[12OunceEpilogue]

Social media, plugging own merchandise, creating daft celebrations 24/7 etc. Basically living the dream life of a 14yo boy.

Though it's unsavoury for many fans to see players constantly arsing about on social media when we're not performing on the pitch I don't think it necessarily hampers a player's development. Despite various criticism for failing to concentrate on his football Lingard had a pretty fine season last year, including a good WC. I think there is a combination of factors at play in Rashford's setback, with social media larking (which in any case I feel is mostly positive as it shows good relations between teammates) at most being one part of the mix.

Rashford is a pretty normal 20 year old. He isn’t really that much like Lingard in terms of personality. They’re just friends.

I agree, it can be irritating to see daft videos from players when the performances on the pitch are vastly below par but I see a bit of lightheartedness on social media as a net positive overall, with many modern players showing they can have that and silly goal celebrations while delivering in games at the same time.

 

[Rajma]

He’s all confidence at this age, there’s a great player in him as evident by his start to United career and even beginning of last season he was looking very good and unpredictable. Sadly, now he doesn’t have the confidence to pull off any of that anymore as we’re starved of any meaningful attacks, goals, and fluency, in fact very few attacking players wouldn’t get affected playing with no system and not getting anywhere near opponents box with speed and purpose. He now overthinks every move of his and that essentially is achilles heel for attacking players relying on their instincts.

 

[Grande]

Ah come on. Macheda was always pretty crap. I was shocked that he ever got games for the first team because he'd always looked really average on the reserves. He just had a couple of good moments at the right time.

Martial is a very different situation.

I’m exaggerating. He did score a hat trick in the reserves game before his two match winners. But the point was more that his main quality seemed to be the ability to be ATRPATRT, as it seemed with Rashford, re the post I answered. Which I think doesn’t look like a talent of Rashford, or James Wilson, or Welbeck, or many other young players who score on their debut not because they are great poaching talents, but because they are dead eager and the opposition is lax in marking them.

The truth is that developing 95% of talented 18-20 year olds is normally a slow process, where fans normally go more critical at all the while weaknesses are gradually ironed out and the strengths come in increasingly frustrating spurts.

If we’re to believe the fans in the Rashford/Martial threads, one of them is a talentless parasite on the club and the other would be world class in days if just LVG came back. Truth is, at their age, it’s not hard to find great faults in both of them, and they both have big strengths, neither of which are consistent enough to build a top team around so as to mask their weaknesses.

At Everton, Martial would look like Richarlison. At Liverpool, neither of them would look like Mané, and hence more like Solange. (Not in playing styles, but in impact). In the Mourinho threads, Rash and Martial are both thwarted geniouses, in the Woodward thread, they’re both duds and why didn’t he splash for Dembele.

They are both young and promising that might have a future at Utd long term, but far from finished product, and I wish polemics could be left aside to just let them develop in a normal pace without all the large words bandied about all the time.

 

[12OunceEpilogue]

I’m exaggerating. He did score a hat trick in the reserves game before his two match winners. But the point was more that his main quality seemed to be the ability to be ATRPATRT, as it seemed with Rashford, re the post I answered. Which I think doesn’t look like a talent of Rashford, or James Wilson, or Welbeck, or many other young players who score on their debut not because they are great poaching talents, but because they are dead eager and the opposition is lax in marking them.

The truth is that developing 95% of talented 18-20 year olds is normally a slow process, where fans normally go more critical at all the while weaknesses are gradually ironed out and the strengths come in increasingly frustrating spurts.

If we’re to believe the fans in the Rashford/Martial threads, one of them is a talentless parasite on the club and the other would be world class in days if just LVG came back. Truth is, at their age, it’s not hard to find great faults in both of them, and they both have big strengths, neither of which are consistent enough to build a top team around so as to mask their weaknesses.

At Everton, Martial would look like Richarlison. At Liverpool, neither of them would look like Mané, and hence more like Solange. (Not in playing styles, but in impact). In the Mourinho threads, Rash and Martial are both thwarted geniouses, in the Woodward thread, they’re both duds and why didn’t he splash for Dembele.

