*shrug* Not really that surprised he missed a dolly and was as usual just jogging around taking the piss. Would not be surprised if he rides the pine for a month or even more.
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Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 47
- Goals
- 16
- Assists
- 14
- Yellow cards
- 7
- Red cards
- 1
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
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Not suprised by how this thread have gone so far. It is so easy to pick on Pogba and scapegoat him.
Looks low on confidence right now
Amazing how everyone has turned on him. The guy put in consistently world class performances at Juventus and still does so with France. We paid a fortune for him for a reason
Sadly we need a change of manager if we ever want to see the real Pogba.
Sadly we need a change of manager if we ever want to see the real Pogba.
And still we see posts on here telling us how his crap play is not his fault. Disgraceful, if he’s as talented as people think he is, his performance last night is an insult to the club and the fans. (For what it’s worth I want rid of Mourinho too)
Showing World Class ability for Barcelona?
As in giving Messi the ball to do his usual?
This is an absolute myth. You only saw his highlights on Twitter, most Juventus fans have said he was largely hot and cold but never world class. We paid a fortune because that's the going rate nowadays.
People haven't turned on him, he's getting shit for phoning it in, and rightly so. I'm fecking tired of hearing all the things Poba can't do, he can't play here, he can't play there, he needs x type of player around him, he needs to have more freedom, he needs a new system. Can someone tell me what he can actually do? He is more than capable of doing anything he wants to so stop making excuses for him.
This is something i have mentioned right since 2012 upto when he rejoined us even when every time he scored a screamer or did a rabona or something his thread here used to keep getting bumped. His time at Juve was mostly remembered for these highlight reel moments and that alone was supposed to be proof of how we massively dropped the ball on a potentially world class midfielder because we wouldn't kowtow to his demands. What people don't realise is that Juve are an extremely prudent club vis a vis us and don't buy/sell anyone without a plan so he was effectively the final cog in a midfield where all the heavy lifting was done by the likes of Marchisio, Pirlo and Vidal. It was this that never allowed him to develop the midfield basics to command the engine room anywhere else where the 'responsibility' on him would have been a lot more. This was a club which sold Zidane once ffs, they are experts at managing the loss of virtuoso players without any negative consequences to the club's fortunes as a whole.
Has anyone got the stats from last nights game? Namely how often he gave the ball away, and distance ran? Genuinely interested to compare him to any of our other midfielders.
We've all watched him putting in disciplined performances for France, where he did all the basics right for the whole 90 minutes. There's no reason to believe he can't do that for Utd week in week out. Jose's coaching doesn't get the best out of him.
https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1...s-League-2018-2019-Valencia-Manchester-United
Down the page's our team. I guess that UnsTouches in Offensive tab stands for dispossessed. He's the highest tonight, which would be in line of being the most dispossessed midfielder in the league.
Distance covered is not on whoscored, it's a team's number of distance covered in the CL site, we've obviously ran less than Valencia, you can check the overall distance covered in players stats' but for all the games, which says that Matić and Pogba are the two with the most distance covered for us, no idea about specifically yesterday though.
We need to stop rewriting history. First, Pogba was not as consistent as people describe him at Juventus. He was an immensely talented young lad surrounded by world class leaders all over the pitch. No one cared much about his inconsistencies then because he was young and seen as a future world conqueror. And as for France, Deschamps will tell you he has had his issues with Pogba and discipline/consistency. Thirdly, Jose has coached more talented players than Pogba and won big with them. Blame the manager for all his faults and fire him. I have no problem with that. What continously shocks me is when people insist on not placing any responsibility on Pogba. His inconsistency at United is down to him and no one else. Was it Jose that made him play so poorly yesterday? Come on. Yesterday was the kind of day you get on the pitch and make the manager look stupid for ever dropping you.
He wasn't the most dispossessed that was Pereira with 3, Pogba, Fred and Lukaku were dispossessed twice. Pogba has 5 turnovers(lost possession on passes), the second most Mata had three. Pogba also had two key passes while the rest of the midfield had 1 from a corner by Pereira.
Cheers, I don't get it. 90m, WC winning midfielder who can only play well in very specific circumstances when everything, including the stars, is aligned for him... Carragher said on MNF that 'quality doesn't make a great player' and he's right. Sourness, with his endless and tiring Pogba rants, might have been onto something... I don't care if he hates the manager and doesn't want to play for him. Don't care one bit. If he can't play for Jose, he should play for the fans who are spending their hard earned money to see him play. Where's his professional pride?
