Shamima Begum, IS teen wants to come back to the UK

Just to be clear…

You’re mad because I quoted the DSM-V definition of schizophrenia diagnosis and applied it to a certain individual, and since you’re mad about that implication, you’re comparing that to judging a 15 year old who watched videos on the internet and then went to marry and live with an ISIS member.

Not mad at all. Just curious why you wouldn't apply the same principles here. Choosing to dismiss it, or sonit appears.

The WHO and NSPCC also speak of mental health of teenagers and naivity to grooming for gangs, sexual exploitation and extremism.

Sorry if that seems like anger/being mad to you
 
I edited the above response

OK but that doesn't change the fact the section on the girls is very sparse. Also...

CSE being child sexual exploitation

The chapter makes a distinction between child sexual exploitation (CSE) and 'radicalisation', and discusses the girls in the context of the latter category rather than the former:

"It has also been recently argued that the way harm manifests in radicalisation can be quite different to CSE. Young people targeted do not have to be ‘vulnerable’ in the CSE sense (for example being in care) they can be well educated and well cared for as in the case of the three Bethnal Green girls."
 
Not mad at all. Just curious why you wouldn't apply the same principles here. Choosing to dismiss it, or sonit appears.

The WHO and NSPCC also speak of mental health of teenagers and naivity to grooming for gangs, sexual exploitation and extremism.

Sorry if that seems like anger/being mad to you
Choosing is the key word.

You don’t choose schizophrenia. You are a victim of it.

Begum made a choice to talk to ISIS online. She made a choice to watch the propaganda videos. She made a choice to leave her home and family. She made a choice to travel a continent away. She made a choice to get herself smuggled into Syria. She made a choice to marry and have kids with a soldier of a genocidal death cult.

At what point do you realize that if she’s a victim of anything, it is of her own abject stupidity?
 
OK but that doesn't change the fact the section on the girls is very sparse. Also...



The chapter makes a distinction between child sexual exploitation (CSE) and 'radicalisation', and discusses the girls in the context of the latter category rather than the former:

"It has also been recently argued that the way harm manifests in radicalisation can be quite different to CSE. Young people targeted do not have to be ‘vulnerable’ in the CSE sense (for example being in care) they can be well educated and well cared for as in the case of the three Bethnal Green girls."

It puts forward that as an argument however other quotes from the article show the similarities and how it's categorised as grooming.

In the UK Ofsted, the Office for Standards in Education, Children’s Services and Skills...require organisations to teach children and young people about being groomed: ‘…how to keep themselves safe from relevant risks such as abuse, sexual exploitation and extremism, including when using the internet and social media

‘In order for schools and childcare providers to fulfil the Prevent duty, it is essential that staff are able to identify children who may be vulnerable to radicalisation, and know what to do when they are identified. Protecting children from the risk of radicalisation should be seen as part of schools’ and childcare providers’ wider safeguarding duties, and is similar in nature to protecting children from other harms (e.g. drugs, gangs, neglect, sexual exploitation), whether these come from within their family or are the product of outside influences
 
Choosing is the key word.

You don’t choose schizophrenia. You are a victim of it.

Begum made a choice to talk to ISIS online. She made a choice to watch the propaganda videos. She made a choice to leave her home and family. She made a choice to travel a continent away. She made a choice to get herself smuggled into Syria. She made a choice to marry and have kids with a soldier of a genocidal death cult.

At what point do you realize that if she’s a victim of anything, it is of her own abject stupidity?

Shamima wasn't the first overall or from that school. Tareena Shakil for example has a similar story. Back in the UK these days.

Each woman, and many men, who have returned have similar stories to tell. Is it really out there to suggest there maybe an element of grooming, similar to CSE?

Was everything as much of a choice once groomed into going? Could she say different being where she was, surrounded by who she is?

For what it's worth I know her lawyer. Not because of her incidentally. I have known Tasnime for a number of years. He used to lecture/speak at conventions/meetings and I worked in the community safety field. His particular "expertise" was in changing of laws for terrorism. He was asked at a talk he did in Derby about the lack of shamima's remorse. He simply said that her life would be at risk if she vehemently opposed Isis. Maybe he was protecting his client maybe he was telling the truth, truth is I don't know but it made sense.
 
