Jurgen Klopp Sack Watch

[breakout67]

Yet made it to a Champions League and a Europa League final. While he obviously lost either one, how many coaches even get to say they got to two European finals?

That's a very strange way to look at things; as if you are specifically looking for a way to praise Klopp. How about instead of two European finals, actually winning a European cup.

Unai Emery has won three European Cups with Sevilla. So he is a better manager than Klopp yes? Or does he not play the way you want or show enough passhun?

How about Rafa Benitez, he won the league with Valenica twice, and won the CL and EL.

Simeone won La Liga with Atletico and the EL, as well as two CL finals.

The above 3 are not even elite coaches; yet have shown better achievments than Klopp. So Klopp cannot even be compared to elite coaches like Mourinho and Guardiola.

 

[B20]

That's a very strange way to look at things; as if you are specifically looking for a way to praise Klopp. How about instead of two European finals, actually winning a European cup.

Unai Emery has won three European Cups with Sevilla. So he is a better manager than Klopp yes? Or does he not play the way you want or show enough passhun?

How about Rafa Benitez, he won the league with Valenica twice, and won the CL and EL.

Simeone won La Liga with Atletico and the EL, as well as two CL finals.

The above 3 are not even elite coaches; yet have shown better achievments than Klopp. So Klopp cannot even be compared to elite coaches like Mourinho and Guardiola.

wut

 

[Lyricist]

That's a very strange way to look at things; as if you are specifically looking for a way to praise Klopp. How about instead of two European finals, actually winning a European cup.

Unai Emery has won three European Cups with Sevilla. So he is a better manager than Klopp yes? Or does he not play the way you want or show enough passhun?

Sorry, but this is just stupid and takes any objectivity and relevance out of your post. I said nothing that warrants such a personally attacking response. "passhun"

How about Rafa Benitez, he won the league with Valenica twice, and won the CL and EL.

Simeone won La Liga with Atletico and the EL, as well as two CL finals.

The above 3 are not even elite coaches; yet have shown better achievments than Klopp. So Klopp cannot even be compared to elite coaches like Mourinho and Guardiola.

As far as I'm aware Unai Emery is currently coaching PSG. Benitez, despite being a complete failure there, was deemed good enough to coach Real Madrid at one point, and Simeone is wanted by half the teams in Europe and not too long ago half the people here would've taken him as United coach too.
Shows me that all of them do qualify for the very top. All I said about Klopp was that's it's weird to me to deny any qualification to coach a top club when he's previously reached 2 European finals, with his one with Dortmund being a complete outsider/underdog story that happened to a big part because of his coaching.

The post I originally responded to was:

Not good enough for the very top

That you go and turn that into "Is X better now because blabla?" is silly.
Is the current coach of PSG not an elite coach? Are according to you only the two former El Classico coaches Pep and Mourinho elite, as they took Messi vs Ronaldo onto the coaching stage?
Well that leaves us with only 2 top coaches...too bad there are far more than 2 top clubs though. So I guess if the 2 stars are taken then the "very top" will have to reach a little lower than Pep and Mourinho and will have to go into the Emery, Simeone, Klopp bracket. Which means they'd still be good enough for the very top.

 

[breakout67]

Sorry, but this is just stupid and takes any objectivity and relevance out of your post. I said nothing that warrants such a personally attacking response. "passhun"

That was not a personal attack; but a response to such a specific criteria of very top managers; as if to include Klopp. Klopp has lost so many finals, such that your criteria will include Klopp by design. If Klopp actually won a European Cup final then I would have no issue with considering him at the very top of management. It is not as if he had one chance and got bad luck; he had a second chance and failed to win again.

As far as I'm aware Unai Emery is currently coaching PSG. Benitez, despite being a complete failure there, was deemed good enough to coach Real Madrid at one point, and Simeone is wanted by half the teams in Europe and not too long ago half the people here would've taken him as United coach too.
Shows me that all of them do qualify for the very top. All I said about Klopp was that's it's weird to me to deny any qualification to coach a top club when he's previously reached 2 European finals, with his one with Dortmund being a complete outsider/underdog story that happened to a big part because of his coaching.

My point was that these managers are better than Klopp; because they have done more than him. These managers are suitable for very top clubs and Klopp isn't.

