[K2K]

No, you would. But there's lots of good reasons why other people don't, including some elite managers he's played under. If you see discipline as an extension of effort, and you think everyone should have the same capacity for effort, then it's not unreasonable to think that he should be able to do that. Lots of other football cultures don't think that way at all, and lots of psychological theories would challenge that notion of effort, grit, or whatever you want to call it.

Xavi in a midfield two with few passing options and lots of defensive responsibility was not world class. In his ideal role in an ideal team, he's arguably better than anyone has ever been in that position. Spanish football fans don't hold it against Xavi that when he did play a much more exposed and responsible role, he wasn't that great. Glenn Hoddle is one of the most talented midfielders ever born in this country but he was perceived by many English fans, players and coaches as fairweather players - while on the continent he was seen by many to be exceptional. Pirlo was amazing in different positions and different roles in different eras, but if you're asking him to be a 2-man midfield alongside an immobile and slow-thinking water-carrier, you're going to see a poor and inconsistent version of himself. Cesar Cueto's one of the most magical playmakers I've ever seen, but you don't need to see much of him to know he needed the platforms his club and country provided for him to be exceptional.

The different sets of priorities and expectations shape your evaluation of his performance, which is entirely inevitable, but we should be able to step back and recognise that our priorities and expectations aren't right. They're just a subjective impression we've built up over time, primarily watching a different kind of football to the one that Pogba associates with and excels in. Most players with Pogba's skillset, style and "philosophy" needed way more support to perform than what you're saying. The two big differences are that Pogba's physique give you the impression that he could be so much more than that, and he's spent a lot of time in English football so we should expect him to have acclimatised differently. IMO, that's the same kind of thinking that makes some British people annoyed that some folks in foreign countries aren't able to understand English. It's a small, mostly harmless belief that is IMO a little ignorant.

Top post.

 

[K2K]

It's a Pogba thread, but you're telling us that he isn't world class, so you must be able to prove it and the best way to do so is by comparing his performance with a midfielder you deem world class.

As I said it easy to blame a player, but proving that he's not good is another thing. You said that we struggled because of Pogba, I want you to prove me how this is true, tell us how we struggle to win or score because of Pogba. Tell us how Fellaini have been better than him, I'm really curious, I want you to unlight me because, as you said, I'm deluded if I think he's world class, so I want you to prove it to me instead of telling us some lies.

I don't expect you to get an answer.

People peddle a lot of BS. Usually silence when asked to back it.

 

[Brwned]

Very insightful post @Brwned

Pogba gets it in the neck from people like Souness because not only does he clash with the British concept of what a midfielder is supposed to do, he doesn't fit people's perceptions of how a footballer is meant to act. I think many find it difficult to be objective about him or see what he brings to the team.

I think we're all pretty useless at being objective, at least with respect to football. If you're not watching it from a subjective, emotion filled perspective then I honestly think you're wasting your time. There's way more interesting things to be emotionless about.

In the case of Souness for example, it's that single mindedness and unrelenting demand for grit that made him exceptional. Without that he would have been a very accomplished player but not special. That's just the prism that he views football through, and quite possibly just how he sees life. I'd prefer Pogba was less of a jester but you can see how that mindset allows him to do some really exceptional things.

We should all expect him to be more consistent, but I don't personally think it's reasonable to expect him to be a different kind of player. We didn't ask Roy Keane to be Zidane, and I think what many people are asking of Pogba is not too dissimilar (in reverse). Ultimately I just think the people who need that from him are missing out on the magic he frequently brings to the table.

But that's all it is - just a subjective thought. I don't think we need to elevate discussions on a football forum to be anything beyond that, but we should at least acknowledge it.

 

[E-mal]

@Brwned your posts in this thread have been very refreshing, people always have preset idea of how they see football and their expectation of how a particular footballer should be.
Pogba is of a different ilk and he is still developing as a midfielder. The likes of Xavi and Iniesta only came to their prime and found consistency when Guardiola took over.
Modric only finally delivered after Mourinho left Madrid.
Even if we are to analyze his performance since he came back from Juventus, he has been at least a 6/10, we are a far better team with him in the team. He is definitely not a palce we need upgrading.

