Nobody is saying we should be ahead of city but we have good enough players to be able to string a couple of passes together and play attacking positive football against weaker teams. That has everything to do with Jose
Mourinho : "Transfer spend is not enough"
- Thread starter Maradona10
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
Maybe I should've worded it to a less extreme degree but I'm on here because I'm actually curious to see what United fans think. There's no point of me posting this on Bluemoon because I'll just be repeating what most City fans are thinking or already said. But you can see why it is frustrating to have your players downplayed and then be rated because of the contrasting performances of City and United. I don't think United have that bad a squad as some are making out (these players can definitely play more exciting and expansive football) and definitely did not expect City to be performing at this level. So it irks me that City's "superior only after going 15 points clear" squad is being used as justification for Mourinho's struggles
It really depend on what market force you are talking about. Liverpool is being sucked. let's say we put Darmian and Blind in the market, and let's say Inter Milan or Barca are desperate for a defender, do you think they will offer 75m each? If Liverpool waited it out they could have got their man for 50m or 60m top, but they don't want to wait. If Virgil can salvage their 4th spot then OK, may be the extra 25m is worth it.
There are all sorts of views here, it's tough to get a generalised view of what United fans think. For instance, most balanced posters would disagree with the notion of us struggling in the first place, let alone going into why it's happening. We've had a good season so far, in attack, in defence and in the overall points tally. City being incredibly good does not change that but that's how some view it because everything gets compared to City.
What you're generalising about how the Caf rates the city squad goes the same way. You'll have sections rating it in different ways. The X>Y post of yours is off the mark for the same reason, you just used a bunch of individual comparisons, clubbed them all in one post and used that to make a point.
Not sure about the reference to Damian or Blind as neither are regard as particularly top players irrespective of who wants to buy them. The issue is still what they think they are worth irrespective of how desperate they are for the player. I think teams budget dictates their market. I suspect we'll see Liverpool recoup that money back in the summer anyway. Whilst I think they sooner have him now and I suspect it's as much to secure the signing, than the auction of the summer. That said I agree with the positive impact he could have on the team.
I’ve seen enough to know that Mourinho isn’t United class.
Forget Guardiola and City, I’m basing this just on the work he does at United alone.
There’s no identity to his team, signings haven’t been good, deals badly with defeat and the media, can’t train and improve players and can’t manage us out of slumps and bad situations.
Never mind Guardiola, Ferguson could win the league with this squad. He was light years ahead of this bloke.
Ferguson would have got a reaction out of our players after these defeats, and he certainly wouldn’t have bent over and let Pep open up a gaping 15 point lead.
Forget Guardiola and City, I’m basing this just on the work he does at United alone.
There’s no identity to his team, signings haven’t been good, deals badly with defeat and the media, can’t train and improve players and can’t manage us out of slumps and bad situations.
Never mind Guardiola, Ferguson could win the league with this squad. He was light years ahead of this bloke.
Ferguson would have got a reaction out of our players after these defeats, and he certainly wouldn’t have bent over and let Pep open up a gaping 15 point lead.
Net spend since Mou and pep started at United and city
You're telling me 40 mill is the difference in the quality of play?
He really needs to stfu.
You're telling me 40 mill is the difference in the quality of play?
He really needs to stfu.
Odd way to put it. Anybody who thinks we've been less than good is unbalanced?
If we've had a good season can you tell me the last time we put three high quality back to back performances together?
You have missed out some pertinent information.Net spend since Mou and pep started at United and city
You're telling me 40 mill is the difference in the quality of play?
He really needs to stfu.
When Jose joined us, he inherited one elite player: DDG. That's it.
When Pep joined MCFC, he inherited Kompany, De Bruyne, Silva and Aguero.
He inherited a team which over the previous 3 years, had been better than us, in each of those 3 seasons. MCFC were a better team and nobody can argue against that.
Analogy: If Jose and Pep were in a race, Pep would be the guy who had a head start over Jose AND when the race began, he was given some cheat tokens, to use at his pleasure, to ensure he stays far ahead of Jose.
In summary, you can't use net spend or total spend to compare Jose and Pep. Had Jose taken over MCFC, and Pep taken over us, Jose would be top of the league (and would probably have won the title with MCFC, last season, too).