That you go and turn that into "Is X better now because blabla?" is silly.
Is the current coach of PSG not an elite coach? Are according to you only the two former El Classico coaches Pep and Mourinho elite, as they took Messi vs Ronaldo onto the coaching stage?
Well that leaves us with only 2 top coaches...too bad there are far more than 2 top clubs though. So I guess if the 2 stars are taken then the "very top" will have to reach a little lower than Pep and Mourinho and will have to go into the Emery, Simeone, Klopp bracket. Which means they'd still be good enough for the very top.

The 'very top' is a relative term. Therefore, Klopp must be compared to other managers to get an estimation of who is at the very top and not.

If you want to say that Mourinho and Guardiola at the very very top that is fine. Even then Klopp does not make the cut for the very top because there are several managers above him.

 

[Sied]

The weirdest thing is that a lot of people seem to think that the Americans are more open-minded about sex and swear words when its so far from the truth. Puritanical attitudes and political correctness have censored half the population.

Europeans are just more open-minded and tolerant in comparison.

Easy to get confused when you can legally be armed to the teeth, by swearing is still frowned upon.

 

[DreamIsh]

Klopp is part of the reason Liverpool's defence is poor.

It was poor before he got here. But it’s also a byproduct of his style of football...

His style calls for a physical DM more than anything. Yet we don’t have one. No cover for the defence at all.

 

[Lyricist]

My point was that these managers are better than Klopp; because they have done more than him. These managers are suitable for very top clubs and Klopp isn't.

But earlier you said they weren't even elite coaches? I'm confused.

If you want to say that Mourinho and Guardiola at the very very top that is fine.

I am not making that point at all. YOU said the elite coaches are Mourinho and Guardiola after saying that Simeone, and Emery aren't even Elite. It's not necessarily wrong but it's a bit exclusive to just consider Mourinho and Pep to be the be all end and all of coaching.
I'm also not intending to put all the good coaches into brackets and then say "ok the first five are good enough for the 5 best teams, the next 5 are good enough for the 5 next best teams" as that would be completely missing what the initial post was about.
The initial post I responded to, let me say that again, was "Klopp is not good enough for the very top". Nowhere did I say Emery, Simeone, Mourinho, Pep aren't all potentially better.
But while you might be able to find 10 coaches that could reasonably be put ahead of him when trying to assign coaches to the 10 best clubs, that doesn't mean that none of the next 10 qualify for the top coaching positions in European football. I named his European finals as a point for why he does qualify as he is able to get his teams to go far in European cups, which is a perfectly fine, objective, non-personal point to make.
It certainly doesn't warrant this belittling piece of brilliance as a response:

That's a very strange way to look at things; as if you are specifically looking for a way to praise Klopp. How about instead of two European finals, actually winning a European cup.

Unai Emery has won three European Cups with Sevilla. So he is a better manager than Klopp yes? Or does he not play the way you want or show enough passhun?

 

[Rafateria]

But earlier you said they weren't even elite coaches? I'm confused.

Don't be. Klopp is the Liverpool manager so on a United forum any achievements are going to be belittled by default !

 

[sglowrider]

Easy to get confused when you can legally be armed to the teeth, by swearing is still frowned upon.

 

[sglowrider]

True.
Maybe next time Klopp can show a nipple, that will cause a massive freakout.

Probably bleached like his teeth.

 

[montpelier]

he's an overacting showboating two-faced cnut, where's this ''loving the football is the important thing'' bollocks when they haven't won?

 

[montpelier]

I'm not a fan, tbh - .

 

[Trikie]

Jurgen is definitely bisexual, there's no way someone would love doing teams while being done from behind at the same time, he's bi alright.

So if I posted this about Jose or any manager in fact, would that be ok or would I get banned for posting offensive homophobic shite?

 

[Ainu]

It has to be said, if you need a big performance in a big game, there are few better managers in the game than Klopp. He gets his players fired up and their relentless pressing from the front is certainly a sight to behold. When they're up against a team that likes to play, such as City or Arsenal, you know you're in for an enjoyable game of football. Of course, his failings in other areas and his inability to get consistent performances from this team ensure that his Liverpool don't become quite good enough to be really threatening for major silverware. Which just makes it all the more enjoyable for us.

 

[Henrik Larsson]

Yet made it to a Champions League and a Europa League final. While he obviously lost either one, how many coaches even get to say they got to two European finals?

