The reported fee was only around £25m, or €30m. It's fine if you don't like him, but don't go making shit up.
Patrick Dorgu | 2024/25 Performances
- Thread starter MyOnlySolskjaer
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Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) discuss United's fantastic win away against Athletic Club in the semi-final of the Europa League.
They also pick out the positives of United's 4-3 loss away at Brentford, and Nik reviews a day out at Old Trafford watching Manchester United Women qualify for the Champions League.
He’s hopefully not the finished product so have to give him some slack, especially as he came in mid season.
But his end product is really poor. Need to see that improve next season.
But his end product is really poor. Need to see that improve next season.
In that case I will further clarify my first paragraph. A player being heavily involved is not a negative, and it is not a negative that Dorgu is heavily involved. My point is, it is the fact that he is so heavily involved that makes you (well, me) rue the fact that he’s actually not very capable of doing much. His level of involvement serves to highlight the opportunity cost of having someone quite good being heavily involved instead. So on one hand, he serves to highlight the benefits of the system we play, but in the particular case of our team - the amount of situations he wastes serves to highlight the obvious benefits of having a player better than him in the team would bring. And yes, I saw he played a through pass to Garnacho. And I saw that Hojlund scored a goal.
The fact that not everyone is Hakimi only serves to highlight the flaws of the system altogether, which of course is probably the root of the problem I have. There are not enough Hakimi’s to go around all of the top teams, which is probably part of the reason most of them don’t play with this system. It is not mandatory to play with a wing-back, and I have a problem with the fact that we’ve hired a manager who places so much of our attacking responsibility on Patrick Dorgu. I guess it is not only unlikely that he would of course not be up to such responsibility - it’s unlikely that any full back at all would. Dorgu’s lack of quality, or what you seem to have simplified as ‘aesthetically pleasing’ is not uncommon in full backs, hence why most teams ask far more talented players to occupy the areas and situations that he does. If he himself were actually good enough, he’d almost certainly have been a winger by trade and not a fullback. From a purely geographical standpoint, we’ve basically replaced Rashford with Dorgu. There’s a couple Hakimi’s, but plenty Kvara’s, Saka’s, Doue’s, Barcola’s, Yamal’s, Raphinha’s, Vinicius etc - yet we’ve opted to rid ourselves of any such player and pass the responsibility to Patrick Dorgu instead, and simply say ‘he doesn’t have to be that good to be useful’ as mitigation it seems.
It’s logical that you can reference a few good crosses from him. He gets so much of the ball in good areas. As you put it, he also ‘obliterates’ a number of opportunities. And not just opportunities. It’s not all about a telling moment in the final third. In the middle third he frequently fails to pass the ball 5 yards, and often the best he can do under any sort of pressure is to go down and hope for a foul. He seems to lack almost every quality, and the ones that he doesn’t, I wouldn’t say he excels at either.
As for Mazraoui, Mazraoui simply hasn’t got the wngine for the role. Some full backs can play further forward. Others, like Trent and Mazraoui can play inside. Mazraoui can probably play more positions on the pitch than Dorgu simply because he’s got far better technical ability. He’s a better full back too, and was just fine offensively when playing there. He helped us build up so much better, kept the ball under pressure and got the team moving. Mazraoui was a unanimous success before Amorim turned up and started fecking with his position. And it was for more than just defending. He just wasn’t expected to be the difference in the final third, which makes sense as he’s a full back (like Dorgu). Dorgu has the engine to get himself in better positions, but hasn’t got the quality to do anything with it, aside from what I imagine is sheer probability due to trying over and over. Hakimi doesn’t even play wing back and makes so much of his opportunities in the final third. Everyone isn’t as good as him granted, but then stop playing this formation then when you don’t have full-backs who can provide exceptional quality going forward, and instead find a winger who has just that.
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Rozay mate, the first step for United getting back into contention is for the players able to compete physically. Dorgu has that in spades.
Now he is adding some attacking moves on top but you are still adamant Patrick is not good enough.
Understand your criticizm of Onana, Hojlund and others but bashing this young lad is not fair in my honest opinion.
Now he is adding some attacking moves on top but you are still adamant Patrick is not good enough.
Understand your criticizm of Onana, Hojlund and others but bashing this young lad is not fair in my honest opinion.
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Bit of a random take because more and more teams are playing 5 ATB. fecking Real, the biggest club in football, are going to be playing 5 ATB. Wing back is one of the easiest positions to sign for, the players are cheap. Many 4 ATB sides have a pseduo wing back peddling their trade as a fullback. Kerkez, Ait Nouri, Trippier, Nico Williams, Porro etc. etc. all come to mind from just this season in the PL.