Right...becuase Pep loves Aguero and Kompany is playing every week?
If Jose took over City they wont have kdb and Silva as their central players. and they would sit back and counter. Would jose have bought sane? Doubt it. Would Jose have bought Jesus? Would Delph start at LB? The whole dynamic of the team would change. Mou would never have won the title with City and would never achieve what pep is doing now in the style.
If Pep took over the squad we had under LvG, herrera Mata Martial would be playing at higher levels. Ppl forget when Mata joined he was actually seen as better than Silva. If pep coached Mata I have no doubt he could play in the centre.
Pep actually coaches attacks where Mou just coaches defensive phase and expects players to free style.
Honestly I am not even frustrated by this season. I think the manager is doing a good job, the players are playing at a decent level. The league cup is the only thing I am really disappointed by. City have played 20 matches and have dropped 2 points. We would literally have to be perfect to be ahead of them. I am perfectly fine with just writing off this league season when the league leaders start off like that.
You had a very different opinion summer 2016:
Below is you before the 2016/17 season. So it was a disaster then?
Not 4th.
We did not bring in arguably the best EPL manager, to finish 4th. That'll be a disaster for Jose.
I am sick and tired of fans/managers/all talking about the imaginary 4th place trophy.
The last time we had an A-Lister (3 years ago), we won the league by a large margin. We finally have Fergie's (equivalent) replacement, so whatever happens, 3rd place should be the absolute bare minimum.
In fact, 3rd place would be disappointing.
Jose made it very clear (and I agree) that the last 3 years of embarrassment, disappointment, self pity, boredom, fear and low expectations/standards, need to be forgotten.
Jose is now here and he'll take us back to where MUFC belong - competing for the league.
Not quite panned out like that has it?
I've no problem with posters changing their mind, if anything I applaud it. But please don't rewrite history. You clearly didn't think the gap between us and City summer 2016 was that big.
You claim Mourinho would have won the league with City last season. Even though he finished sixth with us, a team you predicted would be disappointed with third. Come on. You predicted he'd win the league this year and we're nowhere near.
In other words We're way behind what you predicted when Jose took over. Let's not now start shifting goal posts.
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Think about it,we have removed depay,schneiderlin,schweini,rooney and we still have like 6deadwoods in the squad,makes you start to wonder what sort of shit we have been going through and it seems we have been doing like for like replacement so far...
Herrera isn't good enough so we need a third midfielder,then back up.
We need a world class talent on the right,so Mata can be rotation or Lingard.
We need a no 10 because Micki has been subpar
The left can be shared by martial and rashford.
A back up to lukaku since Zlatan will be gone
A right back that can share minutes with Valencia..
A top class left back,so Shaw can learn from him and develop.
Bin blind,darmian,herrera,micki,carrick,zlatan..but mourinho will have to do this slowly because he won't be backed to do this in one summer window..
Herrera isn't good enough so we need a third midfielder,then back up.
We need a world class talent on the right,so Mata can be rotation or Lingard.
We need a no 10 because Micki has been subpar
The left can be shared by martial and rashford.
A back up to lukaku since Zlatan will be gone
A right back that can share minutes with Valencia..
A top class left back,so Shaw can learn from him and develop.
Bin blind,darmian,herrera,micki,carrick,zlatan..but mourinho will have to do this slowly because he won't be backed to do this in one summer window..
Nahh,herrera is shit and Mata wouldn't be able to recover quickly if he loses the ball because of his size and pace..Fair enough on martial..
Herrera was literally the club's player of the year last season.Nahh,herrera is shit and Mata wouldn't be able to recover quickly if he loses the ball because of his size and pace..Fair enough on martial..
Because he basically did the Matic role last season,since we have Matic currently,he is basically useless...we need another midfielder that offers something different either in controlling the game or playing box to box and he cnt do neither..
How quickly people here turned on Herrera is one of the strangest things I have seen on here. Even weirder when the same process happened with Smalling.
Sterling has never scored goals at this rate in his career. He could not finish and isn't a good crosser. In fact his goal scoring was something like 11 goals in 50 odd games which is Rashford levels. This is a similar inconsistency level. And like magic he is now one of the leading scorers this season
.Leroy Sane is yet to score double figures in his career to date and is on course for 1 in 3. Delph is playing LB for City.