They are both young and promising that might have a future at Utd long term, but far from finished product, and I wish polemics could be left aside to just let them develop in a normal pace without all the large words bandied about all the time.

I agree with the points you make, and well done on the ATRPATRT acronym

 

[SteveW]

I’m exaggerating. He did score a hat trick in the reserves game before his two match winners. But the point was more that his main quality seemed to be the ability to be ATRPATRT, as it seemed with Rashford, re the post I answered. Which I think doesn’t look like a talent of Rashford, or James Wilson, or Welbeck, or many other young players who score on their debut not because they are great poaching talents, but because they are dead eager and the opposition is lax in marking them.

The truth is that developing 95% of talented 18-20 year olds is normally a slow process, where fans normally go more critical at all the while weaknesses are gradually ironed out and the strengths come in increasingly frustrating spurts.

If we’re to believe the fans in the Rashford/Martial threads, one of them is a talentless parasite on the club and the other would be world class in days if just LVG came back. Truth is, at their age, it’s not hard to find great faults in both of them, and they both have big strengths, neither of which are consistent enough to build a top team around so as to mask their weaknesses.

At Everton, Martial would look like Richarlison. At Liverpool, neither of them would look like Mané, and hence more like Solange. (Not in playing styles, but in impact). In the Mourinho threads, Rash and Martial are both thwarted geniouses, in the Woodward thread, they’re both duds and why didn’t he splash for Dembele.

They are both young and promising that might have a future at Utd long term, but far from finished product, and I wish polemics could be left aside to just let them develop in a normal pace without all the large words bandied about all the time.

Fair enough. The potential is obvious in both players but they need patience and coaching. Sane and Sterling are examples of what can happen with the right coaching. Jose isn't the type to do it.

But on your general point I agree. People are getting way too wound up over a couple of young players. The rush to criticise both at the moment is insane. But to be honest I'm unsure how much of this is down to people wanting to cover for Mourinho

 

[RedEM10]

He needs to grow a pair and throw himself about a bit. Notice how when the ball is knocked up to him he pretends to jump for the ball knowing fine well he isn't even half arsed about competing with a defender for the header/chest.

 

[Grande]

Fair enough. The potential is obvious in both players but they need patience and coaching. Sane and Sterling are examples of what can happen with the right coaching. Jose isn't the type to do it.

But on your general point I agree. People are getting way too wound up over a couple of young players. The rush to criticise both at the moment is insane. But to be honest I'm unsure how much of this is down to people wanting to cover for Mourinho

Sterling certainly is an example of what can be done when the right player is matched with the needs of the right manager. Sane too to an extent, but I think his quality has been up and down and his place isn’t secure yet, so who knows what discussions might yet ensue at Blue Moon if City takes a dip in form ... but no doubt Guardiola is very good at coaching the right players in his ways.

I think both sides of the Mourinho polemics are to blame.

I agree with the points you make, and well done on the ATRPATRT acronym

I’m hoping to make a fair few pence on it, tbh!

 

[van Nistelrooy]

When has he ever done any of this?

My post was referring to Lingard.

 

[12OunceEpilogue]

Sterling certainly is an example of what can be done when the right player is matched with the needs of the right manager. Sane too to an extent, but I think his quality has been up and down and his place isn’t secure yet, so who knows what discussions might yet ensue at Blue Moon if City takes a dip in form ... but no doubt Guardiola is very good at coaching the right players in his ways.

I think both sides of the Mourinho polemics are to blame.



I’m hoping to make a fair few pence on it, tbh!

Spoiler

 

[AngliaRed]

With reference to playing crap yet having an active social media account and personal life;

He’s 20 for lords sake! He plays football for 90mins (at best ) once a week! If he doesn’t play well enough for us then it’s down to manager to make him perform better or move him on. Players have lives outside of training and matchdays contray to what some people on here think, he’s entitled to show off his latest hairstyle, new car or whatever else 20yr olds do in their own time! If any of us thinks him putting his fingers over his eye on instagram is going to affect the his commitment or form on a Saturday afternoon then you really need to get with reality and get outside more.

