Yup - agreed. You need at least one at the back that keeps things together.
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Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 36
- Clean sheets
- 18
- Goals
- 2
- Assists
- 2
- Yellow cards
- 0
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
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I don't understand why people attribute more blame to Smalling because he wore the captains armband. When we judge other players we take into consideration their limitations, like for example Mata is weak, Rojo is not a left back, Fellaini has no pace etc.
Smalling is not a leader or organiser of the defence, he never was. To level that criticism at him now, is a bit bizarre. He was only the captain because our current captain has the armband only for sentimental reasons nowadays, as he clearly doesn't play enough to be the captain any more.
Smalling is decent marker with good agility, heading ability and reactions. He's not a great communicator or organiser and he's not good with the ball at his feet. We know his abilities and his limitations. He's good defender, no more no less. People being disappointed because putting the captain's armband on him did not turn him into Maldini, wtf are you thinking?
Smalling is not a leader or organiser of the defence, he never was. To level that criticism at him now, is a bit bizarre. He was only the captain because our current captain has the armband only for sentimental reasons nowadays, as he clearly doesn't play enough to be the captain any more.
Smalling is decent marker with good agility, heading ability and reactions. He's not a great communicator or organiser and he's not good with the ball at his feet. We know his abilities and his limitations. He's good defender, no more no less. People being disappointed because putting the captain's armband on him did not turn him into Maldini, wtf are you thinking?
If he isn't a leader and can't organise a defense, then his long term use to the club has to be questioned. Bailey is 22 and we need someone with those qualities beside him.I don't understand why people attribute more blame to Smalling because he wore the captains armband. When we judge other players we take into consideration their limitations, like for example Mata is weak, Rojo is not a left back, Fellaini has no pace etc.
Smalling is not a leader or organiser of the defence, he never was. To level that criticism at him now, is a bit bizarre. He was only the captain because our current captain has the armband only for sentimental reasons nowadays, as he clearly doesn't play enough to be the captain any more.
Smalling is decent marker with good agility, heading ability and reactions. He's not a great communicator or organiser and he's not good with the ball at his feet. We know his abilities and his limitations. He's good defender, no more no less. People being disappointed because putting the captain's armband on him did not turn him into Maldini, wtf are you thinking?
If at 27, almost 28 and our most experienced CB by some margin, we can't rely on him to lead our defense, then something is wrong.
Too much sense in one post - go home!I don't understand why people attribute more blame to Smalling because he wore the captains armband. When we judge other players we take into consideration their limitations, like for example Mata is weak, Rojo is not a left back, Fellaini has no pace etc.
Smalling is not a leader or organiser of the defence, he never was. To level that criticism at him now, is a bit bizarre. He was only the captain because our current captain has the armband only for sentimental reasons nowadays, as he clearly doesn't play enough to be the captain any more.
Smalling is decent marker with good agility, heading ability and reactions. He's not a great communicator or organiser and he's not good with the ball at his feet. We know his abilities and his limitations. He's good defender, no more no less. People being disappointed because putting the captain's armband on him did not turn him into Maldini, wtf are you thinking?
Sometimes young people are leaders. Bailly is quiet now, but he doesn't speak the language. Neville could lead a defense from RB, as could Evra from LB. Schemichel could lead an attack from GK. We need one leader at the back; it doesn't have to be Smalling.
So all the 27+ yo players have to be leaders? I don't understand this. There have been plenty of defenders who were leaders at a young age and other who were never leaders but still good players. At this current moment in time, he is our most consistent defender. Jones is more intelligent but injured half the time, Bailly looks quite panicked and error prone atm and Rojo is extremely rash in general.
If there's a leader out there who can accompany and bring the best out of Bailly let's get him, but at this moment it won't be Smalling dropping out of the team for him.
It's strange that even though both Bailly and Rojo were much worse than Smalling, it's Smalling who gets the brunt of the criticism.
Bailly has the potential to be a great CB possibly World Class, but it's clear he needs someone with experience next to him. Smalling is our most experienced PL defender, therefore it makes sense why Mourinho partners those two together. Rojo and Bailly are both too rash and quick to slide into the tackle to really be trusted (imo) Jones needs to prove his fitness still.
I wouldn't be adverse to signing a new CB, but it wont be a replacement for Smalling, it's clear Mourinho rates him.