It seems that some are able to get more out of similar profile players or even ones in foreign positions. How curious........
Once I could finally get on a laptop and not rely on my mobile I only had to look for about 5 minutes to find all of the above - one post where admittedly I don't articulate my point that clearly does not represent my view on our progress under Jose - which I believe I have been very consistent in my opinions on.
I refer several times to 'top four' and point out in a few posts we are not on City's level as we lack wide players and a full back. I also included Herrera as a player I think we could win a title with but want to retract that! I'm not right all the time, got carried away like many of us did by his performance against Chelsea!
My point is ultimately that we are making progress, but it's slow and it's sometimes ugly and that pace won't pick up any time soon whilst we are being ran by the Glazers/Woodward
You articulated your point just fine. Please let's not go down that route. A few other posters have done the same, blamed context or blamed me for twisting their words. You all said what you said.
What this shows is the folly of swapping from one opinion to another so easily. You've got your above summer quotes that yeah make it clear you think top four is realistic. Then three games into the season you think we have the best XI and can win the league.
Then last week you reckon it's only Jose's amazing ability that's keeping us within 15 points of City. Look at your XI above, you say it's only three short of winning the title!
You're all over the place because you'll say whatever just to defend the manager.
It's not just you. I've gone to a few others who claim we never had a chance even though their previous posts say differently.
What I see Mr (or Mrs) Dobbs is a poster who only sees what they want to see and ignores all evidence that doesn’t support your critique - I say critique and not view because I’ve yet to hear one of your views
I make one post where I allude to the possibility that with two additions we can win the league. I make possibly 30/40 posts where I say a good season would be a comfortable top four finish
How is that then construed as inconsistent? Can we win the league? Of course we can. Do I think we will? No. It’s not contradictory to say something CAN happen whilst also stating many times it probably won’t
Also, I totally stand by my quote of Jose. This team COULD easily be 5th or 6th with the wrong manager. Again I don’t think it WOULD be 5th or 6th with any competent manager but neither would that be a huge shock to me if it happened
You obviously enjoy an argument which isn’t a bad thing especially on an Internet forum (otherwise it would be boring) but I don’t see much give and take in your posts. It’s mainly just “I’m right youre wrong” stuff
I've been here since 2002. Let me share a little secret with you. People at the CAF tend to overrate our players immensely.
So did you with John O’Shea.
and Mcnair.
Ha ha stop doing that! You didn't allude you outright said it.
If you want to see my views just check my history. Learn a thing or two
You sold 18 playersSky actually put United with net spend more than City for 2017. Spurs and Arsenal need a clear spending shift to compete with City, Chelsea and United in the medium-term.
You don't get it, do you? It's like I would say Everton's net spend is £40 mil more than Chelsea's last summer, "you're telling me 40 mill is the difference in the quality of play"?Net spend since Mou and pep started at United and city
You're telling me 40 mill is the difference in the quality of play?
He really needs to stfu.
People need to re-read this post. It’s spot on.
Wave upon wave of niggly comments all across threads from the same posters.
From youth setup to main squad and behind the scenes, we were a mess since fergie left (and even the last 2 years with fergie). RvP papered over a huge crack.
Clubs close by have developed and advanced greatly, with a clear vision and direction without managers involvement. Our club has dallied on so many levels, happy with brand values rather than the core foundation of football at the club.
Expecting Jose to come in and fix this shithouse of a squad and setup behind the scenes by now is utterly mind bending.
Still a core squad of average players. Other managers have come in to turn-key squads with a board willing to push on. Jose has had, and still has, a battle going on to get investment and trust.
“Jose out” brigade would want to have a right look at themselves. Far greater things going on that just Jose. Yes he is human and got things wrong and contributed to some poor results, but we still 5 or 6 players away from reasonable dept. another summer of 3 in means we will still be off the pace for sure. Managers don’t like losing or falling behind. Pep as we saw before gets abrupt and picks his nose in post match interviews when a game hasn’t gone his way (well....last season since they are running away this year). Strong willed managers in anger, shock!
Time to wake up and realize the bigger issues, and getting in some other “yes-man” manager the board would only go for would put us back into “no value in the market” territory and even further behind.
Jose is the manager the current crop of United fans don’t deserve.