 

[Sterling Archer]

I think we're all pretty useless at being objective, at least with respect to football. If you're not watching it from a subjective, emotion filled perspective then I honestly think you're wasting your time. There's way more interesting things to be emotionless about.

TRUTH. I'd get that printed on the back of a t-shirt, with Pogba wearing a beret in a che-type mock up on the front.

 

[RedTiger]

I think we're all pretty useless at being objective, at least with respect to football. If you're not watching it from a subjective, emotion filled perspective then I honestly think you're wasting your time. There's way more interesting things to be emotionless about.

In the case of Souness for example, it's that single mindedness and unrelenting demand for grit that made him exceptional. Without that he would have been a very accomplished player but not special. That's just the prism that he views football through, and quite possibly just how he sees life. I'd prefer Pogba was less of a jester but you can see how that mindset allows him to do some really exceptional things.

We should all expect him to be more consistent, but I don't personally think it's reasonable to expect him to be a different kind of player. We didn't ask Roy Keane to be Zidane, and I think what many people are asking of Pogba is not too dissimilar (in reverse). Ultimately I just think the people who need that from him are missing out on the magic he frequently brings to the table.

But that's all it is - just a subjective thought. I don't think we need to elevate discussions on a football forum to be anything beyond that, but we should at least acknowledge it.

Quality post brother.

 

[Amar__]

We should all expect him to be more consistent, but I don't personally think it's reasonable to expect him to be a different kind of player. We didn't ask Roy Keane to be Zidane, and I think what many people are asking of Pogba is not too dissimilar (in reverse). Ultimately I just think the people who need that from him are missing out on the magic he frequently brings to the table.

I have read your few posts regarding Pogba, and you always talk like people expect him to be consistently brilliant. No, no one expects him to make long range passes, dribbles, stepovers or whatever every two minutes during a game, when people talk about consistency least what we expect from him is not to be our worst player in the first 20 minutes against Cardiff. Just being another midfielder on the pitch who does basic things like passing the ball to nearest teammate succesfully, or actually being able to control the ball would be more than enough. I would rather he had one assist less against Cardiff and played first 20 minutes like let's say someone like Cleverley.

And before you say he is that kind of player, I don't think that's good enough for central midfielder in a top team, I can't remember one top team who had midfielder who could gave a ball regulary 3 times in a space of few minutes and being called top midfielder, that's just not acceptable for a top midfielder no matter what kind of move he does after 10 minutes. He is not a winger or forward, and he is not that influential in big games. Maybe if he could repeat those performances in big games we could live with his bad moves now and then, but he never proved himself as some great player in big games so his team can forgive him his inconsistency.

I think you actually overrate him a lot, didn't you also talk about his long range shooting as potentially one of the best ever at United, and he isn't close to best shooter in the team at the moment, let alone in history.

 

[In Rainbows]

I have read your few posts regarding Pogba, and you always talk like people expect him to be consistently brilliant. No, no one expects him to make long range passes, dribbles, stepovers or whatever every two minutes during a game, when people talk about consistency least what we expect from him is not to be our worst player in the first 20 minutes against Cardiff. Just being another midfielder on the pitch who does basic things like passing the ball to nearest teammate succesfully, or actually being able to control the ball would be more than enough. I would rather he had one assist less against Cardiff and played first 20 minutes like let's say someone like Cleverley.

And before you say he is that kind of player, I don't think that's good enough for central midfielder in a top team, I can't remember one top team who had midfielder who could gave a ball regulary 3 times in a space of few minutes and being called top midfielder, that's just not acceptable for a top midfielder no matter what kind of move he does after 10 minutes. He is not a winger or forward, and he is not that influential in big games. Maybe if he could repeat those performances in big games we could live with his bad moves now and then, but he never proved himself as some great player in big games so his team can forgive him his inconsistency.

I'm not sure what your point is other than world class players never make mistakes. He btw was part of a midfield 3 considered the best in the world along with Barca while at Juve. So you can remember one top team who had that kind of midfielder.