Bailly has the potential to be a great CB possibly World Class, but it's clear he needs someone with experience next to him. Smalling is our most experienced PL defender, therefore it makes sense why Mourinho partners those two together. Rojo and Bailly are both too rash and quick to slide into the tackle to really be trusted (imo) Jones needs to prove his fitness still.
I wouldn't be adverse to signing a new CB, but it wont be a replacement for Smalling, it's clear Mourinho rates him.
We need a leader beside Baily, that much is clear. I'm not blaming Smalling for not being one. I'm just saying giving his age and experience, him not being one puts his place in the XI at risk.
We do need in a leader at the back, I don't disagree. Smalling's place is always at risk anyway. Every CBs in our team is. The RoJones partnership had a decent run earlier in the season 'till Jones inevitably got injured again. I don't think Smalling takes his place for granted and we don't consider him an undroppable automatic pick.
Though one thing I must say, if there was a stabilising influence (a leader) in that backline, Smalling would improve too not just Bailly. And at the moment Smalling is more deserving of that place in CB line than Bailly. Sure Bailly is younger and seems to have the higher ceiling but he seems more defensively error prone than Smalling currently.
I'm happy to cut Bailly some slack because he's young, has potential and it's his first season here but taking age and potential out of the equation for a moment, I personally think both Jones and Smalling are slightly better or more consistent performers than him when they play. Though the former is unfortunately too injury prone.
How did you work that out?
If anything, Smalling has generally been getting credit for being the best of a bad bunch.
Well a lot of the compliments towards him are backhanded and usually followed up by an unnecessary criticism like how awkward he looks passing the ball.
He's been in fine form for a number of games now and its a good thing considering Jones has been out and both Rojo and Bailly have had moments that they wont want to remember. But he's still painted as having a poor moment in him at any moment, and should be dropped etc.
Compare that with Rojo & Bailly, and even their mistakes are mentioned as momentary lapses in judgement.
That would be because his performance yesterday was worthy of criticism. He didn't play well. However the consensus is mainly that he was better than Rojo and Bailly (I haven't see a single comment say he was worse than them) Surely you don't think his performance didn't deserve any criticism at all?
Didn't suggest that at all, I said unnecessary criticism - the way he passes the ball is awkward, we all know and accept this but that wasn't the reason why we were under the kosh yesterday. If we're going to criticise players then lets do it because their contribution had an adverse affect on the result/team performance.
How dare the club captain lift a trophy the club won.
Like the rest of 'em yesterday, he does indeed deserved criticism. He was the best of a bad bunch, though.
I still think there's a-few in here that like to tear others apart to staunchly defend Smalling and generally absolve Smalling of any blame. And sometimes, the evil 'haters' word gets trotted out even though others - along with Smalling - have been criticised.
I still think there's a-few in here that like to tear others apart to staunchly defend Smalling and generally absolve Smalling of any blame. And sometimes, the evil 'haters' word gets trotted out even though others - along with Smalling - have been criticised.
I laughed at the way he was ogling at Ibras MOTM trophy .
.What is it about the word haters that triggers you so much?
People, in real life, don't actually speak like that so why use it on a forum?What is it about the word haters that triggers you so much?
Why are you overly defensive of Smalling?
I've seen a few say we looked more solid without him in the team so I had a look at which of our centre backs has been involved in the most clean sheets this season. Obviously that's not the most definitive way to judge if our defence looked solid in a game but I think it's a decent indicator nonetheless.
Southampton - Bailly & Blind
Hull - Bailly & Blind
Zorya - Bailly & Smalling
Liverpool - Bailly & Smalling
City - Rojo & Blind
Burnley - Rojo & Blind
Feyenoord - Jones & Blind
Zorya - Rojo & Blind
Spurs - Jones & Rojo
West Brom - Jones & Rojo
West Ham - Jones & Rojo
Reading - Smalling & Rojo (replaced early by Jones)
Hull - Smalling & Jones
Wigan - Smalling & Rojo
Hull - Jones (replaced by Smalling) & Rojo
Leicester - Bailly & Smalling
Watford - Bailly & Smalling
St Etienne x2 - Bailly & Smalling
It's quite evenly spread out, with Smalling barely having more than the rest. Although some of his have come against lower league teams and poor Europa League opponents. At the same time though he's probably part of our most impressive one to date - away to Liverpool.