Regardless of 5 ATB or 4 ATB the template in possession is a back three comprising of [Defensive FB, CCB, RCB]. And one extremely attacking fullback basically bombing forward at every opportunity. Even Hakimi himself plays as a FB in a 4 ATB system.
tl;dr: 5ATB / 4ATB doesn't matter very much and WBs are cheap.
Anyway, Dorgu is extremely average, let's move on from there. I don't really see much in there other than wilingness to run .. which is something I suppose.
Good balanced post and sums up a lot of my reservations about Amorim’s formation and our squad. Also the fact that we are still starting Maguire and Lindelöf in big matches is criminal. If we weren’t so intent on three at the back no matter what at least we wouldn’t still be relying on Lindelöf. This is obviously on INEOS more so than Amorim as the planning was nonexistent in transitioning from Ten Hag. But ideally Amorim would show more flexibility to get the best out of the current squad.
But this is the Patrick Dorgu thread. You completely agree with Rozays post who humiliated young Dorgu. You never said a word about his performance while mentioning Maguire, Lindelof (twice) and Amorim (trice), and agreed to a comment that young Dorgu is not and will never be good enough.
Flashes of Elanga, McT etc - "Fecking shite players and not good enough to ever win anything. We wont win the league with them" nonsense. While one of them is soon lifting the league title as the best player in Italy, and the other is fighting to secure feckin Forest top 5 CL spot while United are languishing just above relegation places.
He isn’t even slating Dorgu in the post I responded to much less saying he will never be good enough. In short he said we are not doing ourselves or Dorgu any favors relying on him so heavily. I don’t think that’s controversial at all and it lines up with my comments in response re our centerbacks.
Fascinating the Venn diagram of those who are consistently negative about Amorim in the Amorim thread and negative about Dorgu in the Dorgu thread.
You keep talking about fullbacks. They are not wingbacks, so what does it matter if they are better? They don't have the stamina or willingness to run up and down the flank all game that is required from wingbacks and by Amorim. Mazraoui is better than Dorgu, yet he just doesn't offer anything close to what Dorgu does, and is the reason why he is not involved as much.
Bullied off the ball? I'd like you to show me a single example where he was bullied. Unless you're saying fouls are bullying, which would be ridiculous and entirely false.
Fair play, that's a good and balanced post, and I agree with most of it, particularly the formation and requirements of specific players in that set-up. When players like Kvaratskhelia are available for €70m, it should maybe get Amorim thinking about alternative set-ups and other ways of playing instead of insisting upon one specific way.
I believe Dorgu will improve a lot, not to Nuno Mendes or Hakimi level but to a high level. If he can improve on his crossing and finishing, then he would already be a lethal wingback as he is already getting into great positions and involved in much of our play. A bit like Garnacho, in my opinion, with his horrendous finishing, but there is clearly a dangerous player there if he can improve in some areas, especially finishing.
Honestly mate I'm just using it interchangeably because he was never really a LWB at Lecce, and I've compared his role here to the LB or LWB equivalents and he still not very good.
Whether you take wingbacks from palace and wolves or full backs from other clubs he comes up short. Dice it however you want.
It was 30m eur with 5m eur add ons. So if you want to be pedantic that's 35m. Something something don't make shit up.
As above. Dorgu offers what exactly, overlaps and accelerations of pace? He also offers poor linkup play and more defensive frailties.
If you want a bullied off the ball example take a look at say, Bournemouths goal vs us. There's plenty of other examples during games, the burden of proof really isn't on me mate.
He seemed like a different player as soon as the subs were made and he went to the right. Started linking up with Amad and actually looking like he might do something. Was kinda impressed with how he started playing once out there.
At this point, it is clear you're just making things up. He has made some mistakes defensively like every single defender does. It doesn't make him defensively poor. He is good defensively, good aerially, a good tackler and fairly strong.
Poor link-up play? He has very good link-up play, that is exactly why Bruno uses him frequently to link up with and why he finds himself in dangerous positions all the time. Did you not see that fantastic bit of skill against Athletic with Amad right after he was subbed on? You can criticise Dorgu for many things, but just making things up is not the way to go. We watch the same games you do.
And I don't think you understand what bullying in football means. A mistake is not being bullied. He made a poor touch and opened his body for the player to take the ball off of him, so yeah, the burden of proof really is on you. Apparently there are plenty examples but you could think of one which wasn't even an example of him being bullied.
Kvara would've been perfect in this set up in l10 position.
Im not making anything up. If you think he has good link up play and want to point to weird examples like "Bruno passes to him", be my guest. But he's a wingback and he will see a lot of the ball irrespective. It's just flawed logic.
I've seen his good moments, as I said he's not got enough good ones and has many poor ones.
