La Liga - 2014/15

Skorenzy

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The Man Himself said:
On what basis Costa was 'head & shoulders' above Ronaldo in league? Ronaldo's stats show 31 goals, 9 assists in 31 games. Costa's show 27 goals and 3 assists in 34 games. A wide forward having that kind of stat than a striker can no way be 'head & shoulders' below. If it is midfielder, yeah we can't compare purely in terms of goals but if Costa, a striker, was that much better, it should reflect in stats, simple as. Don't tell me how he brought others in game etc, because that these big 2 do anyway on regular basis.

In the end, whether it is Atletico last season, or Germany in world cup or Bayern a year ago, it was a collective effort where many players shone and did very well. That doesn't mean those players were better than Ronaldo & Messi individually. Atletico aren't doing too bad without Costa even replacing him with someone of lesser skills in Mandzukic. RM and Barca however, will become considerably worse if Ronaldo & Messi were to leave. Imagine a Real side replacing Ronaldo with Bale (a very good player) and hoping for 18 games winning streak. Impossible.
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On the basis that I watched the vast majority of games involving these players and in my opinion his performances were equally consistent, more influential and more impressive. On the basis that Diego Costa scoring 27 league goals for Atlético is a far, far harder and far more impressive feat than Cristiano scoring 31 for RM or Messi scoring 28 for Barça in roughly the same amount of games (the latter both teams that cracked the 100-goal barrier, in contrast to Atléti's 77 which is closer to fourth highest scorers Sevilla's 69).

Re: bold, because this somehow doesn't apply to Cristiano and Messi? It's always a collective effort where many players shine in teams that are fighting for the biggest honours. With Germany or Bayern I could at least understand the reasoning behind it (no stand-out player in terms of goals/assists), even if I don't agree with it. In this case, Diego Costa was clearly the stand-out player in terms of "productivity", scoring at least twice as many league goals as the next highest scorer in his team (Villa with 13), an even better proportion as Cristiano and Messi. Tell me, which Atlético player would be Bale's (15 goals, 12 assists in 27 league games) equivalent? Or Benzema's (17 goals, 9 assists in 35 games)? Alexis Sánchez's (19 goals, 10 assists in 34 games)? Even bloody Pedro (15 goals, 8 assists in 37 games). It's not the most sizeable sample ever, but it still says quite a lot: in the 3 league games Diego Costa missed Atléti only scored 4 goals (1.33 gpg), compared to Barça's 20 goals in 7 games without Messi (2.86 gpg) or RM's 25 in 8 games without Cristiano (3.13 gpg). But, yeah, Diego Costa's supporting cast made all the difference here, clearly.


bosnian_red said:
Sorry but I don't agree with that at all, or at least not with the Messi and Ronaldo part. They are being judged on their own standards that they set, and compared to the other players and their own individual standards. Are you seriously going to tell me that judging them both from the same level, that Vela was better then Messi last season? He had a great season for his own standards, Messi had a poor one for his own standards, but that's not how you judge them. You judge them from the same standard when discussing personal honors and Messi's 'poor' season was still way better then how anyone else performed apart from Cristiano Ronaldo. It does effectively rule out anyone else winning it while those 2 are playing, as it should though. Nobody else comes close to those 2 productivity wise even when they have poor seasons. Best player rewards aren't made to make some people feel good and recognize the players who improved a lot and had great personal seasons. They're made to recognize the best player in that year (or best forward, best midfielder, best defender, etc. ). It's not fair to compare the players to their own previous standards and rule one out like Messi because his worse year still beats Vela's great year.

Also farce that Ronaldo won it? Please. He scored more goals then Costa, and had more assists playing as a wide forward, compared to Costa is a striker. He had a great season individually, but he has never been a patch on Ronaldo and never will be. Ridiculous to say otherwise.
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I do judge them equally and I don't take Messi's or Cristiano's "previous standards" into account, I never said otherwise. At the end I factor in a lot of context though (quality of team mates, league, opponents; quality ánd quantity of goals, assists, chances created, build-up play; their position/role, influence/impact on team performances ánd results and on winning trophies, etc.). It should be obvious to everyone that the "productivity" Cristiano and Messi are displaying is significantly linked to the teams they are playing for and team mates they are playing with. But apparently it isn't obvious. "Nobody else comes close to those 2 productivity wise even when they have poor seasons." Explain this to me then.

