Shamima Begum, IS teen wants to come back to the UK

[Jippy]

Remind me… how many fair trials and human rights did ISIS grant to the people they butchered?

Come on, so the UK should base its actions on how Isis behaves? Don't give the Tories ideas...

 

[Jericholyte2]

Feck that. She was 15 not 6. She wasn't in love and did crazy things out of love. She went there and married anyone there, the only prerequsite being him being a fighter for isis. She specifally wanted one of those.


There's teenagers murdering people around the world every year. The only time we let them off is if they are clinically crazy. She clearly wasn't, proven by her ability to make her way to Syria as a 15 year old.

For the bold bits. Firstly the age doesn’t matter, she was a minor and therefore not fully legally responsible for decisions. As with examples you have of young teens killing people, they won’t be tried as adults.

Second bit shows you’ve clearly not seen the news, where a Canadian intelligence officer used their abilities to get her and others to Syria.

But sure, she had full agency and responsibility in those events.

 

[Abizzz]

For the bold bits. Firstly the age doesn’t matter, she was a minor and therefore not fully legally responsible for decisions. As with examples you have of young teens killing people, they won’t be tried as adults.

Second bit shows you’ve clearly not seen the news, where a Canadian intelligence officer used their abilities to get her and others to Syria.

But sure, she had full agency and responsibility in those events.

You really don't understand the difference between an intelligence officer and an informant?

 

[Carolina Red]

Come on, so the UK should base its actions on how Isis behaves? Don't give the Tories ideas...

They haven’t beheaded her, Jip.

 

[Carolina Red]

As with examples you have of young teens killing people, they won’t be tried as adults.

There absolutely are people under 18 tried as adults for crimes. There are stipulations in law codes exactly for that.

 

[Gehrman]

Remind me… how many fair trials and human rights did ISIS grant to the people they butchered?

Reminds me of all the people on Question time who moaned about Osama Bin Laden not getting a fair trial. Of courses she's not committed the crimes he did but she joined organization that was just as bad or worse.

 

[Carolina Red]

You really don't understand the difference between an intelligence officer and an informant?

A lot of people don’t

 

[Abizzz]

A lot of people don’t

Maybe this will help:

Spoiler: Video 'bout Informers

 

[Jericholyte2]

You really don't understand the difference between an intelligence officer and an informant?

I do, but you’re claiming she made her way of her own ability and volition.

That’s simply not the case. You then also completely sidestep the whole grooming issue.She was a minor who was groomed by a grooming gang (by any other name) and is therefore a victim.

 

[Abizzz]

I do, but you’re claiming she made her way of her own ability and volition.

That’s simply not the case. You then also completely sidestep the whole grooming issue.She was a minor who was groomed by a grooming gang (by any other name) and is therefore a victim.

She did. She used someone who was an informer. That doesn't mean anything other than that she seeked the help of someone to me. She wasn't trafficked by that person, wasn't forced, wasn't coerced. She went there on her own volition (and never claimed otherwise).

 

[Penna]

No-one on this thread is a horrible person because they have a different point of view. However, what the young woman did and her human rights are two different things. What she did is disgusting, but the second thing should be exactly what it says - her rights, as a human being.

We've had other cases of the UK where hell-raising radical preachers with strong ties to terrorist groups have been allowed to stay, because of their human rights. It's galling, but that's the difference between the rule of law and the evil-doers.

If we let that difference go, we're a little bit closer to their level.

 

[SilentWitness]

No-one on this thread is a horrible person because they have a different point of view. However, what the young woman did and her human rights are two different things. What she did is disgusting, but the second thing should be exactly what it says - her rights, as a human being.

We've had other cases of the UK where hell-raising radical preachers with strong ties to terrorist groups have been allowed to stay, because of their human rights. It's galling, but that's the difference between the rule of law and the evil-doers.

If we let that difference go, we're a little bit closer to their level.

Good post.

 

[Jericholyte2]

She did. She used someone who was an informer. That doesn't mean anything other than that she seeked the help of someone to me. She wasn't trafficked by that person, wasn't forced, wasn't coerced. She went there on her own volition (and never claimed otherwise).

