Spurs officially departed tonight

[Unmutual]

At one level Im minded to agree, there was no mismatch between the teams last night. It looked like what it was, a group match between two teams comfortable playing at that level.

On the other hand, Real didn't play particularly well last night & they haven't really shined all this season, and despite that Spurs never really looked like actually winning the game, so you can't go overboard. So if by "arrived" we mean they're now a solid Champions League outfit who will perform well at the group stage each year, absolutely. But they didnt look like a team with a serious chance of winning the competition.

 

[noodlehair]

It was a group game.

Look at the results in every other game last night for reference to exactly how much indication you can take rom a one off group game.

Madrid were very poor I thought. Benzema wasted chances for fun and Isco looked like Mata if he'd been out drinking the night before the game. Over all to there was just no intensity to their game apart from when they got the ball to the edge of Tottenham's area. Not what you'd associate with Madrid in recent years at all...and probably not what would have happened if it was a knockout or serious game.

 

[kouroux]

Depends what you mean 'arrived'. I am getting tired of this constant rising of the bar whenever something slightly positive is said about players or clubs. It's as if we can't praise a player other than Messi/Ronaldo or a team except the one that wins CL.

Or course Spurs aren't the best team in the competition, but by 'arrived' I think it's meant Tottenham are here to compete and will be a match for anyone despite not being among the absolute elite clubs.

What are you talking about ? It's like you've convinced yourself of something that cannot be proven. Is saying "Spurs did well but it's only the group stages" that unfair of an assessment ?

 

[Damien]

How many big away games have Spurs won under Potch?

People criticise Jose. Interesting to see the stats.

Won 1 PL away game out of 15.

 

[mitchmouse]

an excellent result for them. lots of pundits are talking about Lloris's saves but the one by Navas from Kane was world class

 

[Minimalist]

On paper it's a great moment of progress for Spurs.

That said, (and has been said) Madrid are no where near the side people still claim them to be. I was disappointed with the defeat to them in the Super Cup (trivial as it might seem) as I didn't think they were that great on the day, while everyone else (seemingly) kept declaring they were the best side in the world and we shouldn't worry about competing with them. I think the opening stages of the season suggest they are certainly not a side to be frightened of, beyond any other top side.

 

[The Bloody-Nine]

The Telegraph headlines:

Mauricio Pochettino masterclass: How Tottenham manager set side up perfectly for Real Madrid draw

Paul Hayward: Harry Kane proves he belongs in the company of Cristiano Ronaldo

'This was the greatest challenge and we've done it' - Mauricio Pochettino hails Tottenham team after famous night in Madrid


Jesus f*cking christ.....

 

[GlastonSpur]

It was a group game.

Look at the results in every other game last night for reference to exactly how much indication you can take rom a one off group game.

Madrid were very poor I thought. Benzema wasted chances for fun and Isco looked like Mata if he'd been out drinking the night before the game. Over all to there was just no intensity to their game apart from when they got the ball to the edge of Tottenham's area. Not what you'd associate with Madrid in recent years at all...and probably not what would have happened if it was a knockout or serious game.

You're claiming that a Champions League match in the group stages, when they are not assured of finishing top of the group, is not a "serious game" for RM? Pull the other one: they want to finish top of the group just as much as Spurs do because if they finish 2nd - and as a result then draw Chelsea (instead of Roma) or Manchester City (instead of S. Donetsk) - then they'll rue the day big-time.

By the way, I love the way that it's all about RM being "very poor", or them allegedly not taking the game seriously .... and nothing about how Spurs might have made them not be able to play so well, nothing about how Spurs might well have won the game if the deserved pen had actually been given or if Navas hadn't managed to get his finger-tips to Kane's shot, or hadn't managed to pull off a great save from Kane's header.

 

[Minimalist]

You're claiming that a Champions League match in the group stages, when they are not assured of finishing top of the group, is not a "serious game" for RM? Pull the other one: they want to finish top of the group just as much as Spurs do because if they finish 2nd - and as a result then draw Chelsea (instead of Roma) or Manchester City (instead of S. Donetsk) - then they'll rue the day big-time.

By the way, I love the way that it's all about RM being "very poor", or them allegedly not taking the game seriously .... and nothing about how Spurs might have made them not be able to play so well, nothing about how Spurs might well have won the game if the deserved pen had actually been given or if Navas hadn't managed to get his finger-tips to Kane's shot, or hadn't managed to pull off a great save from Kane's header.

Because you're not the first side this season to do it. Simple as that.