I'm convinced Jose will get it right before his time is up here. I see the anti-Jose hindsight brigade are out in full force again today. I think Jose is finding this his toughest challenge yet. Same as with Moyes and LvG. But Jose is a serial winner and will not accept mediocrity.
People aspiring to managers like Klopp and Pochettino fail to realise that they've had more time than Jose. Pep is the exception, but he's always been a bit of a freak manager.
People aspiring to managers like Klopp and Pochettino fail to realise that they've had more time than Jose. Pep is the exception, but he's always been a bit of a freak manager.
He has spent 300 million and fixed nothing.It is a squad with some average players but this is magnified by a manager that hasn't got a clue how to improve the team.
He has no-one in the team playing better than the were last year and our style of football stinks.
Glaze over the rest of the post I quoted and rest of what I said.
Years of bad signings, years of stagnant youth building. Bad signings over those periods. We were a mess when he arrived. We have done better but it’s a shit festive period, leading to yet another “Jose’s fault” onslaught.
Jose isn’t the main problem, as loads make out with their short sighted views. Jose is human and got a few things wrong. But when the board are doing an Arsenal and happy to be there or thereabouts, and allows the club to chug along rather than inbrace and build for the future - we are paying the price for years of neglect here - big mountain to climb.
What we spent recently is a lot, but the problem is the investment we’ve done over the last 6 years was more or less a complete waste. We weren’t turn-key when he came, 300 mill (6 players) on a squad which has relied on Fellaini and a 35 year old striker tells the story.
300mill onto a team like City, a team that was able to compete already but spluttered just as much last year, is a much different story. We are still wellbehind the squad they had last year. We are more like Arsenal and Chelsea, no trust or unwillingness from the board. Time to wake up and smell the roses
So? Your post history is riddled with posts about how Pep had made a huge mistake sticking to possession football and he was just repeated Van Gaals mistakes. Now he’s proved you wrong you instead focus on to the fact we were just better than you to begin with. People are desperate to find excuses for the reason he’s making it look easy, so opinions are changing all over the place.You sold 18 players
Simple fact for me is he’s just comfortably the best manager in the league, operating on a high budget for sure, but making other high budget managers look relatively ordinary at the moment. They have to dig deep and show they can do the same now.
The recent history of under investment is a given, there was work to be done for sure which is why Jose is paid a huge wage.
Lately the club has backed the manager and with the exception of City we have easily outspent the other clubs in the league.
Has this money been spent wisely? Where is the 300 million improvement in the performances.
Has the manager improved the players already at the club?
Do we have a style of play that the players can thrive in, never mind the paying fans enjoying?
This problem didn't start over the christmas period, these limitations have been evident for months even when we were getting results.
For sure the club has its responsibilities but the major responsibility is the managers.
Sadly Mourinho doesn't get the best out of the money he spent. Why did he even bother to buy Mkhitaryan, his defects were an open secret, if you fully trust him and play him in his best position, he'll flourish, seen at Dortmund.
Instead of Mkhitaryan and Lindelöf we should've gone after an attacker who plays between the lines, Spurs have Alli, Arsenal have Sanchez, Chelsea have Hazard, Liverpool have Coutinho and so on. United have no one and that's a big fecking problem. If money were a problem, we could've sold Mata, who's also stealing a living here.
Matic was good value, Lukaku is an okay fit (IMO), but Pogba doesn't do enough for the money he was brought in. Mourinho should've been smarter with his acquisitions, there's a reason why he's being paid big money for, folks like us already knew that the likes of Lukaku, Pogba or Matic were top drawer.
Despite the obvious negativity, i would stick with Mourinho, i know that he's grumpy these days, but he knows what it takes to manage a big club and i would continue to let him spend big, because eventually he'll get it right.
Next season Dybala, Alex Sandro, Weigl and Sanchez should be made a priority, maybe Ozil on top of that. We need to spend really big on proven players, because no doubt City and Chelsea will.
Instead of Mkhitaryan and Lindelöf we should've gone after an attacker who plays between the lines, Spurs have Alli, Arsenal have Sanchez, Chelsea have Hazard, Liverpool have Coutinho and so on. United have no one and that's a big fecking problem. If money were a problem, we could've sold Mata, who's also stealing a living here.