Minutes per goals+assists, La Liga (2009-14). Just Barça/RM players + Falcao for context. Not including the current season.
- Messi, 55' (five seasons)
- Cristiano, 62' (five seasons)
- Higuaín, 74' (four seasons)
- Bale 77' (one season)
- Benzema, 91' (five seasons)
- Alexis Sánchez, 92' (three seasons)
- Neymar 103' (one season)
- Falcao, 104' (two seasons)

Minutes per goals+assists, CL (2009-14). Just Barça/RM players, not including the current season.
- Cristiano 70' (five seasons)
- Messi 73' (five seasons)
- Benzema 73' (five seasons)
- Bale 88' (one season)
- Neymar 111' (one season)
- Higuaín 147' (four seasons)
- Alexis Sánchez 226' (three seasons)

As if any other team in Spain could ever even come close to having more than 1 forward producing at such an absurd rate, ie. at least a goal or an assist around or better than every 90 minute, over multiple seasons. If Diego Costa then manages to come close to this level of output, I don't see how you can't think that is more impressive considering his supporting cast is nowhere near such numbers. If that player also performs at a similar level to Cristiano/Messi throughout the season, with more stand-out performances in general and in important matches as well, then that is how I arrive at my opinion that Diego Costa and Vela were among, if not outright, the two best forwards in La Liga last season. (and if even the inept LFP agrees -- yes, agrees, I already called it back in May :smirk: -- that these two names belong in the top-3 at least, then you know I'm not just spouting bs for the sake of it.)
 

The Man Himself

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@Skorenzy That's pretty long post so I won't quote but reply otherwise.
Granted Costa had fantastic season, but that doesn't make his season head & shoulders above Ronaldo or Messi. Even if he was stand out in terms of goal scoring in his team, that doesn't mean his feat was better individually than other two. In the end, he was striker of the champion team. He was their main scoring outlet and from what I saw they struggled to score when he was not there. This does tell that they relied on him on scoring. This doesn't lead to conclusion that he was league's best striker. He was very important to Atletico winning title, yes, not league's best striker or player.
One can use stats whichever way. One can say that, even with other goal scoring outlets like Benzema/Bale or Neymar/Pedro, these two still scored/assisted so many whereas Atletico relied on Costa heavily and that was his role, so it is not surprise he got 27 in 34. Atletico scored only 77 in league whereas RM/Barca scored 100+. So the differential factor in deciding title was not conceding key goals, for which credit goes to their defense.

I would agree with you more if you say someone like Godin or Miranda who were immense, should have been La Liga's best player as Atleti's miserly defense won them the title imo. Best striker, it was fair to give it to Ronaldo.
 

Cait Sith

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The usual gifs:













Aaaand putting in a shift :eek::






@Skorenzy Would you agree Messi is looking sharper and more dynamic now physically?
 

amolbhatia50k

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Skorenzy said:
On the basis that Diego Costa scoring 27 league goals for Atlético is a far, far harder and far more impressive feat than Cristiano scoring 31 for RM or Messi scoring 28 for Barça in roughly the same amount of games (the latter both teams that cracked the 100-goal barrier, in contrast to Atléti's 77 which is closer to fourth highest scorers Sevilla's 69).

Diego Costa was clearly the stand-out player in terms of "productivity", scoring at least twice as many league goals as the next highest scorer in his team (Villa with 13), an even better proportion as Cristiano and Messi. Tell me, which Atlético player would be Bale's (15 goals, 12 assists in 27 league games) equivalent? Or Benzema's (17 goals, 9 assists in 35 games)? Alexis Sánchez's (19 goals, 10 assists in 34 games)? Even bloody Pedro (15 goals, 8 assists in 37 games). It's not the most sizeable sample ever, but it still says quite a lot: in the 3 league games Diego Costa missed Atléti only scored 4 goals (1.33 gpg), compared to Barça's 20 goals in 7 games without Messi (2.86 gpg) or RM's 25 in 8 games without Cristiano (3.13 gpg). But, yeah, Diego Costa's supporting cast made all the difference here, clearly.
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Very very interesting. Does make Costa's season seem like the most impressive. His contribution to atletico's goal tally and lack of other goslscorers is vital.
 