Spurs are a good side and Madrid are still a top side with some great talent. However, I think it's become obvious they've been stupidly overrated after retaining the CL.

 

[izec]

You would think they won 4-1 or something. They played well and could match Real in te Bernabeu, good achievement, but one would think no team managed to take a point from there in the last 10 years. Real and Ronaldo are currently far from top form as plenty of teams showed this season

 

[noodlehair]

You're claiming that a Champions League match in the group stages, when they are not assured of finishing top of the group, is not a "serious game" for RM? Pull the other one: they want to finish top of the group just as much as Spurs do because if they finish 2nd - and as a result then draw Chelsea (instead of Roma) or Manchester City (instead of S. Donetsk) - then they'll rue the day big-time.

By the way, I love the way that it's all about RM being "very poor", or them allegedly not taking the game seriously .... and nothing about how Spurs might have made them not be able to play so well, nothing about how Spurs might well have won the game if the deserved pen had actually been given or if Navas hadn't managed to get his finger-tips to Kane's shot, or hadn't managed to pull off a great save from Kane's header.

No I am claiming that you can't read too much into a one off CL group game in terms of making ridiculous assumptions/claims like "Spurs have arrived". So now every time a team plays Real in the CL and doesn't get thrashed, it means they have "arrived"?

No English team has currently "arrived" in Europe as for years now all of our teams have been unable to compete at the business end of the CL. Real haven't in the past been all that fussed if they win their group so not sure where you are getting that from. They've won the CL 3 of the last 4 years...I doubt the idea of playing Chelsea (or anyone else) strikes fear into them...but ok.

It was a poor Real performance and you can pretend otherwise all you want, but that's what it was. They have been playing poorly and last night did so again. This is not really open for debate unless you just don't rate them as a team to begin with. They also still had to keep missing open goals in order to not win.

They are quite a bit better than Tottenham I'm afraid. I'm not entirely sure why this is difficult to accept as it is fairly obvious. It is like being annoyed at someone claiming after the opening day of the PL, that Chelsea are still a better team than Burnley. Similarly this thread is like someone opening a thread claiming Burnley have "arrived" as PL title contenders. If they put in a serious challenge to win it maybe...not because they played in a game and didn't lose it.

 

[Kapardin]

The Telegraph headlines:

Mauricio Pochettino masterclass: How Tottenham manager set side up perfectly for Real Madrid draw

Paul Hayward: Harry Kane proves he belongs in the company of Cristiano Ronaldo

'This was the greatest challenge and we've done it' - Mauricio Pochettino hails Tottenham team after famous night in Madrid


Jesus f*cking christ.....

Jeez, credit where its' due, but this is some serious cringe.

 

[Shark]

The Telegraph headlines:

Mauricio Pochettino masterclass: How Tottenham manager set side up perfectly for Real Madrid draw

Paul Hayward: Harry Kane proves he belongs in the company of Cristiano Ronaldo

'This was the greatest challenge and we've done it' - Mauricio Pochettino hails Tottenham team after famous night in Madrid


Jesus f*cking christ.....

This here is the definition of “small time”.

 

[The Bloody-Nine]

My favourite part of that Hayward crap.

At the kick-off here, he was outscoring Ronaldo in 2017, 36 to 32, though both could count 43 for club and country. Ronaldo wins the jewellery contest, with four Ballon d’Ors and a quartet of Champions League titles to go with a European Championship winner’s medal with Portugal and five league crowns in England and Spain.

Harry proved he belongs in his company by not scoring in a draw, though.

 

[poleglass red]

Great performance from Spurs. Both teams in the 2nd half could have won it. I liked Poch's set up for this. I wasn't sure when I first saw Llorente but he created 2 excellent chances in 2nd half. Not sure about that lad Aurier , too rash and reckless at times, yet does some great runs too. He looks like a red card at any moment. Spurs game plan was good, Real had possession as you'd expect but Spurs looked very dangerous on the break, impressive considering Alli was missing and Eriksen might as well have been.Good blue print for any british team playing away from home against one of the big euro teams

 

[Kostur]

Won 1 PL away game out of 15.

Oh shit, what have you done Damo.

 

[KingMinger22]

Great performance away at the European champions who had their full first 11 out.

Can't understand how anyone tries to downplay that. It's quite pathetic.

 

[Emrethis]

Great performance away at the European champions who had their full first 11 out.

Can't understand how anyone tries to downplay that. It's quite pathetic.

