Jurgen Klopp Sack Watch

[breakout67]

Question for this thread. Why do we constantly look like throwing games away from strong positions?

We were 4-1 up today and City weren’t really threatening, then with a few minutes left we were at 4-3 and looking like we were going to bottle it. We were 3-0 up against Seville and threw that away, and went from 2-0 up to 3-2 down within minutes against Arsenal (we’d looked in complete control up to the point where we went 2-0 up). I he Europa League final was a game we were comfortable in at HT then we fell apart. We were 4-1 up at Arsenal last season and almost threw that away, and went from 3-1 up to 4-3 down at Bournemouth in about 15 minutes.

Is this Klopp’s style of play, or the lack of quality at CB/in goal, tiredness or a combination of factors that causes this?

It just seems like we switch off sometimes.

It's a bit of both.

Klopp does not utilize a specialist DM. This is because of the player profile he looks for in his midfielder. They must be agile, fleet footed, and very energetic. DMs are generally antithetical to the ideal Klopp midfielder; they are quick in the mind rather than with feet and physically imposing. This then puts stress on defenders to be sublime 1v1 defenders, because there is no specialist DM covering them. In the modern game, 1v1 defending is extremely difficult and favours the attacker. All of this means that Klopp teams are glass cannon teams; they can completely annihilate you with their energy, pressing, quick passing.; they can completely capitulate because their defenders become exposed.

You will notice; even when Liverpool sit back in numbers they are still prone to conceding. This is because they do not have a player or two that sniffs out danger. There are not enough people in that team thinking about how to stop attacking players; all the midfielders natural game is to go forward.

However, Liverpool also have two shocking goal keepers, which are often the first step in a capitulation. The defence does not have confidence in the keeper and so put pressure on themselves which leads to mistakes. I think a commanding goalkeeper is a must for Liverpool.

 

[Finn MacCool]

I put it more down to personnel (Klopp has been to loyal to certain players) rather than the system. The number of individual brain farts we have had this season especially is unreal. I don’t think Klopps Dortmund were this prone to collapses, were they?

Our front foot style will leave us more open at times but many of our goals are down to very basic mistakes rather than constantly being caught on the counter.

 

[ShadesOfTomato]

Klopp does not utilize a specialist DM. This is because of the player profile he looks for in his midfielder. They must be agile, fleet footed, and very energetic. DMs are generally antithetical to the ideal Klopp midfielder; they are quick in the mind rather than with feet and physically imposing. This then puts stress on defenders to be sublime 1v1 defenders, because there is no specialist DM covering them. In the modern game, 1v1 defending is extremely difficult and favours the attacker. All of this means that Klopp teams are glass cannon teams; they can completely annihilate you with their energy, pressing, quick passing.; they can completely capitulate because their defenders become exposed.

He does play with a DM. Bender at Dortmund and Can or Henderson at Liverpool - Can today, who was great.

 

[JDoe]

It's a bit of both.

Klopp does not utilize a specialist DM. This is because of the player profile he looks for in his midfielder. They must be agile, fleet footed, and very energetic. DMs are generally antithetical to the ideal Klopp midfielder; they are quick in the mind rather than with feet and physically imposing. This then puts stress on defenders to be sublime 1v1 defenders, because there is no specialist DM covering them. In the modern game, 1v1 defending is extremely difficult and favours the attacker. All of this means that Klopp teams are glass cannon teams; they can completely annihilate you with their energy, pressing, quick passing.; they can completely capitulate because their defenders become exposed.

You will notice; even when Liverpool sit back in numbers they are still prone to conceding. This is because they do not have a player or two that sniffs out danger. There are not enough people in that team thinking about how to stop attacking players; all the midfielders natural game is to go forward.

However, Liverpool also have two shocking goal keepers, which are often the first step in a capitulation. The defence does not have confidence in the keeper and so put pressure on themselves which leads to mistakes. I think a commanding goalkeeper is a must for Liverpool.

Klopp actually loves a true DM and I'm sure he'd love someone like Bender at Pool instead of Can/Henderson who aren't disciplined enough for this role. Dortmund at their best under Klopp was very good at sitting back and countering when they are leading. He simply doesn't have the right players currently for that, that's something else he'll have to address next summer besides a new GK and another CB. I think that when the team is not pressing, their players' (defensive) individual weaknesses are exposed much much more and they concede, albeit the rate they do this season is abnormally high even then.

