Erik ten Hag - Manchester United manager

[TsuWave]

The issue is that teams that play with a single DM don't setup the way we do because it doesn't matter how young or in shape he is a single player can't cover the entire width of the pitch and also massive vertical gaps. Our system is senseless regardless of personnel.

Facts. I’ve even seen Mainoo drowning out there

 

[BorisManUtd]

what impatience, what are you on about? Are you drunk?

When has the bolded part ever happened?

I dont know what our current situation has to do with Real? Have you watched us the last 10 years? You speak like we come from a triple season and had a bad season now and everyone is unhappy. Get a grip.

If anything, our fanbase is ridiculously generous and patient for a former top club. Too much for their own good.

His name is TrustInJanuzaj so perhaps he's writing from December 2013. We're the reigning champions.

 

[DSG]

This thread is just an echo chamber of pretending that impatience is some form of standards. It’s not it’s just delusion. We aren’t Real Madrid either in terms of our squad, resources, league or even our ethos and I don’t understand why you’d want to replicate that. I don’t want to support a club that boos our best player for a poor game, again that’s not standards, it’s pathetic entitlement.

Before I’m jumped on this isn’t be defending Ten Hag and all he does, just answering some of the ridiculousness of the discourse in here.

I don’t understand this. We should look at successful clubs and steal the things they do well, leave the stuff we don’t like. Successful businesses around the world do the same. Our ethos, culture and everything else about the club doesn’t need to change. Nothing is going to change who we are. The Munich tragedy we’ve endured, the being the first English club to win the European Cup, the first to win the treble, the most league titles, the commitment to youth and the academy.

What we are saying is that a commitment to excellence and not accepting less is a very positive characteristic. Embodying those values and handling problems with dignity and class is a choice.

 

[stevoc]

What's the point in comparing 2 teams at completely different points of progress? Arsenal scored 55 goals in Arteta's second season, and 60 the season after.

Because no United side should ever be poor enough to be 65 GD behind any Arsenal side.

In that season where they scored 55 they had a GD of +13, City won the league with +51.

 

[frostbite]

Because that notion was always rubbish. Things change quickly in football, with transfers, growth of players and managers. Napoli didn't do a 3 to 5 year plan to win Serie A. Neither did Leverkusen this season. Good teams with the type of resources we have can have really quick turnarounds. Chelsea from 02/03 to 04/05 became the best team in the world in just two seasons of having Roman Abramovich. We aren't Man City pre-Abu Dhabi who needed to change the entire club and even they didn't need 5 years.

Speaking of clubs changing eras, Real Madrid just showed us what our transition should have looked like. They managed to still stay competitive while improving incrementally. Only at United do people want to tear everything apart and start again after every manager. The difference here is that if Madrid had a manager that had them finishing 4th and conceding 20 shots a game, they would have sacked him mid-season. United keep him for the whole season, whilst having everyone and their dog blame the players with everything coming out of the club targeting the players with mentions of mass sales. One club is looking to consistently be successful, the other one does things to "honor traditions" - the United way.

You are absolutely correct. The other notion that many people get wrong is that you have to hit rock bottom before you really improve. This is silly, it doesn't happen in real life, it is probably from the movies or something.

Real Madrid would have sacked Ten Hag an hour after getting beaten 7-0.

 

[stevoc]

Since our win against Villa at the start of February, based on form we're 16th in the table. I know based on expected points we've been hovering around 15th. And 12-13TH in xG.

Have results finally caught up with performances this season?

 

[stevoc]

You are absolutely correct. The other notion that many people get wrong is that you have to hit rock bottom before you really improve. This is silly, it doesn't happen in real life, it is probably from the movies or something.

Real Madrid would have sacked Ten Hag an hour after getting beaten 7-0.

Are you sure?

Don't they let a house burn completely down before trying to put the fire out?

 

[frostbite]

Are you sure?

Don't they let a house burn completely down before trying to put the fire out?

Haha, yeah, I'm sure. The vast majority of people or companies who hit "rock bottom" usually disappear completely, they don't go back to the top. But the stories of the few exceptions who go from rock bottom to the top make great Hollywood movies.