Also Pogba had the highest amount of passes, which makes sense why he would have a higher amount of turnovers. Also attempted way more long and through balls, which I would argue is purely because of the rest of the midfield is so passive.
Jose has really done a number on some people and a lot of the media with Pogba.
I disagree.
Pogba is talented yes, has he showed any inkling of showing that talent with us? The fans would say, yes he has. And I would agree to a small margin, in certain games, in certain instances he has.
But overall? No chance.
He's been a flop. Poor decision making/bad attitude/no work ethic/publicly admitting to playing with no desire/publicly slating his manager.
I absolutely hate our fans logic of "but we must play Pobga cos he's so good" Based on what!? dire performance after dire performance...…..
Our TEAM would be better off without him. He's not a team player, he benefits nobody but himself.
That's why I keep saying that there is nothing wrong with his stats. People will take them out of context but his stats are in line with his role, he creates more and tries more risky passes like cross field passes, in reality he is infinitely cleaner than his current teammates who takes very little risk, create very little but somehow aren't that far when it comes to "negative" stats.
When it comes to loss of possession stats, the normal trend is that creative/attacking players will be at the top of the list, you need to worry when a none creative player is high. Otherwise in the PL you generally see the likes of Zaha, Salah, Dele Alli...
From a tactical standpoint the issue is fairly obvious, while Pogba needs to clean up some of his loss of possessions (The ones based on concentration lapses), the team setup needs to account for the fact that our main risk taker is very deep into our midfield, France puts Matuidi on his left and Kanté on his right while Juventus often used him relatively wide or relatively high depending on the system used.
You can't really expect a player to be at the same considerably more creative than the rest of the midfield and also expect him to not take risks. It's one or the other.
I kind of agree with both arguments about Pogba..
He's very lazy at times and pisses about too much when should be playing the simple pass and moving.. Honestly don't think he's this world class MF some people say he is.. very frustrating.
But he's still our best outfield player, a very good & effective player, and under a different manager and system I think he would thrive, (as we have seen him at times).
To be honest, if i was in his position i would be doing everything i could to prove Jose wrong, (which he doesn't seem too bothered about).. But at same time i can accept how frustrating and de-motivating it can to be in a job where you are being slated and scapegoated all the time. You simply wouldn't want to go to work. Especially when you know you are going to be asked to do the same boring job each day
He's very lazy at times and pisses about too much when should be playing the simple pass and moving.. Honestly don't think he's this world class MF some people say he is.. very frustrating.
But he's still our best outfield player, a very good & effective player, and under a different manager and system I think he would thrive, (as we have seen him at times).
To be honest, if i was in his position i would be doing everything i could to prove Jose wrong, (which he doesn't seem too bothered about).. But at same time i can accept how frustrating and de-motivating it can to be in a job where you are being slated and scapegoated all the time. You simply wouldn't want to go to work. Especially when you know you are going to be asked to do the same boring job each day
What the media and, if you wish, Jose did on people is definitely start taking a closer look at what Pogba is doing on the pitch. Statistics are a part of the context it all has to be looked at, because the other part of the context is that we're dysfunctional team that's shit to watch and underperforming. Let me quote myself from other thread, as the other one was deemed inappropriate by the mods:
Now while my post is obviously subjective because I've had pretty much the same problems with Pogba for the last couple of years since he's gotten here (so also in the better seasons than this shitshow that we're currently experiencing), you've got a breakdown of statistics there for Matić (who's been deemed rubbish all season, and myself included, been called to be benched) and Pogba. The narrative also creates the context for it. The thing for me is, Pogba being not good enough and Mourinho being shit are not mutually exclusive, something that many people fail to grasp here and deflect any criticism of Pogba on Mourinho and his mindgames. You'll see people literally going paranoid saying that he's been bigging him up just to watch him fail against Valencia so his performance will be excused because Mourinho will field a team that's shit just to make Pogba look shit.Yeah, it's from 2018, try from 2018/19 season and see what happens when you compare Matić and Pogba. Mind you that one's apparently garbage and the other one should be the focal point of our team as he's the best player.