Shamima wasn't the first overall or from that school. Tareena Shakil for example has a similar story. Back in the UK these days.
Also a victim of their own abject stupidity.
Is it really out there to suggest there maybe an element of grooming, similar to CSE?
It is not a defense for going a continent away to join a fecking genocidal death cult. Just like being 15 isn’t a defense to it either.
He simply said that her life would be at risk if she vehemently opposed Isis
Yeah, ISIS has a reputation for killing everyone in their path. Someone shoulda told her :rolleyes:
 
It puts forward that as an argument however other quotes from the article show the similarities and how it's categorised as grooming.

In the UK Ofsted, the Office for Standards in Education, Children’s Services and Skills...require organisations to teach children and young people about being groomed: ‘…how to keep themselves safe from relevant risks such as abuse, sexual exploitation and extremism, including when using the internet and social media

‘In order for schools and childcare providers to fulfil the Prevent duty, it is essential that staff are able to identify children who may be vulnerable to radicalisation, and know what to do when they are identified. Protecting children from the risk of radicalisation should be seen as part of schools’ and childcare providers’ wider safeguarding duties, and is similar in nature to protecting children from other harms (e.g. drugs, gangs, neglect, sexual exploitation), whether these come from within their family or are the product of outside influences

I'll just post the figure in section 3 which presents the differences and similarities between CSE and radicalisation:

F1.png

Getting back to the girls, pretty much the only bit of actual analysis of their case in the chapter is this: "The online recruiters are prolific and online grooming played a role with the Bethnal Green girls. However the group psychology of this close-knit friendship was also crucial."

I think we need a lot more information than is presented in this paper in order to determine the collection of factors that drove the three of them to leave.
 
Also a victim of their own abject stupidity.

It is not a defense for going a continent away to join a fecking death cult. Just like being 15 isn’t a defense to it either.

Yeah, ISIS has a reputation for killing everyone in their path. Someone shoulda told her :rolleyes:

Would you say the say for the Rotherham girls who were sexually exploited? The first ones were groomed without knowing what they were being lead into. The later ones knew what had happened/was happening to their mates but were still groomed.

Some left their parents house on an evening and spent 2/3 days away being used and abused.

Nothing is simple. Many factors to weigh. Easy to say it was abject stupidity. Home life, friends, vulnerability etc play a factor.

Trafficking is well known/spoken off. In countries which are targeted there are programmes/initiatives to warn going women about the dangers of falling victim to traffickers. Yet the numbers are not dwindling.

Refugees with families see the horrors of sea crossing etc but yet do it anyway. Brown people with babies and going kids.

Hard to take in but happens nonetheless.

This girl/want needs to be tried in a court of law here. Punished accordingly but able to tell her story. Maybe more to it than we know?
 
Would you say the say for the Rotherham girls who were sexually exploited?
Quit comparing this to people who are groomed for sex. This isn’t someone who was only groomed for sex. Begum and those like her went and knowingly joined an internationally notorious terrorist group who was engaged in a genocide and decided to feck the soldiers committing said genocide.

It is not the same.

Its the equivalent of making excuses for people leaving the United States to go feck Nazis in 1945 because they sent them love letters and pictures of Treblinka.
 
I'll just post the figure in section 3 which presents the differences and similarities between CSE and radicalisation:

F1.png

Getting back to the girls, pretty much the only bit of actual analysis of their case in the chapter is this: "The online recruiters are prolific and online grooming played a role with the Bethnal Green girls. However the group psychology of this close-knit friendship was also crucial."

I think we need a lot more information than is presented in this paper in order to determine the collection of factors that drove the three of them to leave.

Lot of similarities in the grooming factors on that table. The purpose of the table is to show that grooming techniques can occur simultaneously rather than the linear process argument

I agree with your last paragraph. One thing that is available is that the school was itself a target. Parents hasn't been informed about another girl who had left and told to be vigilant.

We currently have a school in our locality that was under scrutiny for sexual grooming. Social services and police etc has a close eye on it for almost 3 years. Some of the groomers were not locals but focussed on this school.

It's a high school/academy and it's not clear why this one. There are other schools within a certain radius but no issues.
 
Quit comparing this to people who are groomed for sex. This isn’t someone who was only groomed for sex. Begum and those like her went and knowingly joined an internationally notorious terrorist group who was engaged in a genocide and decided to feck the soldiers committing said genocide.

It is not the same.

Its the equivalent of making excuses for people leaving the United States to go feck Nazis in 1945 because they sent them love letters and pictures of Treblinka.

