La Liga 2017/18

[FootballHQ]

Barca generally struggle away in CL nowadays, have a look at their away results last few years. Easier to make Messi out of the game or disrupt his influence of course.

I fancy Bayern Munich to win CL this year so could see them beating Barca 2-0 at Allianz and then just getting over the line at Camp Nou.

 

[FootballHQ]

La Liga top scorers:

Messi- 23 goals
Suarez- 20 goals
Iago Aspas- 16 goals
Griezmann- 15 goals
Ronaldo- 14 goals

Stuani- 14 goals.

 

[Migo]

My prediction from the start of the season that Barca will got get past the QF of the UCL. I also thought they will struggle in the league and CDR was the only trophy they have a good chance at. i still think they won't win the UCL, probably an English team this year will win it.

But in the end if EV managed to win La liga and CDR (and he is very close) it will be a really great accomplishment given the state Barca was in when he got the job. Though next season he will face a bigger test, this season fans are ok with average displays as long as he gets the job done, but next season he will need to sort out all the flaws in the team and play more entertaining football.

 

[RedMessiah]

Not at all. Your entire post is built on paper rather than the ground reality. I'm not underrating anyone. I think Coutinho and Dembele are excellent footballers. I rate Suarez as the best CF in (very) recent memory. I think their defense had been superb. And Busquets will to down as one of the greats of his generation.

However, none of that negates the fact evident from watching this football team is over reliant on Messi. And to claim that it's the same as any team and their star player I rubbish. Watch any other top team and they don't rely overly on one bloke to drop deep and dictate, create chances and score goals. Yes Messi is unique in that he does all of that which means you're going to utilize those skills. But the extent to which I see them offering not enough in attack from other areas is different.

So the defence and Busquets are irrelevant to this specific discussion. The lack of wide threat like a (inform) Bale, Sane, Robben etc. is a problem coupled with Suarez's tendancy these days to score 7 in 2 and then look like garbage in the next 2.

Of course I believe Coutinho and Dembele can change all of that but as of now I see an over dependence. These are a rich man's problems obviously given they're still a terrific team. But the margins at the very top are slight.

Great post. They do rely too much on Messi, and when he dropped a bit in the second half, it became quite clear. I don't know why Valverde gives Vidal so many chances, he's average at best, and doesn't use Dembele. Even if he's been shaky for most of his time at Barça, you need to give him the chance to play more often if you want him to step up his level, the potential is clearly there.

Paulinho has only one thing to offer, and it's that he gets himself in goalscoring positions with good off-the-ball movements and a striker's instinct. Other than that, he's a pretty mediocre player and I don't see him starting for Barcelona for a lot longer. He could be a good sub, though, if used correctly.

 

[carvajal]

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A final for Depor,Koval in goal and Eibar fighting for Europa league

 

[carvajal]

Great debut for Koval

 

[Ishdalar]

Suarez has scored in 45% of the games he's played this season, his goal distribution through games is completely normal and it's not true he's scoring goals in bunches any more than any other goalscorers do. Messi has scored in 50% of games as a comparison. Of course if you exclude their defense they're going to lack a wide threat when on the left they have the best fullback in the world going forward so far this season and on the right they have Semedo and Sergi Roberto who do a very good job themselves. Their fullbacks are the players who provide that width.

This wasn't my point though, you said you didn't believe they will win the Champions League because they're too reliant on Messi when they've actually won the Champions League before being as reliant on him as they are now. This team played without Messi in Turin against the Champions League finalists and were the better team without Messi, Dembele or Coutinho on the pitch. Obviously he's their best player and if they want to win a competition like the Champions League he'll have to be at his best but that's the case for pretty much any football team.

I completely disagree with your second paragraph, Barcelona do not overly rely on Messi to drop deep, create and score goals. Suarez has pretty much been scoring just as much as Messi this season and Messi's actually having his worse goalscoring season in 10 years. Neymar's been the only player this season who both creates and scores more than Messi, but there are several players who create more and there are several players who score more. Imo the drop in quality would be a lot bigger if Liverpool lost Salah or Tottenham lost Kane for example.

All is fine with your post talking about goals, but when you check that Barcelona has scored 69 goals in the league, and Messi scored 23 and assisted 12 you might start to grasp its not only about raw scoring, he amounts for 51% of Barcelona goals, and that's leaving out things like secondary assists or plays that he initiates and creates advantage.