Skorenzy

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Cait Sith said:
The usual gifs:

@Skorenzy Would you agree Messi is looking sharper and more dynamic now physically?
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I would say that he is definitely at his best level since his injury v PSG back in 2013 which started off a relative decline of his physical abilities and his performances, yes. Back to pre-2013 levels? Not yet, although his role in the link-up between MF and FW seems even more significant nowadays, without a prime Xavi and Iniesta in the team. His finishing is also becoming more consistent again, but his dribbling is still nowhere near what it was at his peak (he has a lot more trouble to get past the first man nowadays, let alone two, so his dribbling v Espanyol was a welcome return to that wonderful ability of going past several opponents in quick succession that he displayed at his peak). Overall he's indeed looking more dynamic again, now just needs to find that consistency again and try to limit performances such as against Málaga, RM, Celta and Almería this season. His playmaking has been wonderful to watch, but at the moment the team isn't getting enough out of Neymar ánd Suárez, so that could still yet improve even more.
 

Marcosdeto

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Skorenzy said:
I would say that he is definitely at his best level since his injury v PSG back in 2013 which started off a relative decline of his physical abilities and his performances, yes. Back to pre-2013 levels? Not yet, although his role in the link-up between MF and FW seems even more significant nowadays, without a prime Xavi and Iniesta in the team. His finishing is also becoming more consistent again, but his dribbling is still nowhere near what it was at his peak (he has a lot more trouble to get past the first man nowadays, let alone two, so his dribbling v Espanyol was a welcome return to that wonderful ability of going past several opponents in quick succession that he displayed at his peak). Overall he's indeed looking more dynamic again, now just needs to find that consistency again and try to limit performances such as against Málaga, RM, Celta and Almería this season. His playmaking has been wonderful to watch, but at the moment the team isn't getting enough out of Neymar ánd Suárez, so that could still yet improve even more.
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messi's performances are disguising Luis Enrique's lack of coaching knowledge

the idiot has luis suarez, neymar and messi, and depends on the latest to make some magic and come to resque him

of course you wont see him dribbling players as when iniesta and xavi where fit, because now, the defenders can concentrate more on stopping him than in stopping him, iniesta and xavi

so every time messi has the ball, instead of one player he has two or three waiting for him
 

Skorenzy

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Marcosdeto said:
messi's performances are disguising Luis Enrique's lack of coaching knowledge

the idiot has luis suarez, neymar and messi, and depends on the latest to make some magic and come to resque him

of course you wont see him dribbling players as when iniesta and xavi where fit, because now, the defenders can concentrate more on stopping him than in stopping him, iniesta and xavi

so every time messi has the ball, instead of one player he has two or three waiting for him
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That was always the case from the moment he became a false nine though, it's a fairly simple reasoning I'm making here: either it's because Messi himself has physically declined relative to his 2008-12 peak, or it's because of the break with the Guardiola/Vilanova-era system, where a quick possession game high up the opponent's defensive third was the key to chance creation, because two of the best "possession players" ever, Xavi and Iniesta, have declined severely as well, or a combination of both aforementioned factors (which is the way I'm leaning). The remarkable thing is that Messi has coped quite well with it anyway; his hi-intensity, short-burst game and his stocky physique aren't built for sustained physical exertions over long periods and large surface areas, but his influence on games still remains peerless for a forward (in a contemporary sense). There is a limit to it though obviously, even for him, as you could see for example that his action radius dwindled at the WC from the moment that Argentina were forced to play more defensively due to the injuries to Di María and Agüero. For Martino/Lucho-era Barça the differences aren't that big compared to before (even if it's more geared up towards directness and verticality, possession game is still a prominent feature), so he continues to produce big numbers.
 