She kind of was groomed for sex. Again see other stories from other girls. The moment they arrive they are "married" off. Of the guy gets killed they marry another. Babies are born with regularity etc.

The emphasis on meeting guys to marry and family life, in context of communities which may have pressures on arranged marriage, not helping matters, may seem as appealing to a 15 year old as free drink and presents would to any teenager.

As for your Germany example. I'm sure there is a conversation with Rachel Johnson (Boris sister) about British women sent to Nazi Germany. I may have the wrong gist but she said something about someone saying Hitler went too far bit was a nice bloke
 
She kind of was groomed for sex. Again see other stories from other girls. The moment they arrive they are "married" off. Of the guy gets killed they marry another. Babies are born with regularity etc.
I know they had sex with them. They had kids with them. Making more little ISIS soldiers for them. But they did that already fully knowing that the people they were joining were genocidal terrorists. Hence the difference between someone duped by a sex groomer and these individuals. These individuals knew full well who they were running off to join.
The emphasis on meeting guys to marry and family life, in context of communities which may have pressures on arranged marriage, not helping matters, may seem as appealing to a 15 year old as free drink and presents would to any teenager.
Yeah, that totally excuses the genocide that they knew about.
As for your Germany example. I'm sure there is a conversation with Rachel Johnson (Boris sister) about British women sent to Nazi Germany. I may have the wrong gist but she said something about someone saying Hitler went too far bit was a nice bloke
I’ve no clue about that. My point was that it is a stupid thing to make excuses for.
 
I know they had sex with them. They had kids with them. Making more little ISIS soldiers for them. But they did that already fully knowing that the people they were joining were genocidal terrorists. Hence the difference between someone duped by a sex groomer and these individuals. These individuals knew full well who they were running off to join.

Yeah, that totally excuses the genocide that they knew about.

I’ve no clue about that. My point was that it is a stupid thing to make excuses for.


You call it excuses I call it trying to make sense of something. For me it's akin to women marrying a lifer to give a different example.


You may wish to ignore the similarities but there are some nonetheless. Targeting of particular places and places. Targeting of certain age groups. I gave the example of Rotherham victims who had seen what their friends had endured but undergoing the same atrocities. Similarly trafficking or channel crossings on dinghies etc. They also "fully knew" the consequences.

Do we say that totally excuses the atrocities they knew about?

If you know they had sex with them and that was their primary role how is it not CSE?
 
You call it excuses I call it trying to make sense of something.
I can make sense of it for you really quickly… she’s a shitty person who thought getting “doted on” by a genocide perpetrator sounded nice.

As to the question about CSE, I believe that @2cents has already answered that.
 
According to Shamima, she applied for a marriage as soon as she arrived in Syria. She also stated that one of the reasons she did not regret her decision to go to Syria was because “I married my husband. I wouldn't have found someone like him back in the UK.”

For his part, her husband stated:
“To be honest, when my friend came and said there was a girl who was interested in marriage, I wasn’t that interested because of her age, but I accepted the offer anyway.​
We sat down and she seemed in a good state of mind. It was her own choice; she was the one who asked to look for a partner for her.​
Then I was invited and, yeah, she was very young and it might have been better for her to wait a bit, but she didn’t – she chose to get married and I chose to marry her.”​

He has also said that “There were some nice days with my wife and kids at home. Some beautiful memories.”
 
She was clearly groomed. Normal 15 year old girls do not aspire to moving to Syria and joining a fecking terrorist organisation. She was specifically targeted, and taken advantage of. Clearly. In that sense, yes, she is a victim. She’s a victim just like most criminals are in a sense a victim, a victim to their bad dna, to their shit upbringing, to poverty, to a host of scenarios which allow people to be groomed or radicalised. No one is ‘born evil’.

That doesn’t mean she shouldn’t be punished though. She should. But she should be tried in the country she was born in, not left to rot as another country’s problem and where she is never going to get a fair trial.
 
According to Shamima, she applied for a marriage as soon as she arrived in Syria. She also stated that one of the reasons she did not regret her decision to go to Syria was because “I married my husband. I wouldn't have found someone like him back in the UK.”