 

[NinjaZombie]

Madrid literally sacked Benitez after a few months of shite. And then people are shocked when they are in the UCL final every year. Highest standards in the world and they don’t just clap their hands after every embarrassing defeat to “show support” of a bunch of dogshit spoiled players.

But United fans will also defend Rashford for years of laziness while we sit at home and watch Vini and co living and dying with every tackle in a UCL semi final doing whatever it takes. The stupid fecking romanticism our fanbase is obsessed with has to end at some point.

Spot on.

 

[Sanchez7]

Since our win against Villa at the start of February, based on form we're 16th in the table. I know based on expected points we've been hovering around 15th. And 12-13TH in xG.

Have results finally caught up with performances this season?

Wow!

 

[Leftback99]

Since our win against Villa at the start of February, based on form we're 16th in the table. I know based on expected points we've been hovering around 15th. And 12-13TH in xG.

Have results finally caught up with performances this season?

Yes, as many of us predicted they would.

The problem is he's sank us so low now it's a long way back next season, performance wise and squad wise.

How many teams have ever gone from a comfortable bottom half side in underlying stats one season to challenging for top 4 in the next season?

 

[giggs-beckham]

About 40% are newbies with few posts and few likes. Also a lot of 0 post accounts.

Public votes so much better

Yea I noticed this also, didn't recognise most of them

 

[Cerberus]

Re your original point, all managers have that? That’s not unique to ETH. And as much as I like Ragnick why would you penalise a manager because they got more transfer control and didn’t want to lose it? Ragnick doesn’t do chilled take it or leave it advice, he either runs your recruitment or he doesn’t and most managers want as much control as possible.Also given they believe in different styles of play why would ETH willingly want a DoF who will want different players to him?

You're not wrong here, but my reasoning is that ETH is not a new manager. He's not walking into the situation with our new structure, he's arleady established the terms of his tenure at United and now a new team has been placed that will strip him of a lot of authority. It's one thing to come to the club knowing your transfer power is limited, it's another to have it taken from you when you're in the process of implementing it and I doubt Ineos were specifically selecting Ashworth & Wilcox based on how much they agree with Ten Hag's transfer policy.

I just can't see a good result from Ten Hag going into the final season of his contract without a renewal (which means reduced authority) and loss of transfer authority while being dictated a playstyle. Maybe that would have been fine if he arrived with those circumstances but pushing that onto him after two seasons of total control is going to generate conflict. This is why I think they're going to start over with a new manager.

 

[croadyman]

The standard for any United manager is - they deserve at least 3 seasons and are fine so long as they meet certain minimum requirements (which are now, pathetically, win a cup or qualify for Europa most of the time)

The standards at any top club are - they get a season and if they haven't improved the football and results, then they're fecked off sharpish. And if they improve the team in the first season, they still have to improve again in the second.

That certainly should be the standard at Utd but haven't seen enough evidence since 2013

 

[stevoc]

Yes, as many of us predicted they would.

The problem is he's sank us so low now it's a long way back next season, performance wise and squad wise.

How many teams have ever gone from a comfortable bottom half side in underlying stats one season to challenging for top 4 in the next season?

No idea but Im sure it's not many.

On the bright side we surely won't have as many injuries next season and hopefully we won't have a manager insisting on playing a wackydoodle system that makes the squad much lesser than the sum of its parts.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

From now on, we are not supposed to give every new manager 3-5 years plan. We are supposed to have a functional football structure now. Their main job is to make sure seamless transition between managers. Also, to change manager immediately if they see that the manager is not suitable. Basically, this is how well run club works. See RM, BM and etc. We never heard RM and BM give their manager 3 years. 1st year if you can't perform or don't see improvement, you are out of the door straight.

Basically, yes.

Obviously, it ain't quite so simple - and we are possibly in the embryo stage of being a club like that (after decades of Fergie followed by years of stupidly trying to replace him).

But, basically - yes. That's the idea.

The only half valid reason I can see for being ETH-in at this point is...that you have no faith in the reality of the re-structuring.