 

[giorno]

Because they don't know how to do it. Even when they sit back, they're second-guessing themselves, not knowing whether they should just stick to their positions and limit attacks or try to take their chances to counter and score another goal

 

[LilyWhiteSpur]

City gifted it to Liverpool, 10-20 mins of collapse allowed Liverpool to win. I see all this talk of the Liverpool press won it, the press only got them the Mane goal, good play for them Ox's goal. The Firminho and Salah goals were simply gifts, heat finishes granted but should never have had the opportunities.

 

[breakout67]

He does play with a DM. Bender at Dortmund and Can or Henderson at Liverpool - Can today, who was great.

Of course he plays with a DM, I'm talking about a specialist DM. Both Can and Henderson are not specialists DMs. Can is a box to box player and Henderson is a nothing player.

The fact that he has gone for Naby Keita; another non specialist DM, means that he doesnt see it as essential to his system.

Both Mourinho and Guardiola insists on a specialist DM; a midfielder that has the responsibility of protecting the defenders that is extremely aware of danger. Matic and Fernandinho are very good at being specialist DMs. Before that you had Busquets, Xabi Alonso (for both managers, which is not a coincidence they both want the same profile of DM), etc.

 

[utdalltheway]

Question for this thread. Why do we constantly look like throwing games away from strong positions?

We were 4-1 up today and City weren’t really threatening, then with a few minutes left we were at 4-3 and looking like we were going to bottle it.

Do you think taking Saleh off allowed City to move up the field more?

 

[Dumbstar]

City gifted it to Liverpool, 10-20 mins of collapse allowed Liverpool to win. I see all this talk of the Liverpool press won it, the press only got them the Mane goal, good play for them Ox's goal. The Firminho and Salah goals were simply gifts, heat finishes granted but should never have had the opportunities.

So Ederson had plenty of time to take a few touches and calmly pass to a teammate instead of 'gifting' it to Salah for our fourth? Terrible goalkeeper, under zero pressure.

 

[JDoe]

I think Klopp has a very specific pattern of how he wants to set up his team and I think he is aiming to build a similar team with the same set of players as in Dortmund. He had a back-four with two hard-working fullbacks (Piszczek/Schmelzer), one physical CB who was very good on 1v1 (Subotic) and one sweeper who could play long-balls from the back (Hummels).

Then he had a destroyer-type MF who could play short simple passes (Bender) and a technical MF who could dribble and carry the ball (Gündogan), plus four attackers consisting of one true attacking MF who plays almost as a second striker (Kagawa/Götze), in addition to the fluid front three of two fast industrious attackers (Reus/Kuba) and a hard-working centre forward who can link up well (Lewandowski).

Comparing to this Liverpool side VVD is his Hummels, his fullbacks are average but should suffice, Keita is very similar to Dortmund's Gündogan, his front-three are also comparable to those at Dortmund (Firmino being less physical but even harder-working than Lewa, Salah/Mané are comparable to Reus/Kagawa duo), Matip although not being absolutely top-drawer is still a quite capable centre back which means they only need a true destroyer in midfield and a better goalkeeper from being very close to Klopp's prefered setup at Dortmund.

 

[Paxi]

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[Eyepopper]

What a character!

 

[Retrokicks]

How smug from Klopp and how bum licky from the commentators.

Another couple of minutes today and it wouldn't have been so jovial.

Can't wait for this current run to drop apart.

 

[LilyWhiteSpur]

So Ederson had plenty of time to take a few touches and calmly pass to a teammate instead of 'gifting' it to Salah for our fourth? Terrible goalkeeper, under zero pressure.

It was on his wrong foot, simply put it in the stands.

 

[RedCurry]

He can say and do whatever today. He really knew how to beat this City team and he did it by largely beating them at their own game.

 

[Dorian Gray]

Yeah. They're a joy to watch in terms of how well they are technically and tactically coached. That's the sign of a superb manager, at least in attack.

To be honest I've always thought he's a terrific coach of footballer and found his ideas on football great. The man, on the other hand, as Ive discovered during his time at Liverpool, is bloody annoying.