Child grooming is befriending and establishing an emotional connection with a minor...to lower the child's inhibitions with the objective of sexual abuse.[3][4] Child grooming is also regularly used to lure minors into various illicit businesses such as child trafficking, child prostitution, cybersex trafficking,[5] or the production of child pornography.

Again, I ask the question, would you say the 15yr old schoolgirl who 'ran away' with her teacher who groomed her, wasn't forced or coerced? And even if they voluntarily went to X or Y, or did X or Y, they are not responsible for that as the decisions were the result of said grooming.

 

[stepic]

Remind me… how many fair trials and human rights did ISIS grant to the people they butchered?

utterly irrelevant.

 

[2cents]

She was a minor who was groomed by a grooming gang (by any other name) and is therefore a victim.

What is the actual evidence that she was ‘groomed’?

From what I recall, there was a fourth girl, Sharmeena, who went to Syria first. She had recently lost her mother and turned more religious. She got interested in ISIS and initiated contact with Aqsa Mahmood, a Scottish lady who wrote a blog about life in Syria with ISIS. Whatever exchange they had appears to have been enough to persuade Sharmeena to make the trip, and presumably Aqsa Mahmood helped arrange the logistics. After Sharmeena’s departure, the three girls then made the joint decision to follow her. They were also in touch with Aqsa Mahmood.

Now perhaps this fits the legal definition of ‘grooming’ or maybe some new information has come to light since 2019. In any case their experience doesn’t appear to have been significantly different from the many others (50,000+) who investigated ISIS online, liked what they learned, and made the trip.

I do accept that due to their age there may be diminished responsibility, legally speaking. And there do appear to have been some mitigating circumstances which may elicit some sympathy, such as Sharmeena’s mother’s death, or the fact that the father of one of the other girls had previously attended al-Muhajirun protests. Not sure if anything like that has ever been revealed about Shamima’s life.

 

[Raven]

Remind me… how many fair trials and human rights did ISIS grant to the people they butchered?

Yikes. You should stop.

Surely we hold ourselves to a higher standard than fecking ISIS?

 

[mu4c_20le]

I’m well aware.

Would you execute her if it was an option?

 

[hobbers]

The latest update that she was groomed by a western intelligence agent is incredible.

The fact that we ourselves have apparently convinced and brain washed a child to go to Syria to commit act of terrorism, only to then to make that person stateless when they ask to come home, pretty much sums up the west.

Incredible in the sense that it's a completely fictitious version of events, yeh.

 

[Jericholyte2]

What is the actual evidence that she was ‘groomed’?

From what I recall, there was a fourth girl, Sharmeena, who went to Syria first. She had recently lost her mother and turned more religious. She got interested in ISIS and initiated contact with Aqsa Mahmood, a Scottish lady who wrote a blog about life in Syria with ISIS. Whatever exchange they had appears to have been enough to persuade Sharmeena to make the trip, and presumably Aqsa Mahmood helped arrange the logistics. After Sharmeena’s departure, the three girls then made the joint decision to follow her. They were also in touch with Aqsa Mahmood.

Now perhaps this fits the legal definition of ‘grooming’ or maybe some new information has come to light since 2019. In any case their experience doesn’t appear to have been significantly different from the many others (50,000+) who investigated ISIS online, liked what they learned, and made the trip.

I do accept that due to their age there may be diminished responsibility, legally speaking. And there do appear to have been some mitigating circumstances which may elicit some sympathy, such as Sharmeena’s mother’s death, or the fact that the father of one of the other girls had previously attended al-Muhajirun protests. Not sure if anything like that has ever been revealed about Shamima’s life.

At 15 she began communicating with males in their twenties and was convinced to travel to Syria, join ISIS & marry a 27yr old where she was then raped and faced losing several children to the ensuing pregnancies.

In what way is that not grooming?

 

[Carolina Red]

utterly irrelevant.

Not to me.