For his part, her husband stated:
“To be honest, when my friend came and said there was a girl who was interested in marriage, I wasn’t that interested because of her age, but I accepted the offer anyway.​
We sat down and she seemed in a good state of mind. It was her own choice; she was the one who asked to look for a partner for her.​
Then I was invited and, yeah, she was very young and it might have been better for her to wait a bit, but she didn’t – she chose to get married and I chose to marry her.”​

He has also said that “There were some nice days with my wife and kids at home. Some beautiful memories.”


From your first link

After arriving in Raqqa, she stayed at a house with other newly arrived brides-to-be, she told the Times.
"I applied to marry an English-speaking fighter between 20 and 25 years old," she said.
Ten days later she married a 27-year-old Dutch man who had converted to Islam.


That reads like these girls were groomed for the "fighters" and "marriage" was a key issue.

Sounds like CSE to me
 
There's a book called Contemporary perspective on child psychology and education iirc. Has a chapter dedicated to sexual and extremist grooming. Used the 3 girls from bethnal green as a case study and Breck.

Interesting read even if you don't agree

So it has a chapter about 3 girls he or she hasn't interviewed and doesn't have any first hand knowledge of. Sounds like a great psychological analysis
 
Would you say the say for the Rotherham girls who were sexually exploited? The first ones were groomed without knowing what they were being lead into. The later ones knew what had happened/was happening to their mates but were still groomed.

Some left their parents house on an evening and spent 2/3 days away being used and abused.

Nothing is simple. Many factors to weigh. Easy to say it was abject stupidity. Home life, friends, vulnerability etc play a factor.

Trafficking is well known/spoken off. In countries which are targeted there are programmes/initiatives to warn going women about the dangers of falling victim to traffickers. Yet the numbers are not dwindling.

Refugees with families see the horrors of sea crossing etc but yet do it anyway. Brown people with babies and going kids.

Hard to take in but happens nonetheless.

This girl/want needs to be tried in a court of law here. Punished accordingly but able to tell her story. Maybe more to it than we know?

What a disgusting comparison. Comparing girls who were genuinely groomed, raped, manipulated and abused to girls who simply wanted to be part of an Islamic master race and massacre anyone who didn't submit to their death cult. They wanted murderous husbands and got them. That was their dream, there was no in person manipulation.
 
No one is ‘born evil’.
You sure about that? There are a couple of murderers from where I grew up and tbh everyone knew they were bad eggs. Their brains are just seemed to be wired differently. Same upbringing as their siblings but you couldn’t reason with those guys.
 
From your first link

After arriving in Raqqa, she stayed at a house with other newly arrived brides-to-be, she told the Times.
"I applied to marry an English-speaking fighter between 20 and 25 years old," she said.
Ten days later she married a 27-year-old Dutch man who had converted to Islam.


That reads like these girls were groomed for the "fighters" and "marriage" was a key issue.

Sounds like CSE to me

No it doesn't sound like CSE because there was zero manipulation and she was asking for the people there to find her a partner. It sounds like she literally went there looking for a heroic Jihadi John that she couldn't find in England.
 
Up to a couple hundert women of from western nations joined ISIS during their insurgency. Its a small number, but Shamima Begum and her two friends weren't the only cases. Not all of these women were children/teenager either. Any statement that I have come across from her sounded like she was 100% convinced by ISIS ideology. The only thing she was probably naiv and mislead about is ISIS's chances to win and govern a territory. Moving illegally to a warzone to join an extremely brutal insurgency must be difficult especially for a teenager. This is not a snap decision without alternatives. It needs considerable dedication and conviction. I have no idea how anyone can get convinced by ISIS ideas, but a tiny percentage of people were. I am not sure that the process is all that different just because she was a 15 year old teenager.

On a slightly lighter note, I always have to think about Chapelle's "how old is 15 really?" bit. Its fitting.
 
Up to a couple hundert women of from western nations joined ISIS during their insurgency. Its a small number, but Shamima Begum and her two friends weren't the only cases. Not all of these women were children/teenager either. Any statement that I have come across from her sounded like she was 100% convinced by ISIS ideology. The only thing she was probably naiv and mislead about is ISIS's chances to win and govern a territory. Moving illegally to a warzone to join an extremely brutal insurgency must be difficult especially for a teenager. This is not a snap decision without alternatives. It needs considerable dedication and conviction. I have no idea how anyone can get convinced by ISIS ideas, but a tiny percentage of people were. I am not sure that the process is all that different just because she was a 15 year old teenager.

On a slightly lighter note, I always have to think about Chapelle's "how old is 15 really?" bit. Its fitting.
IS is a cult.

