’t picked by Ten Hag and usually scored his goals coming off the bench.
Antony is much more dangerous for a full 90 mins than Sancho.
Stats cant change that.
Antony is much more dangerous for a full 90 mins than Sancho.
Stats cant change that.
And to contrast Antony has more goals in all competitions. So saying Sancho is a better attacker just doesn’t make sense.Well let's take a look
Sancho has more goals, more assists (well, 1 vs 0), just about the same xG and 3x Antony xAG which is shockingly low. What am I missing? That seems accurate comparison since they played almost the same number of minutes.
Seems like Sancho is a better attacker and Antony a better midfielder, and that's exactly how I see them.
Antony is also a far more dangerous player attacking wise over 90 minutes. Thats clear to anyone who watches.
If Sancho can discover his Dortmund form then the story changes.
There is a reason Sancho is struggling to make the 11.
Yeah but we'd already paid for Sancho mate. What we've done is paid another 85m for somebody who isn't any better.Did you say sancho
Antony on his bad day does more than Sancho. And Pellestri has to be slowly integrated. Antony is not a 85 million player but still our only rw player. For all his flaws, could reach 10 plus goal in all competition. Not that bad for a devut season.
Sancho has better Goals+Assis contribution per 90' though. Better in both goals and assists (slightly, but still), so there is no data indicating Antony is more productive, dangerous or whatever.
Antony only has better total numbers because he played 50% more than Sancho in cups, and Antony is pumping his numbers there while doing nothing in EPL.
I don't understand the bolded statement and it's definitely not "clear". And this is my only point. Sancho has been disappointing, Antony has been very poor so far as an attacker and quite OK as a midfielder. This is the reason why Sancho is struggling to make the 11 and probably rightly so.
Antony works hard for the side. How many times has Sancho actually done his defensive duty. People say Antony kills the attack, I say Sancho is worse. Both Antony and Sancho are not direct but Antony links up well with players around and keeps the ball well. Sancho looks like someone who is afraid to win any 50/50 duel. Not going to pretend Antony is a world beater but give me a Antony anyday than Sancho
As I said paying 85m for him was stupid but I just don't think we would have been better by just hoping Sancho as an answer in rw. From what we have seen from both, I will take Antony at 85m than Sancho at 70m. Now both have been underwhelming for their price but atleast Antony puts some efforts, I just don't see it with Sancho and his lazy body language.
I seriously hope we see the dortmund Sancho and I liked the way ETH has handled his situation but it becomes a worry when Pellestri and Garnacho are showing more willingness and effort than Sancho.
Sancho (80m)
Martial (50m)
Antony (90m)
v
Rashford (free)
Weghorst (free)
Garnacho (free)
No wonder this club can never move on. We can blame the glazers an all day, but the transfer policy has been shocking.
Martial (50m)
Antony (90m)
v
Rashford (free)
Weghorst (free)
Garnacho (free)
No wonder this club can never move on. We can blame the glazers an all day, but the transfer policy has been shocking.
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