Defending
Passing
Attacking 1
Attacking 2
Look at the passing stats (apparently Matić always plays it backwards), number of times disspossesed (fun fact: in the first 20 of the most often disp in the league Pogba is 6th, most of the names are either wide forwards or strikers) and bear in mind that Matić is the one who's garbage this season and Pogba is a victim of Mourinho's mindgames and the fans are racist because they criticise him. There's no distance covered unfortunately but if I were to have a guess I know on whom I'd bet. Matić is always on the left. Matić played roughly 4 minutes more than Pogba iirc.
Problem is, yesterday he didn't field either of the two other donkeys in Matić and McTominay who apparently hampered Pogba's game as they're slow and offer no running. Instead, he picked Fred, who is also a 'victim' of Mourinho because he's not playing him, and Fellaini (the third donkey). There was also Mata who, even if underperforming, is still one of those who provide off-ball movement and good enough passing/technique and Andreas, albeit on a wing. So basically only Herrera was missing that could be playing in midfield, probably instead of Fellaini, to make it look better. It's not really surprising that some of the players are simply rested for the weekend, it was always going to be the case when we've qualified and, imo, rightfully so. From attacking players that would've (and had been in hindsight) an improvement only Rashford was missing as Martial is injured and dab assistant is questionable upgrade over anybody. Dalot probably and hopefully is rested for Liverpool, binning garbage Rojo for Young helped things. So generally speaking there could've been two, at stretch three players available yesterday who'd help things out.
I presume that the game plan was to use Fred/Andreas in wide areas providing crosses to Lukaku, obviously the plain failed miserably, but the context of the failed tactics is the same for everybody in the team, all the time. It's mostly just Pogba that is afforded countless excuses that there's not enough movement, too many shit players around him, shit Lukaku, shit this, shit that, but the problem is at the same time the same people who throw around those excuses fail to accept that the same better circumstances would benefit, say, the universally slated Matić. I've already said it here that Lukaku would've been crucified for yesterday's Pogba miss but he doesn't seem to get any shit for it yesterday. He hasn't shown anything yesterday that would suggest that currently he's unfairly benched. Putting aside his and Mourinho's conflict, he's just underperforming. And no, not just him.
As for the distance covered, you can go to the totals, divide them by minutes played and multiply by 90 to get distance covered in the CL per 90 minutes. Pogba averages around 10.5km/90, Matić 11.5km/90, Fellaini 11.6km/90 and Fred, with the least played minutes, 11.7km/90.
SAF was spot on.
No doubt it's everyone's fault but his own that he was poor again.
He hasn't earned his place in the squad for the weekend.
He hasn't earned his place in the squad for the weekend.
Wish someone would light a fire under his ass so he could show some intensity.
Has the ability but not the drive.
Has the ability but not the drive.
Exactly right. The Valencia game was a real chance for Pogba to shine, and he blew it (though, frankly, every one of the midfielders who started had a poor game with the arguable exception of Fellaini).
Some of the things I see all the time on here are: -
Mourinho's tactics fail to get the best out of Pogba - Managers decide upon the tactics, and it's up to players to adapt to them. Good players have no trouble doing this - it's not as if Mourinho is asking Pogba to do anything especially alien to him like play in goal. Pogba is a midfielder, and Mourinho is playing him as a midfielder. Football is a team game, and tactics are devised to suit the team as a whole, not just one player (there may be an argument for giving the likes of Messi and Ronaldo a free rein, but Pogba is not in that class).
Pogba would be better if he had better players around him - Hardly a revelation this one. The same statement could be applied to every player who has ever played the game, or will ever play the game. What sets the best players apart is their ability to raise the standards of the team and the players around them, their ability to transform ordinary teams into good ones. If Pogba could do this, he'd be selected every week.
Pogba is our best player, and we'll look stupid when we sell him and he makes it big elsewhere - Pogba's value to Manchester United is based on what he does while he plays for Manchester United. What he has done elsewhere was relevant to the decision to buy him, and to the transfer fee, but it has no bearing on his value to Manchester United now. If the manager decides that Paul Pogba doesn't merit a position in the first team, and is unlikely to do so in the foreseeable future, it's likely that the club will try to sell him. If he isn't delivering the goods here, he's of little value to the club, and selling him would be the right thing to do. If he subsequently succeeds elsewhere, then of course questions will be asked about why he didn't do well for us, but it wouldn't invalidate the decision to sell him.