Southampton - Bailly & Blind
Hull - Bailly & Blind
Zorya - Bailly & Smalling
Liverpool - Bailly & Smalling
City - Rojo & Blind
Burnley - Rojo & Blind
Feyenoord - Jones & Blind
Zorya - Rojo & Blind
Spurs - Jones & Rojo
West Brom - Jones & Rojo
West Ham - Jones & Rojo
Reading - Smalling & Rojo (replaced early by Jones)
Hull - Smalling & Jones
Wigan - Smalling & Rojo
Hull - Jones (replaced by Smalling) & Rojo
Leicester - Bailly & Smalling
Watford - Bailly & Smalling
St Etienne x2 - Bailly & Smalling
It's quite evenly spread out, with Smalling barely having more than the rest. Although some of his have come against lower league teams and poor Europa League opponents. At the same time though he's probably part of our most impressive one to date - away to Liverpool.
The only person I'd consider a "hater" (I hate the term too) is Jaybomb. There's a few, including yourself, who don't particularly rate him but are able to praise him when he deserves it. Jaybomb is the only one that only comes in here to criticise.
Not a fan of colloquial slang terms then?People, in real life, don't actually speak like that so why use it on a forum?
Why are you overly defensive of Smalling?
I'm defensive over all of our players, I think you'll find that I give credit and criticism to all of them when it's due. You'll find me defending Fellaini occasionally too.
I've said multiple times that some of our fans make out that especially when it comes to our CB pairings it has to be either Jones & Rojo or Bailly & Smalling or what other combination they prefer, when in reality all 4 of our defenders are at a similar level and each have their individual strengths and weaknesses.
Bailly has the highest ceiling, Smalling is the most experienced, Jones is the most composed, and Rojo has surprised us all.
What I will say is that Smalling gets a more criticism than the others and for that, I don't understand, which is why I defend him more than the others. There's many more people willing to pounce on any mistake he makes, one poster even commented that Smalling inevitably made a mistake in a match he didn't even watch.
Yes, that's one way of putting it. 
I was 'surprised' by his play so often yesterday that I had a nervous breakdown and ritually cursed him. He was like Luiz before he became good.I'm not a fan of childish terminology such as 'hater' which adds nothing to a debate, whatsoever. It's become one of the most aggravating, cringy sayings on this board. It seems players can't be criticised without someone labelling them a 'hater'. If you think that adds anything to a discussion, then so-be-it, me personally, I find it utterly tedious and cringy. I mean, I have literally never heard anyone I know call anyone in any walk of life - not just football - a 'hater'.
No, I find you along with others have your favourites and you'll camp out in their threads blindly defending 'said player' when at the same time, you have no issues criticising others, in the process. It's just weird and it's like you take the criticism of Smalling as a personal attack.
I prefer objective posters who can praise players when they play well and criticise when necessary.
I'm not familiar with that poster but yeah, most are pretty objective in general. I thought Smalling was wank for a few games and said as much. I have then praised his recent performances (although yesterday he was poor).
There are severel 'player performance threads': Fellaini, Lingard and Smalling come to mind, in which posters get overly emotional and defensive when others dare level any sort of criticism at them. I just don't get it. I mean, look at the Lingard thread; most can accept he was crap yesterday but fair play he got a goal which was more than Mata, Martial etc can say; yet some of his staunch defenders are trying to say he played well. It's just bizarre.
What infuriates me about Smalling is that he is sometimes slow to react, especially to grounded balls/croses played into the box. I get the impression that we are most vulnerable to those when Smalling is one of our CB. Even against Southampton, he didn't react fast enough for their first (valid) goal. While Rojo and Bailey were undoubtedly worse in the last game, I don't see even Smalling as some one who can ever be as good as Rio/Vidic were.
I think it's the over the top criticism of those 3 that forces posters to defend them. If people were to say Smalling really needs to improve on the ball then I wouldn't defend him as it's spot on. But people coming in and saying he's West Ham standard or the like forces me to defend him as I just find that so over the top.
Same for Lingard, where people say he's Championship standard. I personally see him as nothing more than a squad player but calling him championship standard is just over the top again.