I think the point is that its only one good performance, and they didn't even win. Not only that but it was a group game. If we're to regard spurs as a top side now, surely the bar's got to be higher than that. Spurs should be proud of that performance, but they still have to keep their feet on the ground. They still have it all to prove. I think Spurs could break into being a 'top side', but they've not done it yet.

 

[balaks]

This here is the definition of “small time”.

To be fair it aint us who write the headlines is it?

 

[GlastonSpur]

No I am claiming that you can't read too much into a one off CL group game[/B] in terms of making ridiculous assumptions/claims like "Spurs have arrived". So now every time a team plays Real in the CL and doesn't get thrashed, it means they have "arrived"?

No English team has currently "arrived" in Europe as for years now all of our teams have been unable to compete at the business end of the CL. Real haven't in the past been all that fussed if they win their group so not sure where you are getting that from. They've won the CL 3 of the last 4 years...I doubt the idea of playing Chelsea (or anyone else) strikes fear into them...but ok.

It was a poor Real performance and you can pretend otherwise all you want, but that's what it was. They have been playing poorly and last night did so again. This is not really open for debate unless you just don't rate them as a team to begin with. They also still had to keep missing open goals in order to not win.

They are quite a bit better than Tottenham I'm afraid. I'm not entirely sure why this is difficult to accept as it is fairly obvious. It is like being annoyed at someone claiming after the opening day of the PL, that Chelsea are still a better team than Burnley. Similarly this thread is like someone opening a thread claiming Burnley have "arrived" as PL title contenders. If they put in a serious challenge to win it maybe...not because they played in a game and didn't lose it.

You also claimed that it wasn't a serious game for RM - as if they weren't too bothered about winning it or not (when not winning it might make all the difference as to whether they top the group) ... which is just another throw-away excuse to try and explain away why they didn't win, as if Spurs has nothing to do with it.

For the record, I haven't said that RM aren't a better team than Spurs, nor have I said anything about Spurs "arriving". But RM very rarely draw CL games at home - and the fact that they did last night had a fair bit to do with Spurs stopping them in their tracks and is not merely down to a variety of excuses proffered by you on RM's behalf.

Nor have I said that RM would be scared of playing Chelsea, but I bet they'd much prefer to play Roma instead - a possible fate they can only embrace by topping the group. And I'd bet they'd prefer to avoid City even more.

 

[BusbyMalone]

Where did they arrive exactly??

 

[GlastonSpur]

Where did they arrive exactly??

Joint top of a group that contains both RM and Dortmund. There'll be plenty of revisionist comments now, but check the thread concerning the group stage draw when it was made.

 

[Ludens the Red]

No I am claiming that you can't read too much into a one off CL group game in terms of making ridiculous assumptions/claims like "Spurs have arrived". So now every time a team plays Real in the CL and doesn't get thrashed, it means they have "arrived"?

No English team has currently "arrived" in Europe as for years now all of our teams have been unable to compete at the business end of the CL. Real haven't in the past been all that fussed if they win their group so not sure where you are getting that from. They've won the CL 3 of the last 4 years...I doubt the idea of playing Chelsea (or anyone else) strikes fear into them...but ok.

It was a poor Real performance and you can pretend otherwise all you want, but that's what it was. They have been playing poorly and last night did so again. This is not really open for debate unless you just don't rate them as a team to begin with. They also still had to keep missing open goals in order to not win.

They are quite a bit better than Tottenham I'm afraid. I'm not entirely sure why this is difficult to accept as it is fairly obvious. It is like being annoyed at someone claiming after the opening day of the PL, that Chelsea are still a better team than Burnley. Similarly this thread is like someone opening a thread claiming Burnley have "arrived" as PL title contenders. If they put in a serious challenge to win it maybe...not because they played in a game and didn't lose it.

Mic drop.

 

[BusbyMalone]

Joint top of a group that contains both RM and Dortmund. There'll be plenty of revisionist comments now, but check the thread concerning the group stage draw when it was made.

I congratulated them yesterday on a fantastic performance. And said they've done particularly well considering people were laughing when the group was first drawn.

However, it's a bold proclamation to say they've "arrived"

Very much the nascent stage of the tournament.

 

[Sweech]

Virtuoso displays aren't the point though. The other poster said that Spurs "are far less reliant on any single player to dig us out of a hole". I'm not sure that's the case.

Kane has now scored 5 of their 7 CL goals, excluding last night's own goal. He didn't score in August and they dropped 5 points at home. They couldn't beat Swansea and struggled at the weekend too when he wasn't scoring. The games so far this season show that when he doesn't score, Spurs struggle. That's the bottom line really, and that's the point I was answering.