I dont think you understand what having potential means. It's just weird you ask for examples of being bullied, get given an example of him making a wrong decision and buckling under the pressure of a press and then say "oh that's different". You can't just say he has very good linkup play as a general comment and then accuse me of making things up. Just roll back a few pages to see the general sentiment in the past few games.
He is generally a very flat footed player and stumbles off the ball due to his awkward positioning which allows others to bully him off possession with more ease. This may or may not change but I'm not just going to bury my head in the sand and say he has potential for the sake of it.
It's actually 30m euros.
Regardless, we need to give him time to settle in. In the mean time, he's been serviceable which will do for now.
Its 30m plus 5 add ons so the whole fee is 35m euros?
Even if its 30m it's still an overpayment. And I don't want my posts to be misconstrued as some sort of hater of the player. I'm fully behind him but I know how some fans have a good knack of building up player hype from almost nothing. Ideally we get a proper experienced LWB for him to learn from next season. He's not ready week in week out.
You are making a lot of things up, and it is quite reminiscent of posters making up things about Mount when they didn't agree with the transfer to begin with. You are pointing out his mistakes in every game much more than any other player and it is obvious you have taken a dislike for the player as naturally happens when you aren't fond of a transfer in the first place and said player doesn't look excellent right away.
You don't need to listen to me when I say he has good link-up play, you can watch games at what he does, and it is also clear both Bruno and Amad are enjoying linking up with him. But yeah, you know better than them.
Funny you mention the potential bit as that is exactly what I was thinking of you yesterday when you mentioned Dorgu not showing potential in Premier League. Do you honestly believe potential is about showing it for United in the Premier League?
A ton of scouts for top clubs have been scouting him with years of experience, connections, resources and knowledge in the field, but someone with zero qualifications is meant to know better than them? Do you see how that makes no sense at all? If you don't think he has potential, that's fine, but expect to be called out for it when you put it forward as facts.
And again, you showed me no such examples. You showed one where he made a mistake, not one where was bullied (physically, as it means). Unless you think a player making a mistake is being bullied, then that example is useless and proves nothing of what you claimed.
This is seriously going round in circles.
You can't ask for examples and then say they aren't examples. You claim in making things up based on literally nothing and assume I haven't watched the game.
As I said, look at the posts here about him in the games prior to Bilbao (where he was brighter going forward). The general sentiment in the league is that he fluctuates from OK to terrible.
Unless of course you think many others here have also not watched him.
He's heavier footed than I expected and he has lots to improve in his passing. But he seems to provide us a lot of physicality and running power. I'd like to see how he progresses over the next year before fully judging him.
If I ask you for an example of a player scoring a penalty and you show me an example of him doing a throw-in, do you think that is a valid example? I'm going to say no, and the same applies to your example. It isn't valid, as it is entirely different to what I asked for.
Athletic isn't some random, poor team. They are 4th in La Liga, 6 points behind Atletico, with the same amount of losses as Barca, Real and Atletico (5) and have conceded the fewest goals of all teams in La Liga. So if he is showing potential against them and brighter going forward, then surely you agree that he could potentially do it against Fulham and Wolverhampton too, especially with experience and further development?
What an earth are you on about? You think being bullied off the ball is limited to being physically out muscled alone? It isn't. You can have possession and be dosile/flat footed and be dispossesed by a player showing more aggression and front footedness, and be bullied out of it. This is exactly what happened in the video so stop pretending like it doesn't apply.
And yes athletic are a good team - he looked brighter in that but still had various iffy moments. Passing that aside it doesn't mean he will be a strong asset long term. Potential isn't gauged from one or two games alone, believe it or not. He's had plenty of lesser performances in the legue so the jury is very much out.
He was never a wingback at Lecce and fluctuated between what, RW and LB? If we take a subset of LB and LWBs in the PL and extrapolate how they'd fare in amorims system it's beyond reasonable doubt they'd show more. Ait Nouri at 20, Djed Spence this season, Sessengon for Fulham, etc.
Thats not to say Dorgu won't get there because progression is non linear and we can consider Dumfries as a success story. But I'm not going to blindly assume potential until I actually see it in general performances.
Feck me you're miserable
He is 20. - the Caf: Yeah, but Yamal is only 17.
He has just been here for a couple of months, getting used to a new league in a struggling team - the Caf: Hello! Look at Antony at Betis!
He was our best and most dangerous player in the first half. - Did you not see him misplacing that pass?
...and so on. Some people has made up their mind, and nothing can change it
Dorgu is not Cafu, but he is doing fecking well under the circumstances. He stretches our play, makes good runs, brings energy and physicality, creates space and makes decent crosses. There are brainfarts and his shooting and passing needs to improve, but there is plenty of time to work on that. He is already making our team better.