I don't particularly rate Fellaini at all so stay out of his thread tbh
If you honestly think his awkward passing was the only flaw in yesterday's performance worthy of discussion then I think you're probably too biased to have a balanced opinion on the bloke. It was just an overall poor performance, in every aspect of the central defender's game. In a way he was lucky that Bailly was even worse, as that has taken the edge off the opinion that performance deserved.
Now I'm talking about one performance here. Not saying he's a poor player or not good enough for United. That's a different discussion and I've noticed that people who are overly defensive of certain players often infer a criticism of a performance is a more general criticism of the player overall.
Camp out in threads? It's not that serious, I've been in multiple threads in the football and general today, I only come back if I'm quoted. The only way you can tell if me (and others) are 'camped out' is if you are also monitoring those same threads too, right?
Everybody has favourites, Bailly is one of my favourites but he doesn't need my adulation because who doesn't love the guy? At the same time I'm not going to engage in mob mentality like what happens in Fellaini & Lingard especially. If you don't like it that's fine, but I don't post to appease you.
I only used that as an example that came to my head because it's often said about him.
Oh I agree there's definitely OTT criticism too, it works both ways. I don't mind people defending players whatsoever, but when they resort to coming into the Lingard thread and saying "Take that haters" after he scores; well, I just find that pathetic and unproductive. Same with Smalling, there's some that have to resort to slating others, solely to defend him. I mean, he's a decent enough player but he will warrant praise and criticism over the course of a season, and both are fair game, imo.I think it's the over the top criticism of those 3 that forces posters to defend them. If people were to say Smalling really needs to improve on the ball then I wouldn't defend him as it's spot on. But people coming in and saying he's West Ham standard or the like forces me to defend him as I just find that so over the top.
Same for Lingard, where people say he's Championship standard. I personally see him as nothing more than a squad player but calling him championship standard is just over the top again.
I don't particularly rate Fellaini at all so stay out of his thread tbh
I also don't get this new fad whereby a player can't get called out on having a bad game without being labelled a 'hater' or being accused of having an 'agenda'. Again, I'll revert back to the Lingard thread from yesterday: What's the issue in saying "yeah fair play with the goal but he was generally poor"? As I said in his thread, it's actually disingenuous to say he played well yesterday considering he's capable of so much more but some are so hell-bent on making out that there are all these rampant agendas that they'll say he played well, just because...
It's often said because it's probably his most persistent negative trait. When he's on top of his game it doesn't matter because he's so good when the opposition have the ball. If he's really in the zone his ability on the ball also seems to improve. Which makes me think his main flaw is mental, rather than technical. He seems to lack a bit of composure and/or belief in his own abilities and can get rattled. The problem this causes our team as a collective is that this sense of panic seems to be contagious.
Yesterday, Bailly seemed to trigger the collective unease. From his first kick of the ball he looked to be incredibly nervous. Unfortunately, Smalling was his worst possible partner for this scenario and the two of them completely lost their shit for most of the game. Tbf to Smalling he was winning most of his battles by the end of the game, so deserves at least some credit, even though he was poor overall.
He won't be you are right but very, very few defenders will ever reach that level to be fair.
My point was how you lack any sort of objectivity in this thread. I probably have more posts (in here) but at least I can say when he's played well or played shit (or how I have perceived, anyway). With you, it's staunch defence of him no matter how he plays. Then, if you are to even mildly critique him, you will do so by blaming others.
I probably have 'favourites' in the best sense of the word, but I certainly won't get as blinded by them and refuse to criticise them like some do with their 'favourites'. Fellaini and Lingard get harshly criticised at times, for sure, but so do most. The thing with Fellaini and Lingard especially, is that people make things up and say they have played well when they clearly haven't. That's the kind of blind, staunch defence that I'm talking about.
Chill out bro, I don't care if you don't want to appease me, I wouldn't want you to. You quoted me first after all
I'm sure you're a good poster and all...Oh yeah I agree with that, he definitely is a confidence player, when he's on form he's really on form, and loses a lot of his clumsiness. When he's off form he is much more shaky. I suspect he's still not over the Chelsea game because that was trauma-inducing.
Possibly, I like the story of a non-league footballer being discovered out of nowhere and playing at the highest level of the game. Plus he's British too. Him, Bailly & Valencia are my favourite defenders at the club and they all have a similar story of rising to the top against the odd. I like the romance of it.My point was how you lack any sort of objectivity in this thread. I probably have more posts (in here) but at least I can say when he's played well or played shit (or how I have perceived, anyway). With you, it's staunch defence of him no matter how he plays. Then, if you are to even mildly critique him, you will do so by blaming others.