And your Cleverley bit is awful. You would take one less goal for the side if it meant 20 minutes of which he probably had like 15 or so passes in that time, to be slightly more accurate? I think you're putting too much emphasis on those 20 minutes. And you're also exaggerating how often that part of his game shows up. He's our best passer.

 

[Brwned]

I have read your few posts regarding Pogba, and you always talk like people expect him to be consistently brilliant. No, no one expects him to make long range passes, dribbles, stepovers or whatever every two minutes during a game, when people talk about consistency least what we expect from him is not to be our worst player in the first 20 minutes against Cardiff. Just being another midfielder on the pitch who does basic things like passing the ball to nearest teammate succesfully, or actually being able to control the ball would be more than enough. I would rather he had one assist less against Cardiff and played first 20 minutes like let's say someone like Cleverley.

And before you say he is that kind of player, I don't think that's good enough for central midfielder in a top team, I can't remember one top team who had midfielder who could gave a ball regulary 3 times in a space of few minutes and being called top midfielder, that's just not acceptable for a top midfielder no matter what kind of move he does after 10 minutes. He is not a winger or forward, and he is not that influential in big games. Maybe if he could repeat those performances in big games we could live with his bad moves now and then, but he never proved himself as some great player in big games so his team can forgive him his inconsistency.

I think you actually overrate him a lot, didn't you also talk about his long range shooting as potentially one of the best ever at United, and he isn't close to best shooter in the team at the moment, let alone in history.

The first few words of the paragraph you quoted were that we should all expect him to be more consistent. Your main point, as I understand it, is that he should be more consistent.

So I'm confused why you think we're on a different page, but honestly I don't really care. A consistent Pogba is possibly the best midfielder in the world, as I see it. I'm sure we all hope that's what he becomes.

If you're more interested in telling people they're wrong than watching him flourish then I think you've got things mixed up, but that's just me. Whatever floats your boat. But the paragraph you've quoted really has nothing to do with the point you've made.

 

[Sterling Archer]

The Cardiff match was an interesting one for me...not Pogba's football performance but rather that of the teammate. He let Rashford take the freekick and then again with Jesse when we won the penalty. But he was in there celebrating each goal with fervor. I really appreciated that. He didn't use these moments to bring the spotlight back to him - could imagine headlines with him scoring - but instead seemed to bring the squad together. Team effort.

Maybe I'm making too much of it. But also with his latest remarks thanking Jose for trophies, good signs especially post IG incident . Move on and show the fans he means business for us and the team .

 

[Adisa]

He's a perfect foil for Martial. He drifts wide, allowing Tony to come inside.

 

[OldTrevil]

Rumours going around that he will be made captain.

Great news.

Would be a fantastic move. He is by far our best player, is a great dressing room influence and is able to lead a team to a common goal as we've seen with France. Also if you ignore the nonsense you will see he is always vocal on the pitch and looking out for his teammates. To top it off, it would be a big 'up yours' to the tabloid nazis and negative noise that are always gunning for blood from the outside. I can easily see the team rallying behind him as captain for an extended winnning streak and charge up the table.

 

[Sultan]

Brilliant and insightful posts as ever from @Brwned. I think the press and some sections of our fanbase should take note.

 

[Sultan]

Would be a fantastic move. He is by far our best player, is a great dressing room influence and is able to lead a team to a common goal as we've seen with France. Also if you ignore the nonsense you will see he is always vocal on the pitch and looking out for his teammates. To top it off, it would be a big 'up yours' to the tabloid nazis and negative noise that are always gunning for blood from the outside. I can easily see the team rallying behind him as captain for an extended winnning streak and charge up the table.

Just imagine the signal Ole would be sending to Jose. Although I'd love the idea, I'm not sure it will happen with some coming out with claims it's too early and accuse Ole "dancing on the grave" of a sacked manager.

 

[OldTrevil]

Just imagine the signal Ole would be sending to Jose. Although I'd love the idea, I'm not sure it will happen with some coming out with claims it's too early and accuse Ole "dancing on the grave" of a sacked manager.