A person joining a cult is as brainwashed as can be. It genuinely takes years to 'unlearn' the shit that's embedded your brain.

And again, a 15 year old brain is a lot more immature than an 18 year old brain, despite being in adolescence.
 
Up to a couple hundert women of from western nations joined ISIS during their insurgency. Its a small number, but Shamima Begum and her two friends weren't the only cases. Not all of these women were children/teenager either. Any statement that I have come across from her sounded like she was 100% convinced by ISIS ideology. The only thing she was probably naiv and mislead about is ISIS's chances to win and govern a territory. Moving illegally to a warzone to join an extremely brutal insurgency must be difficult especially for a teenager. This is not a snap decision without alternatives. It needs considerable dedication and conviction. I have no idea how anyone can get convinced by ISIS ideas, but a tiny percentage of people were. I am not sure that the process is all that different just because she was a 15 year old teenager.

According to this updated study (original here), over 50,000 international recruits are recorded as having made the trip, including almost 7,000 women (with over 1,000 of these from Western Europe and other Western states). The study acknowledges that these are likely significant under-counts.
 
IS is a cult.

A person joining a cult is as brainwashed as can be. It genuinely takes years to 'unlearn' the shit that's embedded your brain.

And again, a 15 year old brain is a lot more immature than an 18 year old brain, despite being in adolescence.

Plenty of people who weren't teenagers joined them in similar fashion. How do you explain that?

ISIS didn't try to hide their extreme level of violence against people of different faiths, aid workers and journalists. They were righteous about it and this uncompromising "consistency" was a selling point. Thats unusual even for extremists groups.15 year olds understood perfectly well what ISIS was doing. They were probably naive about what it means to live in a warzone, but there is little evidence that she or people like her didn't understand what kind of society ISIS wanted to create. Saying she was brainwashed doesn't really explain a lot.
 
According to this updated study (original here), over 50,000 international recruits are recorded as having made the trip, including almost 7,000 women (with over 1,000 of these from Western Europe and other Western states). The study acknowledges that these are likely significant under-counts.

I struggle a bit with understanding why the main focus is how culpable or of sound mind she was. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that it's uninteresting, and there's certainly parallells to how e.g. white supremacists online are targeting impressionable and often socially isolated young boys, but surely the main thing here is what responsibility a state has for its citizens.

It is, or at least was, pretty widely considered important rights both not to be made stateless and to get a fair trial, yet that's seemingly thrown out of the window. The trial bit is a bit murky because she's not un UK soil and it can be debated how much responsibility the UK has in actively bringing her home, but to deny her entry if she gets her on her own and even remove her citizenship when it's the only one she has is ... not unprecedented on a global scale but at minimum a serious breach of internationally accepted norms. If we only extend rights to citizens if we think they've behaved acceptably then they're not rights at all.

This isn't really directed at you, just a general observation.
 
Yes there is.

If sexual grooming involved grooming a girl to commit crimes, then they would be responsible for crimes as well. Doesn't really happen.

Also, even in the case you were groomed by some 30 year old Pedo you can't just murder him and go "but I was groomed!".
I guess what you're saying here is that people who are groomed should know better.

Honestly, what your saying is so fecking despicable it makes me sick.
 
Plenty of people who weren't teenagers joined them in similar fashion. How do you explain that?

ISIS didn't try to hide their extreme level of violence against people of different faiths, aid workers and journalists. They were righteous about it and this uncompromising "consistency" was a selling point. Thats unusual even for extremists groups.15 year olds understood perfectly well what ISIS was doing. They were probably naive about what it means to live in a warzone, but there is little evidence that she or people like her didn't understand what kind of society ISIS wanted to create. Saying she was brainwashed doesn't really explain a lot.
People of all ages join cults. It’s not a young person thing.

15 year olds don’t understand shit. That’s why they’re unable to do most things until they’re 18 year old. Look how many 15 year olds hurl the worst abuse online to celebrities. Do you think they understand the impact of their actions? That age is all about thinking you know everything (when you don’t) and thinking you know what’s best for you (when you don’t). It’s why they’re rebellious, impulsive, and genuinely don’t understand the consequences fully.

She, a gullible 15 year old, was definitely sold a story over some time, - whether that is brainwashing or not, I don’t know enough to say. But let’s stop this narrative that 15 year olds know what they’re doing and are fully cognisant of the consequences of their actions.