There are other players who are performing just as badly as Pogba - That's a subjective point, but it's not an argument in favour selecting Pogba. Substituting one under performing player for another is hardly a recipe for success.
I'm going to simply quote myself from 2016, maybe people will understand why my view is different.
People are still acting as if the fantasy that they imagined when he wasn't a United player is real, they are not judging Pogba for what he is or what he was but on what they fantasies. In fact, the player that they imagine doesn't even exists in football. Pogba has a great potential but as long as the manager doesn't try to specialize him and give him a clear role that fits the team entire philosophy then Pogba will struggle and be inconsistent. It's not a new finding, it's not an excuse, it's a simple fact that was visible years ago.
Except he doesnt for France... Hes hit or miss in most games, as in he can do world class things but fluff the simplest passes that you need a midfielder to do.
It also helps that hes surrounded by quality in literally every position... Our club wont be at that stage for a long time, at least 3 more transfer windows, if that with the glazers stigniness.
Just ship him for 150m or whatever and get in verratti or Pjanic, stable consistent midfielders who can control the midfield with tempo.
Can't play him vs Liverpool, needs to be benched for a while and we can see how our players play without him. Mata should replace him.
Agreed. Pogba can provide moments of great quality in a game because of his immense talent. But he has no where near the game intelligence to be a conductor in midfield that will be the hub of our play and dictate games. I view Pogba's potential peak as a Lampard/Gerrard type of player, who can win games with goals and final balls. Not sure he has the mentality or engine to reach either of the level those two played at consistently.
Pogba was not great yesterday... but I feel sorry for him in all honesty.
Look at that team around him. Who is he going to play a killer pass to? The only attackers we played are Mata and Lukaku... and one of them barely runs and can't control a football. Until Young came on, we had fullbacks who didn't want to venture past the halfway line. Hardly conditions that are going to help him perform to the level he can... if he plays with the likes of Martial, Rashford and Lingard, you would see an instant improvement.
Look at that team around him. Who is he going to play a killer pass to? The only attackers we played are Mata and Lukaku... and one of them barely runs and can't control a football. Until Young came on, we had fullbacks who didn't want to venture past the halfway line. Hardly conditions that are going to help him perform to the level he can... if he plays with the likes of Martial, Rashford and Lingard, you would see an instant improvement.
this should be sticky / threadmarked.
Agree with your posts then and now. Would say he's a No.10 with slightly more responsibility in a team top heavy with world class players. We aren't that.
The biggest thing holding back Pogba is Pogba.
Until it gets to the point where hes performing but being let down by others, then he has no excuses.
That miss on top of it all, wtf? I honestly thought initially he scored but it was given offside thats why he didnt cheer. It then looked worse every time I saw a replay.
Until it gets to the point where hes performing but being let down by others, then he has no excuses.
That miss on top of it all, wtf? I honestly thought initially he scored but it was given offside thats why he didnt cheer. It then looked worse every time I saw a replay.
No, that's not true at all. Apart from the beginning of the season he was absolutely world class for us in his lasl season. Destroying every team on his way. Delivering week in and week out. The amount of chances he was creating were absurd.
The problem in Manchester is team don't play to Paul strength at all.
At juve the moment Pogba gets the ball both full backs runs forward, Dybala drop back put himself coloser to Paul and Mandzukic runs throuthr space behind defenders. These movement led Paul to creat chances left and right.
He was enjoying himself so much in his last season with us.
I would buy him in a heartbeat if he wants to come back.
At last, someone with some sense.
And believe me i was offended when Manchester bought Pogba just for 110m. Because he was worth at least twice for us.
And no one baby sited him at Juve, in his last season pirlo and Vidal were already gone last summer and Marchisio got knee injury and was out for whole season. So Pogba was our only world class midfield that year and boy he delivered tremendously.
Unfortunately we didn't have this financial power we have right now and couldn't afford keeping him.
And no one baby sited him at Juve, in his last season pirlo and Vidal were already gone last summer and Marchisio got knee injury and was out for whole season. So Pogba was our only world class midfield that year and boy he delivered tremendously.