Matic was good value, Lukaku is an okay fit (IMO), but Pogba doesn't do enough for the money he was brought in. Mourinho should've been smarter with his acquisitions, there's a reason why he's being paid big money for, folks like us already knew that the likes of Lukaku, Pogba or Matic were top drawer.
Despite the obvious negativity, i would stick with Mourinho, i know that he's grumpy these days, but he knows what it takes to manage a big club and i would continue to let him spend big, because eventually he'll get it right.
Next season Dybala, Alex Sandro, Weigl and Sanchez should be made a priority, maybe Ozil on top of that. We need to spend really big on proven players, because no doubt City and Chelsea will.
The problem lies with our coaching. We are not coached to play between the lines and to work the ball through passing and movement. We just cross it brainlessly, even when Rashford today was outnumbered 1v3/4 in the box. Lazy and stupid. We could bring in any of Sanchez or Alli or Hazard or Coutinho and they would struggle here because we are static in our movement and lateral in our passing.
I joined the forum before LVG came here. Me being Dutch and all. Throughout his time I hoped he would do well. We saw glimpses of what was possible but all in all it wasnt a good match, whatever the reason.
I'll be honest: I dont like Jose. Never did. I see he is doing better than Moyes and LVG, but underperforming at the same time.
I cant judge him as a human being, but his manager character I really dont like. I know he is one of the best available, I just dont like some joyless, childish fecker to be the frontman of my club.
Same reason I would never want Balotelli to be a striker in my team, even if it would be a team in the lowest league.
If he delivers than its barely bearable, but if things don't go as planned for me there's nothing to defend.
I'll be honest: I dont like Jose. Never did. I see he is doing better than Moyes and LVG, but underperforming at the same time.
I cant judge him as a human being, but his manager character I really dont like. I know he is one of the best available, I just dont like some joyless, childish fecker to be the frontman of my club.
Same reason I would never want Balotelli to be a striker in my team, even if it would be a team in the lowest league.
If he delivers than its barely bearable, but if things don't go as planned for me there's nothing to defend.
I think most would agree
It's worth remember for the first time in his career Mourinho is the one who NEEDS a football club and has his begging bowl out more than we need him. Hence why he's backtracked on his "club not spent enough money" line.
He knows he can't rock the boat too much as he doesn't have the stock (sacked by both top clubs Real Madrid and Chelsea and splits opinion amongst the core hardcore supporters of United), and this is why you see the miserable, drained and whiny Mourinho. He isn't 100% himself because he has to watch everything he says/does because he doesn't have the power to survive a "eye-gouging" incident for example. He's the Theresa May of football managers currently !
It's fascinating to see how Mourinho reacts as this is the first time he's faced such pressure (not been the top dogs in terms of spending money, been the one who needs the club more than they need him, not been the media darling in England like Pep is now etc). I think he's struggling with the hottest of hot seats in football management currently.
PSG is his easy route out at the end of the season, without facing another embarrassing sacking on his CV in his 3rd season at a club (which is infamously his worse).
Either Pep and Man City will run him out of Manchester or the fans will. This will end in tears and we all know it.
He knows he can't rock the boat too much as he doesn't have the stock (sacked by both top clubs Real Madrid and Chelsea and splits opinion amongst the core hardcore supporters of United), and this is why you see the miserable, drained and whiny Mourinho. He isn't 100% himself because he has to watch everything he says/does because he doesn't have the power to survive a "eye-gouging" incident for example. He's the Theresa May of football managers currently !
It's fascinating to see how Mourinho reacts as this is the first time he's faced such pressure (not been the top dogs in terms of spending money, been the one who needs the club more than they need him, not been the media darling in England like Pep is now etc). I think he's struggling with the hottest of hot seats in football management currently.
PSG is his easy route out at the end of the season, without facing another embarrassing sacking on his CV in his 3rd season at a club (which is infamously his worse).
Either Pep and Man City will run him out of Manchester or the fans will. This will end in tears and we all know it.
Weaker teams? No team is considered weak anymore in PL. This is not xbox, all teams fighting every single game like its a final. Man City almost lost yesterday, to what you may consider weak team, do they need to sack Pep? Arsenal drew against W. Brom. All these weak teams as you call them, they can play and they can cause damage. Heck, I can see Burnley in the CL, I really do.