(Which I can understand, by the way. None of us have any real reason to trust the owners. INEOS have everything to do in order to get us on board.)

But everything else notwithstanding: the idea of not sacking ETH because "it hasn't worked before, we should rather sack the players" is very close to sheer insanity on all sorts of levels.

 

[JPRouve]

Yes, as many of us predicted they would.

The problem is he's sank us so low now it's a long way back next season, performance wise and squad wise.

How many teams have ever gone from a comfortable bottom half side in underlying stats one season to challenging for top 4 in the next season?

Aston Villa pre-Emery?

 

[stevoc]

Haha, yeah, I'm sure. The vast majority of people or companies who hit "rock bottom" usually disappear completely, they don't go back to the top. But the stories of the few exceptions who go from rock bottom to the top make great Hollywood movies.

Yep, us having no Champions League football or indeed any type of European football next season makes the new Regimes job much harder than it needed to be this summer. We'll have significan'ty less money to spend on fees/wages and it'll be harder to attract players with no CL. So we might end up having to offer premium wages for players to give up European football for a year.

Something should have been done before Xmas to try and salvage something this year.

 

[Bilbo]

I'm back with another source bit random but..

McKenna is leaving Ipswitch thought is he's going Brighton so De Zerbi anyone?

I dont want to tell you my source as it would be too obvious to the people he knows but let's just say it's come from playing staff at Ipswitch.

Mate, as someone who used to work for a spread betting company and received a lot of inside information, if you do genuinely have inside sources you probably shouldn't be betraying their trust on a public message board full of strangers

 

[croadyman]

From now on, we are not supposed to give every new manager 3-5 years plan. We are supposed to have a functional football structure now. Their main job is to make sure seamless transition between managers. Also, to change manager immediately if they see that the manager is not suitable. Basically, this is how well run club works. See RM, BM and etc. We never heard RM and BM give their manager 3 years. 1st year if you can't perform or don't see improvement, you are out of the door straight.

Yeah that's exactly how we should be thinking but our fanbase can be far too sentimental with managers due to the Fergie era

 

[stevoc]

Basically, yes.

Obviously, it ain't quite so simple - and we are possibly in the embryo stage of being a club like that (after decades of Fergie followed by years of stupidly trying to replace him).

But, basically - yes. That's the idea.

The only half valid reason I can see for being ETH-in at this point is...that you have no faith in the reality of the re-structuring.

(Which I can understand, by the way. None of us have any real reason to trust the owners. INEOS have everything to do in order to get us on board.)

But everything else notwithstanding: the idea of not sacking ETH because "it hasn't worked before, we should rather sack the players" is very close to sheer insanity on all sorts of levels.

It is, and a close second in the bonkers logic stakes is ''We've sacked managers who've failed before, then we replaced them with other managers who failed. We need to break the cycle and not sack this failing manager, because that'll be different.''

 

[NLunited]

I don’t necessarily think that is true. Of course, many that wanted Ole out want ETH out, those prioritizing results. I think we tend to simplify these things because it is easy.

Many of those that criticized Ole early on didn’t like him because they believe counter attacking football is inferior to other forms. I have no issues with counterattacking football, I think it can be the most breathtaking. Watch Real Madrid…

It seems to me that some of those defending ETH are obsessed with Ajax/Dutch total football, possession based and / or high press football and believe we need an idealist, like Pep, to return us to the top of the league. I’ve never bought into that line of thinking. Real Madrid are the ultimate pragmatists, and look, they are in another CL final. Their strategy is simple: buy the best young players, get a great coach/manager, and everything else falls into place.

Ten Hag‘s style is actually more transition based and more direct than the patient possession based approach.

There are those here who think we should go all in for possession based football, I‘m not one of them. I think it is outdated and you need the very best players to make it work.

 

[croadyman]

Honestly, would rather we went for McKenna than De Zerbi.

My biggest concern with these young up and coming managers is can they handle this club. Clearly there is talent but feel they could well end up getting swallowed up by the size of it.