Who cares about the cnut? It's all about Man Utd and what gives the team the best chance to win. Yes it would be a major rebuke of Jose, but the way he demeaned the club consistently while he was manager, he deservers more than a major rebuke from all former United greats let alone Ole.

 

[breakout67]

If Pogba can play at a high level against most minnows he'll be the best midfielder in the world in my opinion. Because his big game performances are his best part for me, when he is focused he is a ridiculously good midfielder.

Bear in mind im not on this train of him 'proving' that he was right. Pogba's been unplayable like this before and still put in horrible performances later on. It has little to do with his talent and more to do with him being temperamental against lesser opposition.

 

[redshaw]

In euro 2016 Pogba had a poor tournament. Deschamps played him deep and it didn't work for him. Strangely we played him the same way while Deschamps saw the error.

He's too skillful and creative to sit deep. I hope we can keep the attacking emphasis. He would flourish in a top team.

 

[WensleyMU]

Can some of you lots simply just bore off already?

We get it, you lot can't go a day without trying to find shit to complain about when it comes to Pogba and with him having started his post Mourinho life well, you're uneasy and want to over scrutinise whatever he does.

Just do one already. So pathetic now. The hope was that with Mourinho gone some of you would feck off with him or calm down a bit but I guess somethings are just hard to rid off like coackroaches.

God our fan base contains some pathetic specimens

 

[WensleyMU]

I am really excited to see how good Pogba can become, but it really pisses me off when people start calling him the best midfielder in the world again after one game against shit opposition in which he wasn't even that good. Every fecking time he puts one or two good performance somehow we have same shite here. I want him to succed as much as many United fans, I can't live from my United hating mates criticising him all the time, but feck it he is not even close to being best in the world. He was never at any point the best midfielder in the world.

However, I think he has the potential to be the midfielder best in history, whether he will turn out to be or not that's for all of us to witness. Let's hope he does, and let's hope he starts performing at good and consistent level as soon as possible.

Now this is a sensible post.

There's not a United fan who doesnt want to see Pogba succeed here and become great. But he's not there yet and he's a long way to go. We've seen glimpses so far, and we've seen some negatives.

 

[Adisa]

Someone check on Souness, Neville and Keane.

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[gaucho_10]

Modric only finally delivered after Mourinho left Madrid.

He was Real Madrid's best player in second half of the season by a country mile. He needed Mourinho to start playing him deeper in place of Khedira and not Ozil.

That Marca poll at mid seasom was just bunch of Barca fans making themselves feel better about signing Song.

 

[Synco]

In euro 2016 Pogba had a poor tournament. Deschamps played him deep and it didn't work for him. Strangely we played him the same way while Deschamps saw the error.

He's too skillful and creative to sit deep. I hope we can keep the attacking emphasis. He would flourish in a top team.

Wasn't Pogba's role in 2018 pretty similar to 2016? What I remember is the 2016 team having Sissoko as a CM/wide midfielder on the right, while the 2018 one had Matuidi in a similar role on the left, both players making it some kind of midfield three with Pogba playing relatively deep.

 

[el3mel]

Wasn't Pogba's role in 2018 pretty similar to 2016? What I remember is the 2016 team having Sissoko as a CM/wide midfielder on the right, while the 2018 one had Matuidi in a similar role on the left, both players making it some kind of midfield three with Pogba playing relatively deep.

Exactly. There's nothing different from the way France used Pogba imo. It's just that he decided to up his game massively because it's World Cup. If Pogba is on his day he can play anywhere in midfield, it's just he's not always on his day is the problem he needs to solve, that's all.

 

[JPRouve]

Pogba wasn't poor at the Euro, it's Matuidi that wasn't good in that DM role. And France played differently for the simple reason that Payet was replaced by Mbappé and the transition game was more direct at the WC.

 

[MDFC Manager]

Someone check on Souness, Neville and Keane.

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Stupid cnut. Why is he not resting and/or trying to get better at football. So unprofessional.