Marcosdeto

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Skorenzy said:
That was always the case from the moment he became a false nine though, it's a fairly simple reasoning I'm making here: either it's because Messi himself has physically declined relative to his 2008-12 peak, or it's because of the break with the Guardiola/Vilanova-era system, where a quick possession game high up the opponent's defensive third was the key to chance creation, because two of the best "possession players" ever, Xavi and Iniesta, have declined severely as well, or a combination of both aforementioned factors (which is the way I'm leaning). The remarkable thing is that Messi has coped quite well with it anyway; his hi-intensity, short-burst game and his stocky physique aren't built for sustained physical exertions over long periods and large surface areas, but his influence on games still remains peerless for a forward (in a contemporary sense). There is a limit to it though obviously, even for him, as you could see for example that his action radius dwindled at the WC from the moment that Argentina were forced to play more defensively due to the injuries to Di María and Agüero. For Martino/Lucho-era Barça the differences aren't that big compared to before (even if it's more geared up towards directness and verticality, possession game is still a prominent feature), so he continues to produce big numbers.
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yes. you make very good points

cant argue against them

still, i think that if messi had a better coach, his numbers would be even better
 
Matchday 15 - 13 Dec: Getafe decide La Liga?

jojojo

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This weekend in La Liga

Tonight (from the BBC so all times are UK)
Almeria V Real Madrid 19:45

Sat 13 Dec 2014 - Spanish La Liga
Getafe v Barcelona 15:00
Valencia v Rayo Vallecano 17:00
Córdoba v Levante 19:00
Málaga v Celta de Vigo 21:00

Sun 14 Dec 2014 - Spanish La Liga
Espanyol v Granada CF 11:00
Sevilla v Eibar 16:00
Atl Madrid v Villarreal 18:00
Real Sociedad v Ath Bilbao 20:00

Mon 15 Dec 2014 - Spanish La Liga
Deportivo de La Coruña v Elche 19:45

Real Madrid are on a 19 game winning streak, the best ever run by a Spanish top flight club. Almeria don't look like the team to stop it, but stranger things have happened. They won't play in Spain again until January (and nor will Sevilla). They've already finished their Copa matches and their match with Sevilla was postponed to allow them to go to the Club World Cup.

If Barca win their pre-Christmas games they'll be back on top of La Liga. Getafe are as mid-table as it gets, but they drew with Barca at the Camp Nou in May, so they can play. There's also a quirk in the match history as a predictor for the Liga title.
12/13 (Week 4): Getafe 1-4 Barcelona (Champions Barcelona)
11/12 (Week 14): Getafe 1-0 Barcelona (Champions Real Madrid)
10/11 (Week 10): Getafe 1-3 Barcelona (Champions Barcelona)
09/10 (Week 2): Getafe 0-2 Barcelona (Champions Barcelona)
08/09 (Week 31): Getafe 0-1 Barcelona (Champions Barcelona)
07/08 (Week 12): Getafe 2-0 Barcelona (Champions Real Madrid)
06/07 (Week 17): Getafe 1-1 Barcelona (Champions Real Madrid)
05/06 (Week 10): Getafe 1-3 Barcelona (Champions Barcelona)
04/05 (Week 13): Getafe 1-2 Barcelona (Champions Barcelona)
The run failed last year when the score was 2-5 to Barcelona and yet, Atletico won La Liga. So it may just predict whether they'll finish ahead of Real Madrid. :smirk:

Atletico have a potentially tough match with Villareal, but Atletico after a couple of wobbles are starting to look like last season's Atletico again. Could be a good match.

The other standout is Real Sociedad V Athletic - the Basque derby. Important for the fans as well as the points.
 
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Bob Loblaw

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Ah, Garry Birtles co-commentator, he wrecks games with his negativity :(
 

Bob Loblaw

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Wow. Benzema free in the middle for a tap in but Bale plays across a league 2 standard pass, really bad.
 

Raul Madrid

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Lovely goal by Isco. A great piece of individual class like that was needed to make the breakthrough.
 

Borys

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I wonder if we could do the same with Januzaj what they did with Isco. He's been a regular for them and looks much better than in the previous season.
 
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