And we talk about La Liga, where you face worse teams than in the UCL knockout stage and Messi rests or other players have an easier time, in the bigger games if there's no Messi, there's no Barcelona. We used to have Neymar to make the difference when Messi was well covered by 2/3 defenders, but now without him the midfield will look awful and Suarez will live in an island hoping to fish a goal.

And to your bolded part, the only player who creates more in the top 4 leagues (Bundesliga, EPL, Serie A, La Liga) is KDB, with Messi being close to him (2 assists less and 0.4 KP), for us, Messi moves the team like De Bruyne, while at the same time scoring like Salah, if you think losing Salah would be bad for Liverpool then you can't start to grasp how bad it's for us when someone manages to shut down Leo

He is the alpha ant the omega of this team, that shows everywhere from the pitch to his wages, anyone that watches us frequently knows that, if you haven't watched or paid attention, there's also those stats to show how big he is for us.

 

[Peyroteo]

@Ishdalar

I don't really know what progressive runs and passes are or what that's meant to say.

And to your bolded part, the only player who creates more in the top 4 leagues (Bundesliga, EPL, Serie A, La Liga) is KDB, with Messi being close to him (2 assists less and 0.4 KP), for us, Messi moves the team like De Bruyne, while at the same time scoring like Salah

This is not really true. Salah has scored more goals with nearly 400 less minutes played for example.

There are several players who both assist more or have more key passes in the top 5 leagues. Neymar, De Bruyne, Ozil, Eriksen, etc. Then there are plenty of players who score more often. Neymar, Salah, Kane, Ronaldo, Cavani, Aguero, Immobile, etc.

Messi does plenty of both and obviously Barcelona will rely on him, I'm just saying it's pretty much the same way it's been for the past 10 years and that there's no reason to say Barcelona won't win the Champions League or that they aren't one of the favourites because of it. Saying this team is 'all Messi' when it's full of players who've been the best in the world in their positions so far this season is not fair and most of this Barcelona squad isn't getting the credit they deserve imo.

 

[Ishdalar]

@Ishdalar

I don't really know what progressive runs and passes are or what that's meant to say.

This is not really true. Salah has scored more goals with nearly 400 less minutes played for example.

There are several players who both assist more or have more key passes in the top 5 leagues. Neymar, De Bruyne, Ozil, Eriksen, etc.

Only Neymar and KDB beat Messi in both stats, and marginally, also French league with PSG by the way.

Spoiler

Then there are plenty of players who score more often. Neymar, Salah, Kane, Ronaldo, Cavani, Aguero, Immobile, etc.

Messi does plenty of both and obviously Barcelona will rely on him, I'm just saying it's pretty much the same way it's been for the past 10 years and that there's no reason to say Barcelona won't win the Champions League or that they aren't one of the favourites because of it. Saying this team is 'all Messi' when it's full of players who've been the best in the world in their positions so far this season is not fair and most of this Barcelona squad isn't getting the credit they deserve imo.

Spoiler

So basically, he's "almost" a Harry Kane and a De Bruyne in stats, but because he falls a little behind in both situations, then he's not so important for Barcelona as they are for City or Spurs, is that it?.

And still, there's really almost no point in comparing stats this season, specially with forward players as Messi has a role way deeper than Kane or Salah, yet he manages to match their scoring output, if by March you think aspirations in Barcelona don't rest 80% on Messi's left foot, then there's no way you can see things other way.

And as good as Umtiti, Pique and Busquets have been so far, it's still 3 dedicated defenders (with Sergi and Rakitic as firefighters) vs teams that defend with 5 or 8 players, sometimes quantity prevails over quality, we might defend good, but if they defend better and are able to put a leash on Leo, the game goes to set pieces or flip coins, there's no favourites in flip coins, and we certainly aren't one of the best UCL teams at set pieces.

 

[jojojo]

Bale in the right place at the right time (and no defenders anywhere near) opens the scoring for Madrid.

 

[Peyroteo]

So basically, he's "almost" a Harry Kane and a De Bruyne in stats, but because he falls a little behind in both situations, then he's not so important for Barcelona as they are for City or Spurs, is that it?.

But he's not almost a Harry Kane and a De Bruyne in stats, it's a big difference at the top level. De Bruyne is creating a lot more and Kane is scoring a lot more. Plenty of players are scoring more actually and despite him having his worse goalscoring season in a decade, Barcelona still look very strong. As for Neymar being with PSG in the french league, he was doing the exact same thing at Barcelona.

It's not as if there's aren't any examples of it, Barcelona played away at Juve and were the better team without Messi, away at Chelsea Messi was pretty quiet and even before the Messi goal Barcelona were the better team despite the result.