Unfortunately we didn't have this financial power we have right now and couldn't afford keeping him.
What are these tactics that Mourinho has 'devised' to suit the team as a whole? Because I don't see it in terms of results or overall play. We look haphazard and clumsy in possession, like we're making it up as we go along and no one is on the same wavelength. You wonder what sort of drills we're running in training these days.
I'll also add that your view of tactics might be a tad simplistic if you think it simply amounts to playing midfielders in midfield and goalkeepers in goal. But then again I'm no coach.
It's possible that our expectations are too high and he's simply not good enough to elevate a team of ordinary players to victory on his own. But on the other hand, maybe our expectations of Mou are a bit too low, if we're willing to accept this pathetic attempt at team-building, signing dud after dud that hinders rather than helps the more talented members of the squad.
You're right, it's not an argument for selecting Pogba. It's an argument that there is an overriding factor to the performances and results we're seeing that doesn't simply boil down to Paul Pogba. Aren't you the least bit intrigued to see how he (and other players) might perform under a more progressive manager?
I'm confused. Our manager led us to believe that Paul Pogba is a virus that doesn't respect his teammates and fans.
Seriously though, this deserves a like at bare minimum, if not a threadmark.
Forget the part where he elevates other players, how about he elevates himself? Watching yesterday's games, there were a large number of just klutzy moves. passes to the wrong team, kicking the ball out of bounds. Not to mention how he failed to get a shot on target from 5 feet out. Honestly, there were a few time that I asked myself if he was just trying to screw up.
Last year, he stood out as a phenom even when the team sucked. This year, he doesn't.
Focusing on one Juventus poster is meaningless. Have a visit on the Juventus fan forum and look at what they are saying.
Not related to your point, Allegri's Pogba had better stats, but for me Conte's Pogba overall in game domination was something else. That's when he was scary good and was improving continuously. Unchainable.
This poster has a very high opinion of Pogba.
He certainly is, let’s see where he ends up. We could do with someone of his quality that’s for sure.
This poster thinks Pogba would fit right into their team and is a top player.
Pogba will end up at Barcelona, oh and good riddance.
This poster certainly doesnt see him in a good light.
I would say on the scale of Chiellini (Complete Professional) to Balotelli (Brain Damaged), he's probably only at a 5 or 6. I think his personality is manageable, is what I'm saying. I don't really put a whole lot of stock in his World Cup win but it showed it is possible for him to be in a team like that. And he was in a great team with us as well, so he can fit into a serious side.
This poster highlights Pogba's personality as something tough to handle.
I don't think you can put everything on Mou here. Paul sometimes just doesn't perform. He tries his tricks, and, if he fails, just go into standby mode for a good amount of time. If he gets himself going – he is amazing, but when opponents are able to frustrate him – he is useless. He is no teenager anymore, he might never grow up tbh.
So yeah, Juventus' opinion on Pogba is not really all that unanimous. They all acknowledge he's got talent and played well for them, but thats as far as the agreement goes for Juventus fans.
Not related to your point, Allegri's Pogba had better stats, but for me Conte's Pogba overall in game domination was something else. That's when he was scary good and was improving continuously. Unchainable.
This poster has a very high opinion of Pogba.
He certainly is, let’s see where he ends up. We could do with someone of his quality that’s for sure.
This poster thinks Pogba would fit right into their team and is a top player.
Pogba will end up at Barcelona, oh and good riddance.
This poster certainly doesnt see him in a good light.
I would say on the scale of Chiellini (Complete Professional) to Balotelli (Brain Damaged), he's probably only at a 5 or 6. I think his personality is manageable, is what I'm saying. I don't really put a whole lot of stock in his World Cup win but it showed it is possible for him to be in a team like that. And he was in a great team with us as well, so he can fit into a serious side.
This poster highlights Pogba's personality as something tough to handle.
I don't think you can put everything on Mou here. Paul sometimes just doesn't perform. He tries his tricks, and, if he fails, just go into standby mode for a good amount of time. If he gets himself going – he is amazing, but when opponents are able to frustrate him – he is useless. He is no teenager anymore, he might never grow up tbh.
So yeah, Juventus' opinion on Pogba is not really all that unanimous. They all acknowledge he's got talent and played well for them, but thats as far as the agreement goes for Juventus fans.
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