Actions have consequences. Join a group that's committing a genocide, and you might find yourself forfeiting some rights and spending the rest of your days in a detention camp for captured members of that group.

 

[Superden]

Remind me… how many fair trials and human rights did ISIS grant to the people they butchered?

Perhaps you should raise your expectations of how a society should function?

 

[Smores]

Not to me.

Actions have consequences. Join a group that's committing a genocide, and you might find yourself forfeiting some rights and spending the rest of your days in a detention camp for captured members of that group.

Do you not have the slightest bit of critical thinking on the subject though? Put it this way the way you see the opinions of the Trump cult is how the rest of us see your opinion here. I'm surprised after Gitmo there's not more self reflection.

Again i'd repeat the point, human rights are our standard for our own purposes to stop us descending. Lowering them is just a slight on our societies it's nothing to do with the accused.

 

[Superden]

This thread is mirroring a daily mail comments section. Its quite grotesque, you could argue the lack of any empathy whatsoever for a child (and yes she was a child, regardlessof where she went or what she did, or what skin colour she is) is a slippery slope that leads to terror.

Imagine the reaction to the grooming gangs scandals if someone said oh well..some of the girls were 14/15 and they did it for the drink / drugs, they shouldve known better.

 

[hobbers]

I do, but you’re claiming she made her way of her own ability and volition.

That’s simply not the case. You then also completely sidestep the whole grooming issue.She was a minor who was groomed by a grooming gang (by any other name) and is therefore a victim.

Exactly how much responsibility do you place at her feet for choosing to leave the UK, going to Syria entirely under her own steam (merely facilitated by someone who happened to be an informant) and join a death cult? Because the impression you're giving is zero.

Christ we talk about giving 16 year olds the vote. But we'll have to put that idea in the bin since apparently a 15 year old is still just a child, with zero agency and no responsibility for their actions.

She might fit the definition of online grooming, though that's just an assumption with no real evidence. But she categorically was not trafficked. She wasn't sold a lie, she was sold reality and wholeheartedly bought into that reality.

 

[Superden]

Not to me.

Actions have consequences. Join a group that's committing a genocide, and you might find yourself forfeiting some rights and spending the rest of your days in a detention camp for captured members of that group.

On that basis, anyone civilian who supports a political party that supports any war mongering is now a legitimate target for the other side.. or say Putin is perfectly entitled to nuke the USA for their support of ukraine?

Actually rereading my comment, thats exactly the approach the US took to civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan...labelling them enemy combatants before smashing them to pieces with drone attacks.

 

[Carolina Red]

Yikes. You should stop.

Surely we hold ourselves to a higher standard than fecking ISIS?

Would you execute her if it was an option?

Perhaps you should raise your expectations of how a society should function?

Did I say that we should slowly behead her or booby trap her dead child and put them in the street so she’d see it, run to it, and then be killed? No.

 

[2cents]

At 15 she began communicating with males in their twenties and was convinced to travel to Syria, join ISIS & marry a 27yr old where she was then raped and faced losing several children to the ensuing pregnancies.

In what way is that not grooming?

Who were the males in their 20s? How did they convince her? From what I recall the key link was Aqsa Mahmood, although I haven’t followed the story closely since 2019, so perhaps i’ve missed something. I don’t remember any of the details of the correspondence with Aqsa Mahmood being made public. So there does seem to be some relevant information missing before we can determine with certainty that she was groomed. Peer/group pressure seems likely have been a major factor.

According to her own interview she applied to be married on arrival (and according to the husband he was a bit hesitant due to her age), and in 2019 she was still speaking of her husband with affection. There’s no indication from her that she was forced into the marriage. The age of consent in Syria seems to be 15 (from a quick google), although the question of what jurisdiction could possibly apply in ISIS territory is interesting.

Anyway, please remember that at the same time she was there, “living a normal life” (her words), the organization she chose to join was buying and selling literal sex-slaves acquired through an attempted genocide.

 

[Carolina Red]

On that basis, anyone civilian who supports a political party that supports any war mongering is now a legitimate target for the other side.. or say Putin is perfectly entitled to nuke the USA for their support of ukraine?