 

[The Mitcher]

Mate, as someone who used to work for a spread betting company and received a lot of inside information, if you do genuinely have inside sources you probably shouldn't be betraying their trust on a public message board full of strangers

His claim to fame is predicting the INEOS takeover. Though, this smells like BS. Why leave a club you just promoted twice in a row?

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Yeah that's exactly how we should be thinking but our fanbase can be far too sentimental with managers due to the Fergie era

Which is understandable.

Let's not forget that. It isn't random. The idea of a new era of greatness under a new genius manager is very much based on United's history.

It is misguided (in my opinion), because...well, basically because the football landscape has simply changed too much. Fergie was the last of his kind - and United should have realized this, we all know that story, I'm sure: it was exceptionally tricky, though. Because of Fergie himself. He was a force of nature, pretty much - and even after he had started to slow down, he was still capable of...well, winning the league.

If Fergie had deteriorated like most other managers, it would've been much easier.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

Mate, as someone who used to work for a spread betting company and received a lot of inside information, if you do genuinely have inside sources you probably shouldn't be betraying their trust on a public message board full of strangers

It’s fine my other inside sources say hes full of it.

Every year we get one attention seeker that has these “sources”.

 

[Bilbo]

It is, and a close second in the bonkers logic stakes is ''We've sacked managers who've failed before, then we replaced them with other managers who failed. We need to break the cycle and not sack this failing manager, because that'll be different.''

If this is what people are taking from those who are not desperate for a sacking, then either those people have been making poor arguments or others are simply taking parts of a point and making it the whole thing.

As someone who is fairly non-plussed either way, the obvious arguments for giving him another season are a strong first campaign and a second one that's been an outlier in terms of player availability and sheer rotten luck.

It's really that simple, and ultimately comes down to whether people buy that or not. Many do not, and thats fine, but reducing it down as you are does nobody any favours, because I doubt there's a single person who thinks United should just give every manager a minimum period of time in charge.

 

[Revan]

If this is what people are taking from those who are not desperate for a sacking, then either those people have been making poor arguments or others are simply taking parts of a point and making it the whole thing.

As someone who is fairly non-plussed either way, the obvious arguments for giving him another season are a strong first campaign and a second one that's been an outlier in terms of player availability and sheer rotten luck.

It's really that simple, and ultimately comes down to whether people buy that or not. Many do not, and thats fine, but reducing it down as you are does nobody any favours, because I doubt there's a single person who thinks United should just give every manager a minimum period of time in charge.

In what aspect? Because based on watching the matches (and underlying 'stats' like xG, xGA, xPts) that is far from true, in fact, we have been incredibly lucky to be where we are.

If you mean by being in a middle of takeover, sure, but I think that still didn't effect our pre-season (essentially buying the striker, midfielder(s), and the keeper he wanted. So hardly a case of the takeover ruining the transfer plans.

 

[croadyman]

Yes votes now up to 20%,jeez

 

[Revan]

Yes votes now up to 20%,jeez

We lost only 1-0 yesterday so to be expected. Win the next two matches and it will reach 50%. To then lose 7-0 from City and be back at original, 10%.

 

[RedStarUnited]

This thread is just an echo chamber of pretending that impatience is some form of standards. It’s not it’s just delusion. We aren’t Real Madrid either in terms of our squad, resources, league or even our ethos and I don’t understand why you’d want to replicate that. I don’t want to support a club that boos our best player for a poor game, again that’s not standards, it’s pathetic entitlement.

Before I’m jumped on this isn’t be defending Ten Hag and all he does, just answering some of the ridiculousness of the discourse in here.

Even at Madrid that happens rarely and you know why it happens rarely? Because the players know its possible.

Madrid literally sacked Benitez after a few months of shite. And then people are shocked when they are in the UCL final every year. Highest standards in the world and they don’t just clap their hands after every embarrassing defeat to “show support” of a bunch of dogshit spoiled players.

But United fans will also defend Rashford for years of laziness while we sit at home and watch Vini and co living and dying with every tackle in a UCL semi final doing whatever it takes. The stupid fecking romanticism our fanbase is obsessed with has to end at some point.