I completely get that. I would have hated him if he was managing United. It is extremely difficult to be objective as a football fan. But trust me, and I think a lot of neutrals would agree, it is tough to hate him. He just brings joy to the game. Ohh and heart attacks. Yes, definitely heart attacks. I have a whatsapp group of friends who follow football and they were all congratulating me at around 70 minutes. Me being a seasoned Liverpool fan, asked them to hold their horses. And the feckers almost proved me right Don't know about trophies but we are definitely the best team for the neutrals.

 

[sglowrider]

It's a mix between the players he signs and the system, imo.

1. Technique and stamina are connected, and to play in a Klopp team you need stamina in abundance. The more tired you are in comparison to your opponents, the more your technique will suffer in crucial moments.

2. When your coach insists on uncompromising attacking football, you essentially create a culture where it's OK to try and fail. This is a dream for players who wish to develop their technique and try things they normally wouldn't dare to do. This may sound great in theory, but you inevitably downplay the importance of defense, which is an artform in itself, and thus you get a team capable of bottling huge leads.

I guess if this is the case, then a typical Klopp player will not be over the ages of 30? He has to ship them out before to get any value.

 

[bktm]

He is fun to watch but would never want him or wanted him in United. It looked like he never knows who to send to see out the game or change the flow, its like watching a fifa, either hammer other or rage at the playground. Sorry to say this but It was really funny how he changed from dancing clown from 4-1 up to raging maniac in just 10 min.
It was a good win though, I doubt VVD can solve their problem. Beat wishes

 

[automaticflare]

I guess if this is the case, then a typical Klopp player will not be over the ages of 30? He has to ship them out before to get any value.

Completely depends the physical demands of English league are much greater than the German league. Any manager who has played outside of England and then come to manage says the same.
Focus is always on intensity and power pace rather than technical ability

 

[Tapori]

Well done.
Hate Liverpool as a club but Klopp really went for it and bar a shaky defence he really hit the mark.
Special mention for tactics in genuinely pressing that awful city backline and some class finishing.
Expect them to overhaul Chelsea.

 

[Mindhunter]

Liverpool did what we should have done. Attacked and asked questions of their sub-par defence and deep-lying playmaker Ederson.

Of course that would have come with us being shaky at the back but what the hell. Rather lose with your head held high.

 

[RooneyLegend]

Hell of a coach, hasn't the resources of other coaches but in head to heads he more than matches them.

 

[Richard Cranium]

Will be banned from the touchline for 2 games give the precedent of Rooney having been banned for doing the same.

 

[utdalltheway]

Banned by NBC maybe

 

[Rob]

Will be banned from the touchline for 2 games give the precedent of Rooney having been banned for doing the same.

Banned for what?

 

[KM]

City gifted it to Liverpool, 10-20 mins of collapse allowed Liverpool to win. I see all this talk of the Liverpool press won it, the press only got them the Mane goal, good play for them Ox's goal. The Firminho and Salah goals were simply gifts, heat finishes granted but should never have had the opportunities.

All four Liverpool goals were very avoidable but that's not the point, the point is that Klopp and Hodgson(somewhat?) proved that once you've a go at City, their defense isn't great at all and will likely give you goals.

 

[ti vu]

All four Liverpool goals were very avoidable but that's not the point, the point is that Klopp and Hodgson(somewhat?) proved that once you've a go at City, their defense isn't great at all and will likely give you goals.

I don't disagree, but that's too simple without a little detail which prove at times to be very important: refereeing.

I will say the ref in this game is quite good compare to the usual white show. The ref is human and can be influenced by other factors. When it comes to United and Mourinho, the media has negative impression which to some extend influence the weak mentally ref. We are treated as villain and we couldn't get fair call from ref in 50 -50 situation.

This game, both teams are darling of the media. There is no one sided pressure on the ref. Seem like this up the ref performance. Let thing goes when needed. Timely blow whistle. Good decision... Small detail but it helps. On other game, Sterling may get the penalty call or Stones got his ass covered by the ref in Firminio challenge

Tactically, it's not exactly master class. L'pool first goal was intially from a long ball and L'pool attacking unit beat City defensive unit to the bouncing ball and physical battle. One sheer moment of individual brilliance by the Ox made the goal. Defensively we can stop both City and L'pool. We lost to City due to Lukaku having a shocker on both part of the pitch losing like every physical battle and 50/50 ball. Chances, City and L'pool can create but they not exactly getting there against us. For our attackers to be in form and we have a creator like Pogba, our chance on counter attack should be better than the showing in these 2 matches.