I do think Kane's more important for Spurs but De Bruyne for City is not. That's not supported on any stats, just my opinion from the games I've watched

 

[NieThePiet]

Good pass from Benzema and nice Ronaldo finish.

 

[RobinLFC]

That was not a penalty for me, and not offside from Ronaldo obviously.

 

[SirAnderson]

How the heck was that a pen????

 

[NieThePiet]

spanish refs, wtf..

 

[SirAnderson]

That should have been considered a brilliant "last ditch" challenge, but never a pen

 

[SirAnderson]

What was that disallowed for now? Pushing?

 

[NieThePiet]

clear goal, no offside and it's called offside.

what is going on.

edit: or the push was called? need another replay.

 

[SirAnderson]

Is there any good refs anymore in any country. Really, Spanish English, French, you name the league and the norm is shite reffing.

 

[SirAnderson]

clear goal, no offside and it's called offside.

what is going on.

edit: or the push was called? need another replay.

Very very soft for me, but anyway, and its the linesman that calls it, who probably was looking at the back of the players not even a good angle.

 

[NieThePiet]

Marcelo Ronaldo Combi, 3:1.

 

[Santi_Mesut_Alexis_87]

One of the best games i have watched from Real this season. They basically did everything ok. The front 3 and Isco were superb.

 

[Ishdalar]

But he's not almost a Harry Kane and a De Bruyne in stats, it's a big difference at the top level. De Bruyne is creating a lot more and Kane is scoring a lot more. Plenty of players are scoring more actually and despite him having his worse goalscoring season in a decade, Barcelona still look very strong. As for Neymar being with PSG in the french league, he was doing the exact same thing at Barcelona.

It's not as if there's aren't any examples of it, Barcelona played away at Juve and were the better team without Messi, away at Chelsea Messi was pretty quiet and even before the Messi goal Barcelona were the better team despite the result.

I do think Kane's more important for Spurs but De Bruyne for City is not. That's not supported on any stats, just my opinion from the games I've watched

First, 5 goals or 2 assists is not "a lot more", is barely more, with the distinction that they're both specialists for their teams, and Messi is doing two jobs at the same time, creating AND scoring.

Second, Neymar scored 20 goals in 45 games last season, 31 in 49 two seasons ago, with PSG he was already at 28 goals in 30 games, playing for PSG doubled his output, he wasn't doing neither the exact same thing or anything barely at that level in Barcelona.

And I still don't get the Juve example, you mean the game we draw 0-0 without Messi, or the one with Messi that Barcelona stomped them and Messi scored two goals?. Because if the difference between him in or out it's a 0-0 and a "decent game" or a 3-0...

Anyway, if you want to see what Messi brings to the team start watching every game and notice all the "new" things he brings when he's 50/60 meters away from the goal with 4 Barcelona players ahead of him,. If you just want to diminish what he's doing into "He doesn't score like Kane and assist like KDB at the same time" then right on, keep going.

 

[Peyroteo]

First, 5 goals or 2 assists is not "a lot more", is barely more, with the distinction that they're both specialists for their teams, and Messi is doing two jobs at the same time, creating AND scoring.

Second, Neymar scored 20 goals in 45 games last season, 31 in 49 two seasons ago, with PSG he was already at 28 goals in 30 games, playing for PSG doubled his output, he wasn't doing neither the exact same thing or anything barely at that level in Barcelona.

And I still don't get the Juve example, you mean the game we draw 0-0 without Messi, or the one with Messi that Barcelona stomped them and Messi scored two goals?. Because if the difference between him in or out it's a 0-0 and a "decent game" or a 3-0...

Anyway, if you want to see what Messi brings to the team start watching every game and notice all the "new" things he brings when he's 50/60 meters away from the goal with 4 Barcelona players ahead of him,. If you just want to diminish what he's doing into "He doesn't score like Kane and assist like KDB at the same time" then right on, keep going.

5 goals and 2 assists is a lot when Messi is playing a lot more minutes compared to pretty much everyone else. If the others are playing a lot less and scoring more, that has to be taken into account.

I meant the creating part about Neymar, his goalscoring went up in Paris although that's also due to his change in position rather than him just playing against worse teams. He can take freekicks and penalties now and he's playing closer to goal.

For the Juve game, I mean that for a team which supposedly is 'all Messi' and '80% of their success is on Messi's feet' they played away against Juventus and were the better team without Messi on the pitch. Isn't that relevant? Valverde has improved the solidity and cynicism of the team which is a big plus in those big games which was what this discussion was about.