I probably have 'favourites' in the best sense of the word, but I certainly won't get as blinded by them and refuse to criticise them like some do with their 'favourites'. Fellaini and Lingard get harshly criticised at times, for sure, but so do most. The thing with Fellaini and Lingard especially, is that people make things up and say they have played well when they clearly haven't. That's the kind of blind, staunch defence that I'm talking about.
Chill out bro, I don't care if you don't want to appease me, I wouldn't want you to. You quoted me first after all
I'm your sis, not your bro though.
Possibly, I like the story of a non-league footballer being discovered out of nowhere and playing at the highest level of the game. Plus he's British too. Him, Bailly & Valencia are my favourite defenders at the club and they all have a similar story of rising to the top against the odd. I like the romance of it.
I'm your sis, not your bro though.
I can't believe we're still having this debate - Smalling is nowhere close to being a leader. The problem is, we are expecting him to be 'the man' - LVG did this alongside Blind, and he's back in that role now. He is NOT a leader, if you put him alongside a true leader like a Vidic, Stam etc, he'd look really good coz he isn't a bad CB at all. He's just nowhere near confident or skilled enough to be the main man in the CB partnership.
Signing a top-drawer, experienced, sturdy CB is imperative this summer - one of Smalling, Jones or Rojo will be sold and the remaining two will battle with Bailly to partner this new signing regularly. Tuanzebe as understudy.
Signing a top-drawer, experienced, sturdy CB is imperative this summer - one of Smalling, Jones or Rojo will be sold and the remaining two will battle with Bailly to partner this new signing regularly. Tuanzebe as understudy.
Well color me surprised! Like Robbie Boy I assumed you were maleI'm your sis, not your bro though.
Im not surprised no one has even mentioned it was Smalling's long headed clearance that started the counter attack that led to our goal.
It was such a moment of magic and individual brilliance that I wrote it in my Smalling scrapbook. A pinpoint precision header that started a counter atack which ultimately lead to the goal that gave us our first major trophy of this season. It was soo good that Smalling too through he deserved the MoM award purely for that header and that's why his eyes went wide with shock when looking at the trophy in Ibra's hands. He took it, he cradled it, whispered we'll be together again and handed it back with a tear in the corner of his googly eyes.
I think the issue with Smalling is purely composure. He's really good when we dominate and his main job is tidying up near the halfway line, and the ball is almost always in front of him.
He's not great when teams have a go at us, when he's put in positions where he has to face his own goal. For numerous chances in the final, he was the front post defender: his job isn't to mark anyone (Bailly was busy not doing that) but to get himself in a good position to block crosses. He basically failed to block anything below head height all match, and kept trying to step up for offsides rather than sprint to get in front of crosses. It was just weird given that was clearly the strategy down his left side.
I'm not sure if it's a left side thing, but he really was poor. Not relative to Bailly, but in absolute terms.
He's not great when teams have a go at us, when he's put in positions where he has to face his own goal. For numerous chances in the final, he was the front post defender: his job isn't to mark anyone (Bailly was busy not doing that) but to get himself in a good position to block crosses. He basically failed to block anything below head height all match, and kept trying to step up for offsides rather than sprint to get in front of crosses. It was just weird given that was clearly the strategy down his left side.
I'm not sure if it's a left side thing, but he really was poor. Not relative to Bailly, but in absolute terms.
I actually think many would completely disagree with you. When we are dominating sides, a player like Blind is superior because of his passing and speed of thought. When teams press us and/or we are chasing a goal, Smalling is mostly a great defender. He is superior to pretty much any attacker in the air, and I've yet to see him outpaced over distance - he is great against counter attacking sides, keeping up with the likes of Vardy and outpacing the likes of Willian.
On the other hand, when we want to up the tempo and at the same time have to resort to using our defenders in the build-up, he often comes up short with his taking too long on the ball and playing it too safe.
I meant purely from a defending point of view - he's rubbish going forwards. I agree on his pace but that's kind of what I was trying to say: he's best when defending near the halfway line. He looks shaky when he has to defend his own box, the closer to his goal the less his skills seem to be as useful.
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