Also worth considering that Kane's direct replacement at Spurs, Llorente, is a good player but not near the same level as Kane. In comparison, we have Lukaku/Zlatan, City have Aguero/Jesus, even Chelsea's replacement for Morata in Batshuahyi looks like he's developing well. It's more difficult to say with Liverpool as they don't really play with a central striker, and while Arsenal don't have any striker of Kane's level their replacement for Lacazette being Giroud is of a similar level to their main striker.

All of these things point to a reliance on Kane. Not in the same way as they relied on Bale, but to a fairly similar magnitude.

Still think this is unfair and bending stats to support an idea while ignoring all others. Like the fact Kane didn't score against Bournemouth but Spurs won.

One of the main points to me seems fairly obvious and that's Kane was injured twice last season and Spurs navigated their way through it very well and had players like Son step up and contribute a lot of goals in Kane's stead.

The other aspect is that this is a team game Alli scores more than most team's first choice striker. Then there's the fact that this team has had one of (if not the best) defences in the league for a couple years running now.

This team is much better with Kane in it - every team is better with a player like that. But they aren't reliant on Kane like they were on Bale, they've already proved it when Kane was out by continuing to be very competitive.

 

[giorno]

You're claiming that a Champions League match in the group stages, when they are not assured of finishing top of the group, is not a "serious game" for RM? Pull the other one: they want to finish top of the group just as much as Spurs do because if they finish 2nd - and as a result then draw Chelsea (instead of Roma) or Manchester City (instead of S. Donetsk) - then they'll rue the day big-time.

no, not really, we couldn't care less who we draw. Of course it was a serious game for us, we always want to win at home and we don't take CL games lightly until we're qualified

 

[prtk0811]

Great result for Tottenham yesterday. Nailed on to go through the group. I can't see them bottling from here now.

 

[Robbie Boy]

firstly, I couldn't care less what you think of the thread. Secondly, if this is what you think is a "vehement defence" then you're a very fragile fella.

This thing of trying to shut down others is hilarious.

That groupthink should shutdown anything it disagrees with.

Good grief.

You call me fragile but post this. Erm ok.

Oh and funny you say I have 'form'. I genuinely have no idea who you are and don't ever remember having a debate with you. Oh well.

 

[Fortitude]

@Fortitude
Personally I don't appreciate results that hinders the prospect of a club that I support winning a game of football.
Setting bars etc is just white noise, armchair psychologists who naively romanticise a cut throat sport

Well then you see it differently at a fundamental level because matching up with the best is the barometer of every sport and why those who win trophies via the harder route are hailed for it more than those who do not.

It has merit of course but none of this "they arrived" nonsense, they've achieved feck all so far. Doing well in the group stages is meaningless to a certain level. The real business starts in February.

Spurs lost to Genk or Gent! (whichever it was) in the fecking EL last season! Matching RM when they are not assured top place in the group is hardly meaningless. The game was far from a dead rubber. With the performance, Spurs are displaying that they belong in the competition - like an actual CL-level side, not just some team who are there to make up the numbers and go straight out of Europe or into the EL at the earliest opportunity.

 

[vadimivich]

People are getting a bit ahead of themselves. Spurs are probably favoured to get out of the group, but it's far from certain. If we lose at home to Madrid and then away in Dortmund in the next 2 match days (both completely possible) then we'll likely be even on points with Dortmund and BVB will be playing a Madrid team that's already through with no reason to compete and it would be down to tiebreakers if Spurs or Dortmund advance.

Spurs have played their 4th, 5th and 1st most difficult matches in the group (Dortmund, @APOEL, @Madrid). Still have to navigate #2 and #3 and get something from at least one of them to start talking about advancing from the group.

 

[Cheesy]

People are getting a bit ahead of themselves. Spurs are probably favoured to get out of the group, but it's far from certain. If we lose at home to Madrid and then away in Dortmund in the next 2 match days (both completely possible) then we'll likely be even on points with Dortmund and BVB will be playing a Madrid team that's already through with no reason to compete and it would be down to tiebreakers if Spurs or Dortmund advance.

Spurs have played their 4th, 5th and 1st most difficult matches in the group (Dortmund, @APOEL, @Madrid). Still have to navigate #2 and #3 and get something from at least one of them to start talking about advancing from the group.

I reckon you're pretty safely through. Almost. Struggle to see Dortmund beating both you and Real Madrid.

 

[kouroux]

Well then you see it differently at a fundamental level because matching up with the best is the barometer of every sport and why those who win trophies via the harder route are hailed for it more than those who do not.