He has just been here for a couple of months, getting used to a new league in a struggling team - the Caf: Hello! Look at Antony at Betis!
He was our best and most dangerous player in the first half. - Did you not see him misplacing that pass?
...and so on. Some people has made up their mind, and nothing can change it
Dorgu is not Cafu, but he is doing fecking well under the circumstances. He stretches our play, makes good runs, brings energy and physicality, creates space and makes decent crosses. There are brainfarts and his shooting and passing needs to improve, but there is plenty of time to work on that. He is already making our team better.
Yeah I'm not going to assume Dorgu has bags of potential and will rather wait and see how he is.
I'm so miserable
He’s a big talent. Was really good on Thursday.
He's not doing that good. I called it as I see it, that's not hatingYou have a funny way of showing it pal
You've excluded numerous times I said he may come good and that I haven't ruled out him developing. Either by accident or because it didn't fit your narrative.
He's not doing that good. I called it as I see it, that's not hating
You've excluded numerous times I said he may come good and that I haven't ruled out him developing. Either by accident or because it didn't fit your narrative.
Maybe reflect on your apparent need to hyper focus on his faults then. It’s an easy get out clause to spend page after page ripping into a player and then offer a ‘but he might improve’.
Obviously he messes up passes, doesn’t make the right decision, gets caught out of position sometimes. But he also has shown to get into great positions, drive forward with pace, and have nice link up play, and with better forward finishers he should have had at least 3 or 4 assists by now. Some of the forward misses from a Dorgu assist have been criminal.
He’s 20. In his first half season. Of course he will continue developing. Your view on potential is waiting for him to come good, which… isn’t how potential works.
I'm not hyper focusing on his faults - everything you said is clearly an exaggeration. Take his better performance vs Bilbao yesterday, there's equal examples of him being poor in offensive areas than good, but it was one of his brighter performances which points to a low bar.
In the league games he's had plenty of worrying moments. I'm not going to pretend like they didn't happen. This whole debate started because I asked what relative potential he has over his peers at the same age and no one can actually justify their argument.
I'm hearing things like "he can link up well at times, he has pace, he takes up good positions". There's 3-4 examples of PL full backs who do more than that and are more consistent in their play. Does it make me a hater to highlight this? Or should I say nah he's got potential than others because he has a United shirt.
Why do we need to compare him to other players? He’s our player. Are there other players in the PL also with potential? Sure. Who cares.
Because when we talk about potential it's relative. And when we play football it's about how we fare in quality versus others.
Weird take.
Multiple players can have potential and they can all go on to have good careers. Dorgu has potential to be a good player for us, and that is the case whether his peers do well for their respective teams or not.
It’s always the ones with the weird take themselves that throw that line on others.
If you want to see the term potential in that sense then sure. Every player has potential. Amass has potential and so did Tuanzebe and so does Collyer. Forson had potential and so did Gomes.
Every player has potential, but we didn't buy Dorgu for a 35m eur combined fee just because of potential. We thought he was a physical player who is ready for the step up, and in that sense he hasn't shown to have this "immediate" potential.
He's some way off yet, and may or may not realise it. Of course I'm hating if I point this out, so why bother.
And yes, looking at players in a vacuum and determining them to be good as a standalone judgement without relative worth is definitely weird. Lord knows what the metrics are for that.
Sensible post this, deserves a like.
Inbetween an array of VP89, staunch backer of ETH, his shite signings, Murtough and all things United. Now after Ineos, and Amorim taking over, hes writting off a young lad yet to settle in Manchester on and of the pitch.
If you are somehow connected to ETH please let it go, its (thankfully) the past. Erik, nor Murtough, wont come back to United, I dont think so.
Patrick Dorgu has his limitations and its questionable he will improve on them: mainly his base level of technique might be hard to vastly improve, even at his young age you would rightly expect higher standard already.
But then he can migitate it with host of other good traits, crucial for this division, and he has already shown number of them. Agree with you on overpay, should have been like 15 raising to 20mil euro tops. But after a decade of huge fees and contracts given you hardly change that within a year. At least, Dorgus wages are more than reasonable.
What the feck does this have to do with ten hag
you're so obsessed.He’s a 20 year old so I’d say, yes, we have bought him clearly based on his potential. Obviously you wanted an older, more experienced player in that position which is fine. But you can’t blame Dorgu for not being that player yet.
As for your last paragraph - are you suggesting you can’t assess a player’s skillset, ability, potential in training or in games without comparing to other players? Because that’s just a bizarre take?
He's a 20 year old we paid 35m EUR for, so it wasn't just pure potential. It was on the basis that there was realisation of said potential.
The moment that fee is paid it's an opportunity cost consideration and that's where the relative value is important.