Yes, he and the rest of the team are playing crap, but it doesn’t mean he isn’t allowed a life outside of the club. If he misses an open goal then that night films himself having his haircut smiling, who cares? He’s obviously gonna be upset with himself for missing or underperforming just like many of us do at the weekend sunday league match ot whatever! The pressure and expectation we and our press put on young players is ridiculous.

 

[MyOnlySolskjaer]

My post was referring to Lingard.

Ah, my bad. But don't you find it interesting how he does all of this yet he had a better season than Rashford, Martial, Mata and Sanchez. I think these external things get too much attention.

 

[Grande]

Spoiler

 

[marktan]

Fair enough. The potential is obvious in both players but they need patience and coaching. Sane and Sterling are examples of what can happen with the right coaching. Jose isn't the type to do it.

But on your general point I agree. People are getting way too wound up over a couple of young players. The rush to criticise both at the moment is insane. But to be honest I'm unsure how much of this is down to people wanting to cover for Mourinho

Sane and Sterling at Rashford's age were much more talented with the ball at their feet though. Rashford's dribbing ability is essentially being a kick and run merchant, which he doesn't even do well.

I just think he's playing out of position, he's not a winger at all, he's a striker.

 

[Damien]

I agree with the points you make, and well done on the ATRPATRT acronym

Yeah, for a minute I thought he had an @Adisa moment.

 

[Adisa]

Yeah, for a minute I thought he had an @Adisa moment.

Damn you.

 

[SteveW]

Sane and Sterling at Rashford's age were much more talented with the ball at their feet though. Rashford's dribbing ability is essentially being a kick and run merchant, which he doesn't even do well.

I just think he's playing out of position, he's not a winger at all, he's a striker.

I feel there's more to Rashford than we're currently seeing. He can do some fantastic things when his confidence is high. 2 years under the right coach and he'd become a good player imo

 

[buckooo1978]

I feel there's more to Rashford than we're currently seeing. He can do some fantastic things when his confidence is high. 2 years under the right coach and he'd become a good player imo

he was putting away some cracking chances under Van Gaal - remember that curling finish into the top corner vrs West Ham

he seems to see far less of the ball in dangerous areas these days

 

[Snash93]

I feel there's more to Rashford than we're currently seeing. He can do some fantastic things when his confidence is high. 2 years under the right coach and he'd become a good player imo

I agree, with Sane and Sterling, they played in systems which complimented their natural game. When Brendan first began introducing Sterling to the Liverpool first 11, the team was already playing a style which fitted Sterling i.e. based on possession based football and quick counter attacks which worked well for Sterling as he had Sturridge, Suarez and Coutinho to play and link up with in most matches.

While I think Jose is still a good manager and capable of challenging and winning major trophies, his system or philosophy doesn't really cater to Rashford's strengths. I personally preferred his performances when LVG bought him through the youth ranks and while his philosophy resulted in a boring possession based football (compared with what we in Pep's possession based teams), Rashford was always one of those bright sparks who played well in such a system.

I personally would love him at Liverpool under Jurgen as he can interchange with Salah and Mane and be lethal on the counter attack especially as we play a little bit more directly.

 

[SteveW]

he was putting away some cracking chances under Van Gaal - remember that curling finish into the top corner vrs West Ham

he seems to see far less of the ball in dangerous areas these days

The last part is a really good point. We are looking at a number of wide players at the moment and asking what the hell is wrong with them. Rashford and Sanchez are in the worst form of their careers. Martial can barely get a game.

Is it that they all turned to shit overnight or is it that the football we play makes it very fecking difficult for them to succeed. It is almost certainly the latter as far as I'm concerned.

I'd want to see them all under another manager before ever even considering selling one of them. I seem to be a minority on here with that opinion.

 

[buckooo1978]

The last part is a really good point. We are looking at a number of wide players at the moment and asking what the hell is wrong with them. Rashford and Sanchez are in the worst form of their careers. Martial can barely get a game.

Is it that they all turned to shit overnight or is it that the football we play makes it very fecking difficult for them to succeed. It is almost certainly the latter as far as I'm concerned.