When I think of big historical teams I feel English teams and United especially are easily the best teams to manage in terms of pressure. The fans at United make it so easy for managers and players. Rashford thinks he is being abused, its nothing compared to what he would get in other big teams.

 

[C'est Moi Cantona]

Yes votes now up to 20%,jeez

Southgate links today, I want him gone, but I'd keep him over Southgate every time.

 

[TrebleChamp99]

Mate, as someone who used to work for a spread betting company and received a lot of inside information, if you do genuinely have inside sources you probably shouldn't be betraying their trust on a public message board full of strangers

Don't know what your talking about. It was an opinion of someone . Removed anyway cos you probably have a point.

 

[Marcelinho87]

Don't know what your talking about. It was an opinion of someone . Removed anyway cos you probably have a point.

de Zerbi —> Bayern - McKenna —> Brighton and …. Rooney —> Ipswich is what I’m hearing.

 

[stevoc]

If this is what people are taking from those who are not desperate for a sacking, then either those people have been making poor arguments or others are simply taking parts of a point and making it the whole thing.

As someone who is fairly non-plussed either way, the obvious arguments for giving him another season are a strong first campaign and a second one that's been an outlier in terms of player availability and sheer rotten luck.

It's really that simple, and ultimately comes down to whether people buy that or not. Many do not, and thats fine, but reducing it down as you are does nobody any favours, because I doubt there's a single person who thinks United should just give every manager a minimum period of time in charge.

Reducing it? I don't think so mate what I've written is basically the whole argument that I've heard and read many times now. Including recently by Gary Neville.

I'm sure other people who aren't looking for him to be sacked have somewhat more thought out or different arguments, no idea why you think I'm trying to paint every opinion with the same brush.

 

[Rightnr]

Since our win against Villa at the start of February, based on form we're 16th in the table. I know based on expected points we've been hovering around 15th. And 12-13TH in xG.

Have results finally caught up with performances this season?

Nah, we've been really unlucky with injuries, vibes and the placement of the planets.

Also, talking like this gets you the 'doesnt know anything about football' conviction in the court of EtH.

 

[DJ_21]

Don’t think we’re getting another win this season.

 

[hobbers]

Southgate links today, I want him gone, but I'd keep him over Southgate every time.

But has nothing to do with the poll question

Like I hate to break it to the 'we shouldnt sack him because what if we end up with Southgate?' people.

If Ineos are incompetent enough to give ETH a final doomed chance, we will waste another season yes, but then what's stopping them appointing Southgate mid season or next summer...? Nothing.

If they're stupid enough to do the former, there is no doubting they'd be stupid enough to do the latter. That is potentially the next 2 or 3 seasons wasted on ETH then Southgate.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Many do not, and thats fine, but reducing it down as you are does nobody any favours, because I doubt there's a single person who thinks United should just give every manager a minimum period of time in charge.

True, of course.

But there is a rather prevalent idea that sacking the "manager" does nothing to improve the general state of affairs - because (and this is the actual argument, of course) the structure is rotten.

My take is that many ETH "supporters" (there are degrees there, of course, it's not a homogeneous group) fall into that category.

And...again, I can understand that sense of....resignation. Of course.

But surely, the premise now has to be that structural changes are being made.

(We can doubt it, sure - but that means we're eternally fecked and really has nothing to do with ETH as such, right?)

Given the premise that structural changes are being made - why should we keep ETH?

Let's absolve him of all transfers for the sake of argument (let's pretend he didn't actually welcome the chance to build a squad in a more hands-on capacity) - why should the new regime fancy ETH as their head coach?

Because of what he achieved in his first season?

Because of what he achieved at Ajax?

Because there are clear signs that he's building something (in terms of coaching)?

What exactly is the argument for sticking with ETH rather than just hiring another head coach (again: the premise here is that the structure has changed, the next bloke won't be a "manager" with significant input on transfers and overall club strategy, "just" a coach) - like, say, Tuchel?

 

[croadyman]

Southgate links today, I want him gone, but I'd keep him over Southgate every time.

Yeah would keep him over Southgate/Potter,also not keen on the likes of a Mourinho return or Conte either.