Actually quite a few, 25% of the current managers in the PL have coached their team to two European finals

 

[Lyricist]

Actually quite a few, 25% of the current managers in the PL have coached their team to two European finals

Which is a testament to the fact that the PL has the money and the appeal to attract by far the most foreign star coaches out of Europe's top leagues. ""
Doesn't mean that these coaches are unknown nobodies who mostly wouldn't get jobs at top clubs. Especially considering how many PL clubs are now doing well in Europe again, many of them already are at top clubs.
Mourinho, Wenger, Conte, Pep, Benitez, Klopp...not sure this list of people makes Klopp look as bad as you think.

 

[automaticflare]

That's a very strange way to look at things; as if you are specifically looking for a way to praise Klopp. How about instead of two European finals, actually winning a European cup.

Unai Emery has won three European Cups with Sevilla. So he is a better manager than Klopp yes? Or does he not play the way you want or show enough passhun?

How about Rafa Benitez, he won the league with Valenica twice, and won the CL and EL.

Simeone won La Liga with Atletico and the EL, as well as two CL finals.

The above 3 are not even elite coaches; yet have shown better achievments than Klopp. So Klopp cannot even be compared to elite coaches like Mourinho and Guardiola.

Unmmmm would disagree here.
Think simeone and Rafa are definitely top class elite coaches without a doubt.
Rafa is one of the most underrated managers around and his skill I shrouded somewhat by his meltdown at Liverpool coming up against fergie on here.

He won the champions league with them and got to another final and they were probably the strongest Liverpool team since they last won the league. Including this current side IMO

 

[RooneyLegend]

He's spent close to £300m once Keita is done. Van Gaal also had a very good record against the top teams. He is a good coach but has a lot of flaws.

How much has he sold? he's just lost one of if not their best players. Looking at the amount they've spent without looking at outgoings doesn't make sense. He's got an equal record vs Pep despite never having anywhere close to his resources. That's pretty impressive taking into account how good Pep teams generally are. All coaches have their flaws, as we've finding out with the archaic football our team is producing.

 

[fergosaurus]

How much has he sold? he's just lost one of if not their best players. Looking at the amount they've spent without looking at outgoings doesn't make sense. He's got an equal record vs Pep despite never having anywhere close to his resources. That's pretty impressive taking into account how good Pep teams generally are. All coaches have their flaws, as we've finding out with the archaic football our team is producing.

If we are going to bring net spend into it he's very fortunate to get £142m for Coutinho. They knew Barca had all that Neymar money so had them bent over in the negotiations. Coutinho, Benteke and Sakho fetched him almost £200m which sort of distorts the figures. He has spent a lot of money one way or the other and hasn't much to show for it. I agree his record against Pep is excellent though.

 

[ShadesOfTomato]

He's spent close to £300m once Keita is done. Van Gaal also had a very good record against the top teams. He is a good coach but has a lot of flaws.

Bear in mind Keita and VVD haven't even played yet.

 

[RooneyLegend]

If we are going to bring net spend into it he's very fortunate to get £142m for Coutinho. They knew Barca had all that Neymar money so had them bent over in the negotiations. Coutinho, Benteke and Sakho fetched him almost £200m which sort of distorts the figures. He has spent a lot of money one way or the other and hasn't much to show for it. I agree his record against Pep is excellent though.

Teams take them for a ride too, they've spent 75 million on a defender. The players they've spent money on that you're counting haven't even started playing for them. Of course you have to take that into consideration. They are losing players and signing them with some of the same money and adding more on top. We seem to be the only team that can't make sales at big prices and add that to our already vast investment hence now we cry about money.

 

[Rafateria]

How much has he sold? he's just lost one of if not their best players. Looking at the amount they've spent without looking at outgoings doesn't make sense. He's got an equal record vs Pep despite never having anywhere close to his resources. That's pretty impressive taking into account how good Pep teams generally are. All coaches have their flaws, as we've finding out with the archaic football our team is producing.

Actually I think his record vs Pep over their careers is about 6-3 in Klopp's favour (I forget the actual figures but it's impressive nevertheless - someone posted them just recently). The only manager to have a winning head-to-head against him. Mourinho has a losing record.

 

[adexkola]

Actually I think his record vs Pep over their careers is about 6-3 in Klopp's favour (I forget the actual figures but it's impressive nevertheless - someone posted them just recently). The only manager to have a winning head-to-head against him. Mourinho has a losing record.