In the first half, City still edged L'pool. At the beginning of second half, City still had this edge and had Otamendi scored instead of hitting the bar, the game might be very different which could have killed L'pool momentum. City was blown apart afterward, but as you can see, they have ability to get goals. Had they limited just one goal, they're coming out of this with a draw. They were pretty much close to this draw regardless in reality. Pep pretty much said the same in post match about his team lost control between the conceded goals, but if the game was longer City has the ability to get back into it.

Also remember, City lost Jesus (Pep's preferred forward) and David Silva in this game, which they were fortunately having their service prior in other games.

 

[fishfingers15]

I put it more down to personnel (Klopp has been to loyal to certain players) rather than the system. The number of individual brain farts we have had this season especially is unreal. I don’t think Klopps Dortmund were this prone to collapses, were they?

Our front foot style will leave us more open at times but many of our goals are down to very basic mistakes rather than constantly being caught on the counter.

I was hearing a podcast last week about Irish mythical figure Finn MacCool and I was just wondering how the feck that I post in a forum with a lot of Irish people and have never come across this name and I find you today. Good man

 

[Sied]

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[sglowrider]

The weirdest thing is that a lot of people seem to think that the Americans are more open-minded about sex and swear words when its so far from the truth. Puritanical attitudes and political correctness have censored half the population.

Europeans are just more open-minded and tolerant in comparison.

 

[OneFootball]

You switch off because you don't have the mental strength of a great team. Basically, you don't know how to react when things either aren't going your way, or you just don't have to keep trying to win the game. The ability to play in the moment. You don't have a team of world class players so when you switch off all of their limitations come to the fore. And you haven't learned to slow things down and control games without trying hard to score

It's a similar deal for a lot of teams similar to you right now. Napoli last season for example. Your defenders and midfielders are very very average or below average at passive defending, and your keepers have so many mistakes in them, so you your collapses are more spectacular than say, Napoli's.

It's a learning curve. Better players will help too, but i don't think you'll have this problem next season

In part its Klopp’s style of play which he is sticking rigidly and adhering to despite the fact that he doesn’t have all his players in to adequately play that system. The other reason is individual errors - this is due to lack of quality in those defensive positions. At present I think that we need 4 players before the start of next season - keeper, CB and 2 CM’s. Klopp’s teams will never be defensively miserable due to his style but we do need to be more stringent.

 

[Rafateria]

The weirdest thing is that a lot of people seem to think that the Americans are more open-minded about sex and swear words when its so far from the truth. Puritanical attitudes and political correctness have censored half the population.

Europeans are just more open-minded and tolerant in comparison.

The power of Hollywood.

 

[Wednesday at Stoke]

Surprised the rumors have quieted down on possible links to Bayern.

 

[SER19]

Klopp is a posturing, bumbling clown. He sets teams up to play great attacking stuff though. But the conversation can't be had without discussing his glaring failings. Not good enough for the very top

 

[fergosaurus]

Hell of a coach, hasn't the resources of other coaches but in head to heads he more than matches them.

He's spent close to £300m once Keita is done. Van Gaal also had a very good record against the top teams. He is a good coach but has a lot of flaws.

 

[Lyricist]

Klopp is a posturing, bumbling clown. He sets teams up to play great attacking stuff though. But the conversation can't be had without discussing his glaring failings. Not good enough for the very top

Yet made it to a Champions League and a Europa League final. While he obviously lost either one, how many coaches even get to say they got to two European finals?

 

[Mourinhonista]

Jurgen is definitely bisexual, there's no way someone would love doing teams while being done from behind at the same time, he's bi alright.

 

[JustFootballFan]

The weirdest thing is that a lot of people seem to think that the Americans are more open-minded about sex and swear words when its so far from the truth. Puritanical attitudes and political correctness have censored half the population.

Europeans are just more open-minded and tolerant in comparison.

True.
Maybe next time Klopp can show a nipple, that will cause a massive freakout.

 

[SER19]

Yet made it to a Champions League and a Europa League final. While he obviously lost either one, how many coaches even get to say they got to two European finals?

Not many. It's a good achievement. But not good enough for the very top, which is what I said originally.

 

[Lyricist]

Not many. It's a good achievement. But not good enough for the very top, which is what I said originally.

I'm not convinced getting Dortmund from almost bankruptcy and almost being relegated into the final of the Champions League is just "good".