I'd want to see them all under another manager before ever even considering selling one of them. I seem to be a minority on here with that opinion.

agree totally

Rashford in his more recent career seems to be chasing longer passes or is dribbling at players - I remember him getting on the end of things a lot more in and around the box from memory

 

[Foxbatt]

There is no system in our attacking play. Rashford seems to be the biggest culprit. He tries to taken on the enitre team on his own. He does not pass when he needs to pass and this is the biggest problem with him. His movements are all wrong. Jose did put him as a CF and he could not play there at all. I think this wing play and this 433 is what is destroying th team. I think the diamond is the best for this team with two up front and someone like Sanchez playing as the number 10. That would give us more options to attack for sure.

 

[bosnian_red]

he was putting away some cracking chances under Van Gaal - remember that curling finish into the top corner vrs West Ham

he seems to see far less of the ball in dangerous areas these days

That first half season with LvG was purely down to unsustainable lucky finishing. Riding a good wave and everything coming off. Of course, hes capable of so much more then hes shown recently, and is a player who is capable of very good moments as he has a very good shooting technique, but he is still very raw and not a good finisher in general. Obviously part of it is the positions he gets the ball in, but I also just think hes not suited to any of the positions hes playe in yet. Not suited as a lone striker, and hes not a winger. Either a wide forward or a poacher playing off a striker as a partnership. Even still, he has to improve his aggression and physicality as most of the time he gets pushed off the ball easily, ducks out of headers, or whatever else. Also his movement is very sub par off the ball. Like he runs around a lot, but he doesnt have the natural knack of moving into space and getting those goalscoring positions like Jesus does (even though I dont rate him much overall, his movement is very good), or Hernandez did.

 

[Fer]

Where do you think is Rashford best position?

Leading the line as Striker? Winger? No.10?

 

[van Nistelrooy]

Where do you think is Rashford best position?

Leading the line as Striker? Winger? No.10?

On the bench.

 

[-Supreme-]

Where do you think is Rashford best position?

Leading the line as Striker? Winger? No.10?

Versatile squad player that can play a few attacking positions but he's not great in any them, dare I say it but he may end up having a career like Welbeck. It's a shame our squad isn't good enough to allow him going on a season long loan.

 

[el3mel]

Where do you think is Rashford best position?

Leading the line as Striker? Winger? No.10?

Sub left forward to use his pace and run against tired legs. Needs to stop being greedy though.

 

[BAMSOLA]

Where do you think is Rashford best position?

Leading the line as Striker? Winger? No.10?

Inside forward left where he has performed best for us with occasional support striker appearances.

 

[Litch]

My biggest issue with him is his finishing. I never feel confident when he's through on goal and I'm not sure this is something that you can learn. I also think like lots of the young players here, they need to play regularly and whilst he does get on the pitch, not sure he's starting enough to inform the game rather than coming on as a reaction to winning or losing.

 

[Smores]

The last part is a really good point. We are looking at a number of wide players at the moment and asking what the hell is wrong with them. Rashford and Sanchez are in the worst form of their careers. Martial can barely get a game.

Is it that they all turned to shit overnight or is it that the football we play makes it very fecking difficult for them to succeed. It is almost certainly the latter as far as I'm concerned.

I'd want to see them all under another manager before ever even considering selling one of them. I seem to be a minority on here with that opinion.

Thats a massive problem to any discussion in here though isn't it? Particularly in these player threads. I can understand those on the fence with Jose but those of you who just discount any players issues and instead blame it on Jose just kill off discussion.

One of the most popular contradictions banded about by a frequent group on here is that in one thread they'll say "Martial was having a great season until Sanchez" then the next day in a different thread it'll be "Martials just suffering from poor coaching". So game is to defend historic performances when questiondd but also blame current performances on the same manager who had a hand in those earlier great performances.

The coaching, style and setup does not need to be perfect for players to put in an individual performance of a basic level and nor does it need to be so to evaluate elements of their play.