6-1-5 in favor of Klopp. Although none of the wins were critical, I hear.

 

[TheLiverBird]

VVD
Keita
Salah
Mané
Ox

and I'm even going to throw Robertson into that mix because he's been absolutely fantastic at LB

There no denying Klopp is bringing in better quality players by far compared to recent years

 

[B20]

Actually quite a few, 25% of the current managers in the PL have coached their team to two European finals

30% actually.

 

[fergosaurus]

Bear in mind Keita and VVD haven't even played yet.

Fair point.

Teams take them for a ride too, they've spent 75 million on a defender. The players they've spent money on that you're counting haven't even started playing for them. Of course you have to take that into consideration. They are losing players and signing them with some of the same money and adding more on top. We seem to be the only team that can't make sales at big prices and add that to our already vast investment hence now we cry about money.

That's also a valid point which perhaps my bias got in the way of! My argument is they have spent a lot regardless of net spend. Having a great record against the top teams is useless unless there is silverwear to show for it. Klopp will ultimately be judged on his success and so far he's won the grand total of feck all and unless they win the FA Cup this season it looks like it will remain that way.

 

[Henrik Larsson]

30% actually.

Shit, Hodgson too hasn't he? Completely forgot about him

 

[giorno]

Shit, Hodgson too hasn't he? Completely forgot about him

Baldy, Mou, FSW, Roy(?), Klopp...who's the other? Wenger?

 

[HisDudeness]

He's actually getting a decent budget at Liverpool. Mane, Salah, Keita and VVD didn't come for peanuts.

VVD. But he had to sell Coutinho to spend that much on VVD. Even José Mourinho would tell you that he would do amazing at United. Pep rates him too.

Klopp would be good for Barca: watch?v=1EytYd4iusQ

You notice the vast majority of passes they play are in front of the players so that the players are running towards the ball. Passes deliberately under-hit, etc. Over-hit, under-hit. slightly away from the player, etc.

Edit: And it's obvious they've been drilled to play this way through training.

Purely based on forwards momentum... even the vast majority of simple passes are through balls.

Sale of Coutinho enabled the huge purchase of VVD. Liverpool are good enough to defy all odds and win the CL... provided they have all of their key players. They are still far ahead of Arsenal.

 

[Leuthen]

6-1-5 in favor of Klopp. Although none of the wins were critical, I hear.

Klopp has won 2 german super cups, so not so sure about non critical wins. The rest of their meeting took place in the league.

 

[Rafateria]

Klopp has won 2 german super cups, so not so sure about non critical wins. The rest of their meeting took place in the league.

How about in the CL - any ?

 

[giorno]

Klopp has won 2 german super cups, so not so sure about non critical wins. The rest of their meeting took place in the league.

Pep lost the supercup all 3 years. Didn't seem like him or bayern gave a feck about it

Klopp also won at the allianz in 2014, well after Bayern had already won the title and had completely switched off in the league

That said, given the difference in quality between the teams and how most of their games(bar the 3-0 in dortmund in '13) were very competitive, you could say that yes, Klopp's teams do tend to match up well with Guardiola's

 

[Henrik Larsson]

Baldy, Mou, FSW, Roy(?), Klopp...who's the other? Wenger?

Exactly.

 

[RooneyLegend]

That's also a valid point which perhaps my bias got in the way of! My argument is they have spent a lot regardless of net spend. Having a great record against the top teams is useless unless there is silverwear to show for it. Klopp will ultimately be judged on his success and so far he's won the grand total of feck all and unless they win the FA Cup this season it looks like it will remain that way.

You talk about spending a lot and not winning but a huge part of his investment hasn't even had the chance to contribute. Honestly, its clear to see he's building something and there are clear signs of progress. We've had the pleasure of seeing Sir Alex build teams and its pretty easy to see when a team is taking shape. They are far from stagnating at this point and pretty much no one would like to face them in the CL.

 

[redman5]

You talk about spending a lot and not winning but a huge part of his investment hasn't even had the chance to contribute. Honestly, its clear to see he's building something and there are clear signs of progress. We've had the pleasure of seeing Sir Alex build teams and its pretty easy to see when a team is taking shape. They are far from stagnating at this point and pretty much no one would like to face them in the CL.