 

[It's B Rubble]

Viva Ronaldo. A ghost on the pitch and then BOOM! Perfect timing, goal right before being subbed for an "injury"

 

[Ishdalar]

5 goals and 2 assists is a lot when Messi is playing a lot more minutes compared to pretty much everyone else. If the others are playing a lot less and scoring more, that has to be taken into account.

I meant the creating part about Neymar, his goalscoring went up in Paris although that's also due to his change in position rather than him just playing against worse teams. He can take freekicks and penalties now and he's playing closer to goal.

For the Juve game, I mean that for a team which supposedly is 'all Messi' and '80% of their success is on Messi's feet' they played away against Juventus and were the better team without Messi on the pitch. Isn't that relevant? Valverde has improved the solidity and cynicism of the team which is a big plus in those big games which was what this discussion was about.

The "if" part it's that Messi has played 3.393 minutes, KDB 3.333 and Harry Kane 3.098

De Bruyne and Messi are virtually in the same minutes and Harry Kane has played 295 minutes less, scoring at the same ratio that would mean Kane would have 3 extra goals, taking the difference from 4 to 7 goals, still not "a lot" if you keep in mind that Messi is producing almost on equal terms with De Bruyne, and only has 7 goals less than Harry Kane, that's the perspective we're looking at with Leo in this Barcelona side.

Also, you literally said

and Suarez has been the best striker in the world for the past few months.

There are several players who both assist more or have more key passes in the top 5 leagues. Neymar, De Bruyne, Ozil, Eriksen, etc. Then there are plenty of players who score more often. Neymar, Salah, Kane, Ronaldo, Cavani, Aguero, Immobile, etc.

How?, when Suarez has 8 goals less than Leo and 12 less than Kane (with more minutes).

When you talk of the global picture, we are favourites despite Messi having bad games, when you start looking individually, every team depends more on their star players because they have one certain player that slightly edges Messi at one thing, when Leo excels at two things at the same time, with the list of names you're using, we're too far from being favourites

Spurs have Kane (better scorer than both Barcelona strikers), Dele Alli (more assists than Messi) and Eriksen (better at creating).

Psg have Cavani (better scorer), Neymar (better scorer and creator), Di Maria (almost equal on assists with Messi, 15 goals) and Mbappe to spare (16 goals, 14 assists).

City have Agüero (scores more often than Messi for you, also more than Suarez), KDB (better midfielder), Sterling (3 goals behind Suarez playing 600 minutes less), and Sané (12 goals 15 assists).

Liverpool have Salah (beats both our strikers) and Firmino (1 goal behind Suarez, 200 minutes less, 3 assists more).

Real Madrid... well may I talk about how Cristiano Ronaldo is doing this season in the UCL too?. Also Bale (151 minutes/goal) has almost catched up to Suarez' pace (141) already.

Suddenly, Messi and Suarez vs the world doesn't sound that terrifying, every other team with good odds have at least 2 players that can rival our duo, you've basically said it yourself by comparing all that bunch of players individually to our best forward (Messi).

Saying that Suarez has been the best striker in the world for the last months when he shared continent with Salah, Kane, Cavani, Neymar or Lewandowski (players you said scored more than Messi, who is still outscoring Suarez) it's just another loop in the argument to not recognize the fact that if we win the UCL, it will be mostly because Leo was up to it. If he's not at top level, no one looks fit to step forward and carry this team to the line. It's been that way in La Liga, and will be the same in the UCL

 

[FootballHQ]

Levante are such a boring team. Why isn't Coke playing?

Seems months since they won a game so Las Palmas have massive chance to stay up.

 

[FootballHQ]

As I type that they score a penalty.

 

[Synco]

Unbelievable dribbling by Messi again. Not a good finish though.

Edit: Plus an unbelievable free kick against Oblak, 1-0. What a player.

 

[carvajal]

Golazo

 

[GifLord]

this guy

 

[Daysleeper]

MESSI MESSI MESSI MESSI

 

[Zoo]

A genius.

 

[manpaslop]

wonderful free kick

 

[Cloud7]

I really am going to miss watching Messi when he retires. Guy is truly pure magic

 

[Jim Beam]

Magician

 

[DomesticTadpole]

You just knew he was going to score that. Brilliant.

 

[Djemba-Djemba]

What can you do against Messi?

He's just unbelievable.

Will we ever see anyone as good as him ?

 

[Bole Top]

just another brilliant free kick by the goat, nothing new.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

The guys on BEIN just called Jan Oblak “arguably the greatest goalkeeper in the history of la Liga”