Actually rereading my comment, thats exactly the approach the US took to civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan...labelling them enemy combatants before smashing them to pieces with drone attacks.

I’m pretty sure it would mean that Ukraine is justified in putting the people who committed Bucha into a detention camp, but sure, go with your “logic”.

 

[Carolina Red]

Do you not have the slightest bit of critical thinking on the subject though? Put it this way the way you see the opinions of the Trump cult is how the rest of us see your opinion here. I'm surprised after Gitmo there's not more self reflection.

Again i'd repeat the point, human rights are our standard for our own purposes to stop us descending. Lowering them is just a slight on our societies it's nothing to do with the accused.

She’s receiving way more human rights than the people butchered by ISIS received, so I’d say she should consider herself lucky.

You do bad things though, you forfeit some rights. She’s found that out.

 

[That'sHernandez]

She’s receiving way more human rights than the people butchered by ISIS received, so I’d say she should consider herself lucky.

You do bad things though, you forfeit some rights. She’s found that out.

You do bad things, you forfeit some rights after the due process of justice has been carried out. That is how Western society operates, and that is what separates us from the barbaric organisations such as ISIS.

 

[Raven]

Did I say that we should slowly behead her or booby trap her dead child and put them in the street so she’d see it, run to it, and then be killed? No.

Feck me.

 

[Jericholyte2]

Exactly how much responsibility do you place at her feet for choosing to leave the UK, going to Syria entirely under her own steam (merely facilitated by someone who happened to be an informant) and join a death cult? Because the impression you're giving is zero.

Christ we talk about giving 16 year olds the vote. But we'll have to put that idea in the bin since apparently a 15 year old is still just a child, with zero agency and no responsibility for their actions.

She might fit the definition of online grooming, though that's just an assumption with no real evidence. But she categorically was not trafficked. She wasn't sold a lie, she was sold reality and wholeheartedly bought into that reality.

Even by your definition of giving 16yr olds the vote, she wouldn't count - she. was. a. fifteen. year. old. child!

Regarding the bold bit, are you suggesting that it's fine for adults to court children online, convince them to travel across the world, and marry them?

 

[Carolina Red]

Feck me.

I know right? That’s what ISIS did. So I’d be careful about comparing staying in a detention camp to their version of removal of rights.

 

[onemanarmy]

I know right? That’s what ISIS did. So I’d be careful about comparing staying in a detention camp to their version of removal of rights.

I know the US isn't exactly the moral compass of western civilization, but you surely should aim higher than the likes of ISIS.

 

[Jericholyte2]

If you have to resort to 'well at least we're not slowly beheading people!' then I think an argument is beginning to wane.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating her coming back with just a slap on the wrist. She should face trial with the caveat of her initial actions happening after having been groomed as a child.

Plus, this action does nothing but help the terrorists win! All they need to do is go to a vulnerable child and suggest, "You see what they did to Shamima Begum right? The first chance they got they revoked her citizenship! They wouldn't hesitate to do it to you too!"

 

[Raven]

I know right? That’s what ISIS did. So I’d be careful about comparing staying in a detention camp to their version of removal of rights.

Wow. I suggest you have a long hard think about your world view. You're not coming across very well at the moment.

 

[NotThatSoph]

I know the US isn't exactly the moral compass of western civilization, but you surely should aim higher than the likes of ISIS.

National version of those old Cleveland mock tourism ads.

America - at least we're not ISIS.

 

[stepic]

Wow. I suggest you have a long hard think about your world view. You're not coming across very well at the moment.

he won't. it's like talking to a brick wall.

 

[Carolina Red]

I know the US isn't exactly the moral compass of western civilization, but you surely should aim higher than the likes of ISIS.

Ibid

Did I say that we should slowly behead her or booby trap her dead child and put them in the street so she’d see it, run to it, and then be killed? No.

 

[Carolina Red]

Wow. I suggest you have a long hard think about your world view. You're not coming across very well at the moment.

You got it, dude!