It's worth pointing out too that between 1987 & 1989 Ferguson splashed out an enormous amount of cash on Steve Bruce, Gary Pallister, Paul Ince, Brian McClair, & Mark Hughes. Yet it would be another 4 years before United went on to win their first league title under the Scotsman. Of course, that's not to say Klopp will replicate that - The competition is far greater now for starters - However, it is fair to say it's possible we may be beginning to see our German manager building a squad that is at least capable of putting in a strong challenge for top honours. & this is coming from someone who's never been totally sold on all the hype he's enjoyed after his Dortmund successes.

 

[Kasper]

Pep lost the supercup all 3 years. Didn't seem like him or bayern gave a feck about it

Klopp also won at the allianz in 2014, well after Bayern had already won the title and had completely switched off in the league

That said, given the difference in quality between the teams and how most of their games(bar the 3-0 in dortmund in '13) were very competitive, you could say that yes, Klopp's teams do tend to match up well with Guardiola's

Yeah Klopp's record against Guardiola is heavely skewed by meaningless games. Like you said the two supercup games he won are mostly considered as season warm up friendlies in Germany, add the deadrubber match in 2014 and that's 3 out of his 6 wins meaningless (another win was his cup semifinal that was decided by penalties) while 4 of Guardiola's 5 wins were important ones (3 in the league, one in the cup, although that one had a regular Dortmund goal disallowed in regular time, Bayern won in extra time). His record against Mourinho is more impressive I'd say with the only loss in a game were Dortmund went through anyway.

But overall both are quite impressive when taking into account that Klopp's team always had less quality. Something people should also consider when they blame him for his poor finals record. Apart from Wolfsburg 2015 his team was always the underdog and he barely gets the credit for getting his team to the final in the first place.

 

[Klopper76]

It's worth pointing out too that between 1987 & 1989 Ferguson splashed out an enormous amount of cash on Steve Bruce, Gary Pallister, Paul Ince, Brian McClair, & Mark Hughes. Yet it would be another 4 years before United went on to win their first league title under the Scotsman. Of course, that's not to say Klopp will replicate that - The competition is far greater now for starters - However, it is fair to say it's possible we may be beginning to see our German manager building a squad that is at least capable of putting in a strong challenge for top honours. & this is coming from someone who's never been totally sold on all the hype he's enjoyed after his Dortmund successes.

Good points, although I think Klopp deserves a lot of credit for what he achieved with Dortmund.

It’s why I’d rather we stick with him regardless of where we finish this season (some would probably suggest he deserves the sack if we finish outside the top four and don’t win anything). His style of play is imbedded in the club now and it’d take ages for a new manager to come in and implement new tactics etc.

 

[HisDudeness]

Klopp is a posturing, bumbling clown. He sets teams up to play great attacking stuff though. But the conversation can't be had without discussing his glaring failings. Not good enough for the very top

They get of of Klopp they are f*cked. It's not wise. And besides we like how they play... continental football. He just needs money to make life easier.

But getting of Klopp would be a disaster move. Who else would they get? It would probably be another step backwards to near relegation again. Boards can do stupid things aswell. Another manager comes in, lower league manager, the play style completely changes, then you end up 17th. You don't want to end up with Mark Hughes or somebody.

 

[Rafateria]

Good points, although I think Klopp deserves a lot of credit for what he achieved with Dortmund.

It’s why I’d rather we stick with him regardless of where we finish this season (some would probably suggest he deserves the sack if we finish outside the top four and don’t win anything). His style of play is imbedded in the club now and it’d take ages for a new manager to come in and implement new tactics etc.

TBH I don't really care, as far as keeping the manager is concerned, what we do this season (though obviously finishing 2nd and winning the FAC and CL wouldn't be too bad a start). Keita hasn't arrived yet, VvD will need some time to establish himself and we're activally looking for a new GK (at long last). We are soon going to have a very good team and I want to see what Klopp can do with them over the next few seasons.

 

[Rafateria]

They get of of Klopp they are f*cked. It's not wise. And besides we like how they play... continental football. He just needs money to make life easier.

But getting of Klopp would be a disaster move. Who else would they get? It would probably be another step backwards to near relegation again. Boards can do stupid things aswell. Another manager comes in, lower league manager, the play style completely changes, then you end up 17th.

Indeed. Actually the only people I've seen even suggesting he's not good enough for the top are United fans on a United forum. So no bias there then. Certainly not from media commentators nor club officials or managers within the game. Which would suggest that those commenting on how he's not good enough don't know their arse from their elbow