Roane
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Yes, I've read it. There is one small section on the girls that doesn't really tell anything that isn't widely known already.
I edited the above response
Yes, I've read it. There is one small section on the girls that doesn't really tell anything that isn't widely known already.
Just to be clear…
You’re mad because I quoted the DSM-V definition of schizophrenia diagnosis and applied it to a certain individual, and since you’re mad about that implication, you’re comparing that to judging a 15 year old who watched videos on the internet and then went to marry and live with an ISIS member.
I edited the above response
CSE being child sexual exploitation
Choosing is the key word.Not mad at all. Just curious why you wouldn't apply the same principles here. Choosing to dismiss it, or sonit appears.
The WHO and NSPCC also speak of mental health of teenagers and naivity to grooming for gangs, sexual exploitation and extremism.
Sorry if that seems like anger/being mad to you
OK but that doesn't change the fact the section on the girls is very sparse. Also...
The chapter makes a distinction between child sexual exploitation (CSE) and 'radicalisation', and discusses the girls in the context of the latter category rather than the former:
"It has also been recently argued that the way harm manifests in radicalisation can be quite different to CSE. Young people targeted do not have to be ‘vulnerable’ in the CSE sense (for example being in care) they can be well educated and well cared for as in the case of the three Bethnal Green girls."
Choosing is the key word.
You don’t choose schizophrenia. You are a victim of it.
Begum made a choice to talk to ISIS online. She made a choice to watch the propaganda videos. She made a choice to leave her home and family. She made a choice to travel a continent away. She made a choice to get herself smuggled into Syria. She made a choice to marry and have kids with a soldier of a genocidal death cult.
At what point do you realize that if she’s a victim of anything, it is of her own abject stupidity?
Also a victim of their own abject stupidity.Shamima wasn't the first overall or from that school. Tareena Shakil for example has a similar story. Back in the UK these days.
It is not a defense for going a continent away to join a fecking genocidal death cult. Just like being 15 isn’t a defense to it either.Is it really out there to suggest there maybe an element of grooming, similar to CSE?
Yeah, ISIS has a reputation for killing everyone in their path. Someone shoulda told herHe simply said that her life would be at risk if she vehemently opposed Isis
It puts forward that as an argument however other quotes from the article show the similarities and how it's categorised as grooming.
In the UK Ofsted, the Office for Standards in Education, Children’s Services and Skills...require organisations to teach children and young people about being groomed: ‘…how to keep themselves safe from relevant risks such as abuse, sexual exploitation and extremism, including when using the internet and social media’
‘In order for schools and childcare providers to fulfil the Prevent duty, it is essential that staff are able to identify children who may be vulnerable to radicalisation, and know what to do when they are identified. Protecting children from the risk of radicalisation should be seen as part of schools’ and childcare providers’ wider safeguarding duties, and is similar in nature to protecting children from other harms (e.g. drugs, gangs, neglect, sexual exploitation), whether these come from within their family or are the product of outside influences’
Also a victim of their own abject stupidity.
It is not a defense for going a continent away to join a fecking death cult. Just like being 15 isn’t a defense to it either.
Yeah, ISIS has a reputation for killing everyone in their path. Someone shoulda told her
Quit comparing this to people who are groomed for sex. This isn’t someone who was only groomed for sex. Begum and those like her went and knowingly joined an internationally notorious terrorist group who was engaged in a genocide and decided to feck the soldiers committing said genocide.Would you say the say for the Rotherham girls who were sexually exploited?
I'll just post the figure in section 3 which presents the differences and similarities between CSE and radicalisation:
Getting back to the girls, pretty much the only bit of actual analysis of their case in the chapter is this: "The online recruiters are prolific and online grooming played a role with the Bethnal Green girls. However the group psychology of this close-knit friendship was also crucial."
I think we need a lot more information than is presented in this paper in order to determine the collection of factors that drove the three of them to leave.
Quit comparing this to people who are groomed for sex. This isn’t someone who was only groomed for sex. Begum and those like her went and knowingly joined an internationally notorious terrorist group who was engaged in a genocide and decided to feck the soldiers committing said genocide.
It is not the same.
Its the equivalent of making excuses for people leaving the United States to go feck Nazis in 1945 because they sent them love letters and pictures of Treblinka.
I know they had sex with them. They had kids with them. Making more little ISIS soldiers for them. But they did that already fully knowing that the people they were joining were genocidal terrorists. Hence the difference between someone duped by a sex groomer and these individuals. These individuals knew full well who they were running off to join.She kind of was groomed for sex. Again see other stories from other girls. The moment they arrive they are "married" off. Of the guy gets killed they marry another. Babies are born with regularity etc.
Yeah, that totally excuses the genocide that they knew about.The emphasis on meeting guys to marry and family life, in context of communities which may have pressures on arranged marriage, not helping matters, may seem as appealing to a 15 year old as free drink and presents would to any teenager.