 

[tjb]

Our flanks are and have been our biggest problem for 5 years. I was watching the liverpool game yesterday. The midfield did not hand the attackers the ball on a plate like people expect from ours. The attackers were able to use skill and technique to keep the ball when given, pass the ball when necessary, and make the right runs that would allow chances be created. They created their own dribbling opportunities from deep, without needing acres of space. Rashford is a massive culprit of this. Especially when played down the flanks. People always act like the system is stopping our attackers, our attackers are simply not thaaat good.

 

[VJ1762]

Overrated. should be a squad player. nothing more. raheem sterling is lightyears ahead of this guy. i don't know wtf he is doing in training because he can't win a header, can't pass, can't shoot, can't dribble, can't cross, too greedy and decision making is non-existent. the fact that he is a starter shows how much we have declined on the pitch.

 

[TheReligion]

Overrated. should be a squad player. nothing more. raheem sterling is lightyears ahead of this guy. i don't know wtf he is doing in training because he can't win a header, can't pass, can't shoot, can't dribble, can't cross, too greedy and decision making is non-existent. the fact that he is a starter shows how much we have declined on the pitch.

One of the most irritating terms I keep hearing at the moment.

 

[ash_86]

One of the most irritating terms I keep hearing at the moment.

Sterling is way ahead of Rashford. Better touch, movement , as fast if not faster , better footballing brain.

 

[TheReligion]

Sterling is way ahead of Rashford. Better touch, movement , as fast if not faster , better footballing brain.

I don't disagree, even if he was turd in the WC.

Can we all avoid the whole ''lightyears ahead" bollocks though!

 

[ash_86]

I don't disagree, even if he was turd in the WC.

Can we all avoid the whole ''lightyears ahead" bollocks though!

Ah the phrase, I agree.

 

[TheReligion]

Ah the phrase, I agree.

 

[SteveW]

Thats a massive problem to any discussion in here though isn't it? Particularly in these player threads. I can understand those on the fence with Jose but those of you who just discount any players issues and instead blame it on Jose just kill off discussion.

One of the most popular contradictions banded about by a frequent group on here is that in one thread they'll say "Martial was having a great season until Sanchez" then the next day in a different thread it'll be "Martials just suffering from poor coaching". So game is to defend historic performances when questiondd but also blame current performances on the same manager who had a hand in those earlier great performances.

The coaching, style and setup does not need to be perfect for players to put in an individual performance of a basic level and nor does it need to be so to evaluate elements of their play.

I get that. Its not how I try to evaluate players. But it's happening to too many players to not at least look at the possibility. You could argue that lingard is the only attacker who seems to be truly thriving and that probably because he usually plays in a fairly free role whereas the others don't.

Sanchez was the example that hits the point home for me. He basically turned to absolute shit the second he signed. How does that happen?

Looking to martial for a second. Everyone is slating him for the Brighton game. I don't quite get that. They got to ball to him quickly about once in the whole hour he played and he skinned the full back. The rest of the time they just zombie passed it up to him and allowed the brighton defence to get organised. It was the same for all the attackers. Our build up is way too slow then we expect attackers to magically create something themselves against a set defence. It's completely unrealistic.

 

[Ashley R1+O]

Overrated. should be a squad player. nothing more. raheem sterling is lightyears ahead of this guy. i don't know wtf he is doing in training because he can't win a header, can't pass, can't shoot, can't dribble, can't cross, too greedy and decision making is non-existent. the fact that he is a starter shows how much we have declined on the pitch.

... What? He is a squad player. This post is a bizarre rant, kind of weird to talk down to one of our best academy talents and not want what is best for him.

 

[Amar__]

Rashford is a massive culprit of this. Especially when played down the flanks.

Yeah, especially when he is on the bench and Alexis Sanchez plays. You cannot blame individual player for our shit wing play when they are all poor.

 

[Schmeichel's Cartwheel]

I know he didn't play tonight, but he reminds me so much of Welbeck. Anyone else see it or is it just me?

Same positions, similar speed, similar balance, Welbeck a fair bit stronger, Rashford a bit better at finishing, both have low composure, Welbeck much less greedy, Rashford better technique when striking the ball.

Overall I'd say Rashford is a bit better, but they are very similar, he's like a technically better but worse team player version of Welbeck. Sir Alex would have LOVED Rashford. I think he would've become quite the player under him.