 

[MadDogg]

Exactly. There's nothing different from the way France used Pogba imo. It's just that he decided to up his game massively because it's World Cup. If Pogba is on his day he can play anywhere in midfield, it's just he's not always on his day is the problem he needs to solve, that's all.

I do agree with this to some extent, but I think it's also fair to say it's easier for him to be consistent in some set ups than it is in others.

 

[el3mel]

I do agree with this to some extent, but I think it's also fair to say it's easier for him to be consistent in some set ups than it is in others.

Fair and correct point but I wanted to say World cup and cups in general aren't measurement of consistency but quality. They're just 7 games he needs to show his quality in. The leagues are the measurement of consistency and how you can cope with +40 games a season with same level. Will be interesting to see what Pogba will offer in this department starting from next season.

 

[redshaw]

In Euro 2016 Pogba did a lot of defensive duties, it was stated well at the time but maybe some have forgotten just how much. Other players did a lot of going forward like Sissoko.

 

[Ishkar]

Exactly. There's nothing different from the way France used Pogba imo. It's just that he decided to up his game massively because it's World Cup. If Pogba is on his day he can play anywhere in midfield, it's just he's not always on his day is the problem he needs to solve, that's all.

It's different because the players are different. I'm French so I watch France games, and as JPRouve said, it's not the same players around him. Now, we have Matuidi in left position so it's basically a similar role than Sissoko had in right position. But in 2016 we had Matuidi and not Kanté with Pogba in center midfield.

It's completely different, because in national team Kanté has a really defensive role and does not play like with Sarri. Matuidi, on the opposite, plays more like a Vieira-style I would say. For Payet and Mbappé... they don't have the same talent, of course, and are completely different kind of players. Payet is a kind of 10 who likes to touch often the ball and to dribble but he doesn't take space. Mbappé is a forward, likes to dribble, to shoot and he really doesn't play like a midfielder. So the main difference with Payet is that we have another forward, in consequence more passing options. If you watched France in the World Cup, you probably see that MBappé was basically more a forward than Giroud, who really was more a support (I don't know the word in english for this role) than a space eater. But we had Mbappé and Matuidi for that.

The problem when I see Pogba in Manchester is that there is a lack of this kind of profile. It's nice to have some strong players, but when you have only one pure dribbler (Alexis) and don't create space, it's difficult for a player like Pogba to shine. He's good when he can make a little bit of everything. But when he has to be the caricature of himself, he's pretty bad. In France, he wasn't play well when we had the same problem as Manchester under Mourinho. But in the World Cup, it was not Pogba who was better, it was the whole team, and in consequence, Pogba was good because he could bring this little bit of everything to the team. He didn't have to dribble because there was no movement around him. Even if he's strong, can be impressive with some dribble, Pogba is really dependant on teammates, and it was the problem until now in Manchester. When you offer him solutions, he has a good vision and a damn good technique to make the right move.

 

[Rolaholic]

What a player...

Anyone advocating for his sale has lost the plot

 

[shamans]

The idea that some wanted him sold. What a player. From start to finish. Purposeful. Incredible. Just World Class

 

[.Rossi]

Hope he keeps smashing my back doors in with performances like that.

Glorious

 

[villain]

If he's a virus, then I need him to infect me

 

[el3mel]

What a game. Magnificent even without the goals. Dominated the midfield and I don't think he was even dispossessed once. Keep it up Pog. We need more of this regularly.

 

[Stadjer]

Carried the team today... he really is such a good player and it is ridiculous that he has been benched for someone like McTominay

 

[LARulz]

I liked how angry he was when we conceded. Need to keep standards high for everyone

 

[FootyGirl88]

Great game today - people that wanted him sold are clueless

 

[Caius]

Just wanted to say...WHAT A SEXY FECKING BEAST!!

 

[#07]

Bossed it. Mourinho's departure has lifted a weight off him.

 

[Posh Red]

Let’s sell him because he said we should attack more or something

 

[mu4c_20le]

Looked scary every time he bombed forward and lingered outside their penalty area.