Spurs lost to Genk or Gent! (whichever it was) in the fecking EL last season! Matching RM when they are not assured top place in the group is hardly meaningless. The game was far from a dead rubber. With the performance, Spurs are displaying that they belong in the competition - like an actual CL-level side, not just some team who are there to make up the numbers and go straight out of Europe or into the EL at the earliest opportunity.

It is in the grand scheme of things. It's obvious that last season Spurs weren't considering the EL at 100% like they are with this CL. Real Madrid aren't the best in the group stages.
They are a CL level side because they're actually playing in it regularly now in the past 2 years, not because they gave Real Madrid a match. Again, you're easily impressed.

 

[Sweet Square]

London to Madrid - £98

Bull tail stew with the lads - £12

1-1 Draw at the Bernabéu -

Priceless

 

[Gee Male]

London to Madrid - £98

Bull tail stew with the lads - £12

1-1 Draw at the Bernabéu -

Priceless

Jesus Christ, it was a fecking draw!

We're through the looking glass people.

 

[Fortitude]

It is in the grand scheme of things. It's obvious that last season Spurs weren't considering the EL at 100% like they are with this CL. Real Madrid aren't the best in the group stages.
They are a CL level side because they're actually playing in it regularly now in the past 2 years, not because they gave Real Madrid a match. Again, you're easily impressed.

There's no way that's accurate. There was a big discussion on here about that game. Spurs wouldn't have fielded their strongest xi and risk injuries to players who were vital to their PL campaign if the bolded were true, but nevermind that.

We're not going to agree on the easily impressed thing and I'm sure most Spurs' fans I've had interactions with (even in that post Genk/Gent shambles) would say I'm a harsh critic of their club/players. I can't recall Spurs looking that composed and like they belonged in the CL than in that game on Tuesday. Of course, this might end up being a backfire thread where they capitulate and go out of the competition with a whimper, but from what they displayed it looks to me like they are serious opposition and now a team that will take a certain level of performance to beat.

London to Madrid - £98

Bull tail stew with the lads - £12

1-1 Draw at the Bernabéu -

Priceless

Tough crowd.

 

[kouroux]

I've said all I could say about it and I see I'm not the only one with that opinion too.

 

[RedFish]

London to Madrid - £98

Bull tail stew with the lads - £12

1-1 Draw at the Bernabéu -

Priceless

 

[noodlehair]

You also claimed that it wasn't a serious game for RM - as if they weren't too bothered about winning it or not (when not winning it might make all the difference as to whether they top the group) ... which is just another throw-away excuse to try and explain away why they didn't win, as if Spurs has nothing to do with it.

For the record, I haven't said that RM aren't a better team than Spurs, nor have I said anything about Spurs "arriving". But RM very rarely draw CL games at home - and the fact that they did last night had a fair bit to do with Spurs stopping them in their tracks and is not merely down to a variety of excuses proffered by you on RM's behalf.

Nor have I said that RM would be scared of playing Chelsea, but I bet they'd much prefer to play Roma instead - a possible fate they can only embrace by topping the group. And I'd bet they'd prefer to avoid City even more.

Well no that isn't quite what I said. What I meant was, that if for example it was a CL knockout game, you would likely have encountered a very different Real performance. You would probably have played differently yourselves. You don't prove anything by drawing a group game. It was a good game to watch, and it was a decent result, but it was still a group game, which both teams could afford not to win.

What it had to do with was them not playing very well and also missing a host of easy chances. Spurs played well but it was still very evident who the better of the two teams were. You are not the first team this season that Real have played badly and failed to get a result against. This isn't an excuse it is a fact. The only reason you cannot accept it is because it belittles this idea of how amazing it is that Tottenham went to Real and didn't lose. You would have us believe that no team in history has ever done this or something. It's a nothing achievement in the grand scheme of things.

Tottenham don't have anything left to prove in terms of showing they are capable of being a good team, or playing football against a good team. What they have yet to prove is that they can win the tough games when it matters and actually be taken seriously as a team that might win things.

Also, a bit of an irrelevant point and obviously easier to say in hindsight, but I would expect that Real would if anything prefer to play Chelsea than Roma or Athletico. Chelsea's midfield and defence against Real's midfield and attack is not something that would end well even if Real did have an off day.

 

[B20]

draws in the group stages isn't arriving anywhere.

 

[Fortitude]

Christ I didn’t know the score and assumed Spurs had done them 3-0 or something not drawn when I saw the thread title.

Almost!