I’ve no clue about that. My point was that it is a stupid thing to make excuses for.As for your Germany example. I'm sure there is a conversation with Rachel Johnson (Boris sister) about British women sent to Nazi Germany. I may have the wrong gist but she said something about someone saying Hitler went too far bit was a nice bloke
I know they had sex with them. They had kids with them. Making more little ISIS soldiers for them. But they did that already fully knowing that the people they were joining were genocidal terrorists. Hence the difference between someone duped by a sex groomer and these individuals. These individuals knew full well who they were running off to join.
Yeah, that totally excuses the genocide that they knew about.
I’ve no clue about that. My point was that it is a stupid thing to make excuses for.
I can make sense of it for you really quickly… she’s a shitty person who thought getting “doted on” by a genocide perpetrator sounded nice.You call it excuses I call it trying to make sense of something.
According to Shamima, she applied for a marriage as soon as she arrived in Syria. She also stated that one of the reasons she did not regret her decision to go to Syria was because “I married my husband. I wouldn't have found someone like him back in the UK.”
For his part, her husband stated:
“To be honest, when my friend came and said there was a girl who was interested in marriage, I wasn’t that interested because of her age, but I accepted the offer anyway.We sat down and she seemed in a good state of mind. It was her own choice; she was the one who asked to look for a partner for her.Then I was invited and, yeah, she was very young and it might have been better for her to wait a bit, but she didn’t – she chose to get married and I chose to marry her.”
He has also said that “There were some nice days with my wife and kids at home. Some beautiful memories.”
There's a book called Contemporary perspective on child psychology and education iirc. Has a chapter dedicated to sexual and extremist grooming. Used the 3 girls from bethnal green as a case study and Breck.
Interesting read even if you don't agree
Would you say the say for the Rotherham girls who were sexually exploited? The first ones were groomed without knowing what they were being lead into. The later ones knew what had happened/was happening to their mates but were still groomed.
Some left their parents house on an evening and spent 2/3 days away being used and abused.
Nothing is simple. Many factors to weigh. Easy to say it was abject stupidity. Home life, friends, vulnerability etc play a factor.
Trafficking is well known/spoken off. In countries which are targeted there are programmes/initiatives to warn going women about the dangers of falling victim to traffickers. Yet the numbers are not dwindling.
Refugees with families see the horrors of sea crossing etc but yet do it anyway. Brown people with babies and going kids.
Hard to take in but happens nonetheless.
This girl/want needs to be tried in a court of law here. Punished accordingly but able to tell her story. Maybe more to it than we know?
You sure about that? There are a couple of murderers from where I grew up and tbh everyone knew they were bad eggs. Their brains are just seemed to be wired differently. Same upbringing as their siblings but you couldn’t reason with those guys.No one is ‘born evil’.
From your first link
After arriving in Raqqa, she stayed at a house with other newly arrived brides-to-be, she told the Times.
"I applied to marry an English-speaking fighter between 20 and 25 years old," she said.
Ten days later she married a 27-year-old Dutch man who had converted to Islam.
That reads like these girls were groomed for the "fighters" and "marriage" was a key issue.
Sounds like CSE to me
IS is a cult.Up to a couple hundert women of from western nations joined ISIS during their insurgency. Its a small number, but Shamima Begum and her two friends weren't the only cases. Not all of these women were children/teenager either. Any statement that I have come across from her sounded like she was 100% convinced by ISIS ideology. The only thing she was probably naiv and mislead about is ISIS's chances to win and govern a territory. Moving illegally to a warzone to join an extremely brutal insurgency must be difficult especially for a teenager. This is not a snap decision without alternatives. It needs considerable dedication and conviction. I have no idea how anyone can get convinced by ISIS ideas, but a tiny percentage of people were. I am not sure that the process is all that different just because she was a 15 year old teenager.
On a slightly lighter note, I always have to think about Chapelle's "how old is 15 really?" bit. Its fitting.
Up to a couple hundert women of from western nations joined ISIS during their insurgency. Its a small number, but Shamima Begum and her two friends weren't the only cases. Not all of these women were children/teenager either. Any statement that I have come across from her sounded like she was 100% convinced by ISIS ideology. The only thing she was probably naiv and mislead about is ISIS's chances to win and govern a territory. Moving illegally to a warzone to join an extremely brutal insurgency must be difficult especially for a teenager. This is not a snap decision without alternatives. It needs considerable dedication and conviction. I have no idea how anyone can get convinced by ISIS ideas, but a tiny percentage of people were. I am not sure that the process is all that different just because she was a 15 year old teenager.
IS is a cult.
A person joining a cult is as brainwashed as can be. It genuinely takes years to 'unlearn' the shit that's embedded your brain.
And again, a 15 year old brain is a lot more immature than an 18 year old brain, despite being in adolescence.
I guess what you're saying here is that people who are groomed should know better.Yes there is.
If sexual grooming involved grooming a girl to commit crimes, then they would be responsible for crimes as well. Doesn't really happen.
Also, even in the case you were groomed by some 30 year old Pedo you can't just murder him and go "but I was groomed!".
People of all ages join cults. It’s not a young person thing.Plenty of people who weren't teenagers joined them in similar fashion. How do you explain that?
ISIS didn't try to hide their extreme level of violence against people of different faiths, aid workers and journalists. They were righteous about it and this uncompromising "consistency" was a selling point. Thats unusual even for extremists groups.15 year olds understood perfectly well what ISIS was doing. They were probably naive about what it means to live in a warzone, but there is little evidence that she or people like her didn't understand what kind of society ISIS wanted to create. Saying she was brainwashed doesn't really explain a lot.
Of course. But bear in mind the age of consent in Syria is 15, when one is deemed able to choose who and when to have sex with, and who to marry.IS is a cult.
A person joining a cult is as brainwashed as can be. It genuinely takes years to 'unlearn' the shit that's embedded your brain.
And again, a 15 year old brain is a lot more immature than an 18 year old brain, despite being in adolescence.
She is the exception. She's been stripped of her nationality and is being refused a fair trial.Literally every prison is filled with people who were brought into a life of crime by older people from a young age. How come this terrorist is the one we should make an exception for?
(And yes she went there to terrorize the population with the organization that she joined)
People of all ages join cults. It’s not a young person thing.
15 year olds don’t understand shit. That’s why they’re unable to do most things until they’re 18 year old. Look how many 15 year olds hurl the worst abuse online to celebrities. Do you think they understand the impact of their actions? That age is all about thinkibg you know everything (when you don’t) and thinking you know what’s best for you (when you don’t). It’s why they’re rebellious, impulsive, and genuinely don’t understand the consequences fully.
She, a gullible 15 year old, was definitely sold a story over some time, - whether that is brainwashing or not, I don’t know enough to say. But let’s stop this narrative that 15 year olds know what they’re doing and are fully cognisant of the consequences of their actions.
I’ll reiterate the point I’ve made from the start - she should be held accountable for her actions, and by that she should be given a trial in the UK. Rendering her stateless is an infringement of her human rights, and it’s a cowardly response from the Home Office.
I guess what you're saying here is that people who are groomed should know better.
Honestly, what your saying is so fecking despicable it makes me sick.
Fortunately most posters here agree that the UK should take her back and deal with her. Its worth mentioning that this is extremely difficult and courts are not properly equipped to handle cases like that. Still, there are no good alternatives. One of the most important goals should be to help the victims of ISIS to get some semblance of justice. When I am talking about victims I am not include Shamima Begum, but the people in Syria and Iraq who were killed, abused, enslaved and robbed by ISIS regardless of their religion, ethnicity, gender or any other characteristic. Foreigners joining ISIS are particularly galling, because they exacerbate a horrible situation for the population of these countries. Our opinions about the mental capacities of 15 year olds and her actions differ too much to find common ground.
Formal justice for ISIS perpetrators is going to be difficult, because individual accountability is more or less impossible. The British prosecution is hardly going to find witnesses in Syria, who could testify. One consequences of this is that her victims are even less seen and have no voice at at all to tell their story. They won't have their day in court even if the justice system prosecutes her. Considering how flawed the situation is, painting voluntary ISIS members as victims is imo an insult to the people who suffered under ISIS.
Hardly an exception in the wider world. If you go to some 3rd world country to further your criminal enterprise you can't expect a first world trial there either. Actually you need to have money to have a "fair trial" in most western countries too...She is the exception. She's been stripped of her nationality and is being refused a fair trial.
Hardly an exception in the wider world. If you go to some 3rd world country to further your criminal enterprise you can't expect a first world trial there either. Actually you need to have money to have a "fair trial" in most western countries too...
They don't do it as overtly but they do "loose documentation" and other shenaningans. It's the sort of thing that defines disfunctional countries.Which third world countries make people stateless?
So you're okay with Britain operating like a 3rd world country?They don't do it as overtly but they do "loose documentation" and other shenaningans. It's the sort of thing that defines disfunctional countries.
However that wasn't what I wrote. I wrote that you can't go to a third world country and expect to bring your judiciary with you.
They don't do it as overtly but they do "loose documentation" and other shenaningans. It's the sort of thing that defines disfunctional countries.
However that wasn't what I wrote. I wrote that you can't go to a third world country and expect to bring your judiciary with you.
Literally every prison is filled with people who were brought into a life of crime by older people from a young age. How come this terrorist is the one we should make an exception for?