I’ll reiterate the point I’ve made from the start - she should be held accountable for her actions, and by that she should be given a trial in the UK. Rendering her stateless is an infringement of her human rights, and it’s a cowardly response from the Home Office.
 
Last edited:
Literally every prison is filled with people who were brought into a life of crime by older people from a young age. How come this terrorist is the one we should make an exception for?

(And yes she went there to terrorize the population with the organization that she joined)
 
IS is a cult.

A person joining a cult is as brainwashed as can be. It genuinely takes years to 'unlearn' the shit that's embedded your brain.

And again, a 15 year old brain is a lot more immature than an 18 year old brain, despite being in adolescence.
Of course. But bear in mind the age of consent in Syria is 15, when one is deemed able to choose who and when to have sex with, and who to marry.

Might not be 'nice' to those of other cultures, but in terms of sex she was not considered a child in Syria, nor is any other girl of that age now.
 
Literally every prison is filled with people who were brought into a life of crime by older people from a young age. How come this terrorist is the one we should make an exception for?

(And yes she went there to terrorize the population with the organization that she joined)
She is the exception. She's been stripped of her nationality and is being refused a fair trial.
 
People of all ages join cults. It’s not a young person thing.

15 year olds don’t understand shit. That’s why they’re unable to do most things until they’re 18 year old. Look how many 15 year olds hurl the worst abuse online to celebrities. Do you think they understand the impact of their actions? That age is all about thinkibg you know everything (when you don’t) and thinking you know what’s best for you (when you don’t). It’s why they’re rebellious, impulsive, and genuinely don’t understand the consequences fully.

She, a gullible 15 year old, was definitely sold a story over some time, - whether that is brainwashing or not, I don’t know enough to say. But let’s stop this narrative that 15 year olds know what they’re doing and are fully cognisant of the consequences of their actions.

I’ll reiterate the point I’ve made from the start - she should be held accountable for her actions, and by that she should be given a trial in the UK. Rendering her stateless is an infringement of her human rights, and it’s a cowardly response from the Home Office.

Fortunately most posters here agree that the UK should take her back and deal with her. Its worth mentioning that this is extremely difficult and courts are not properly equipped to handle cases like that. Still, there are no good alternatives. One of the most important goals should be to help the victims of ISIS to get some semblance of justice. When I am talking about victims I am not including Shamima Begum, but the people in Syria and Iraq who were killed, abused, enslaved and robbed by ISIS regardless of their religion, ethnicity, gender or any other characteristic. Foreigners joining ISIS are particularly galling, because they exacerbate a horrible situation for the population of these countries. Our opinions about the mental capacities of 15 year olds and her actions differ too much to find common ground.

Formal justice for ISIS perpetrators is going to be difficult, because individual accountability is more or less impossible. The British prosecution is hardly going to find witnesses in Syria, who could testify. One consequences of this is that her victims are even less seen and have no voice at at all to tell their story. They won't have their day in court even if the justice system prosecutes her. Considering how flawed the situation is, painting voluntary ISIS members as victims is imo an insult to the people who suffered under ISIS.
 
Last edited:
I guess what you're saying here is that people who are groomed should know better.

Honestly, what your saying is so fecking despicable it makes me sick.

You either know that's not what I said or that's all you could understand from that post which is sad either way.

What makes me even sadder is the amount of people from the Muslim community in the UK that are so tolerant and "naive" about this whole Shamima Begum. It doesn't surprise me. UK has some some of the most extremist mindset Muslims I've met. Total contrast from North American Muslim immigrants.

This girl was getting off to beheading videos, unapologetic about the Manchester bombings and rape of yazidi women. You don't just stumble into a terrorist org like that.

She was not kidnapped. She went voluntary. Your comparisons of grooming for sex holds no value here
 
Fortunately most posters here agree that the UK should take her back and deal with her. Its worth mentioning that this is extremely difficult and courts are not properly equipped to handle cases like that. Still, there are no good alternatives. One of the most important goals should be to help the victims of ISIS to get some semblance of justice. When I am talking about victims I am not include Shamima Begum, but the people in Syria and Iraq who were killed, abused, enslaved and robbed by ISIS regardless of their religion, ethnicity, gender or any other characteristic. Foreigners joining ISIS are particularly galling, because they exacerbate a horrible situation for the population of these countries. Our opinions about the mental capacities of 15 year olds and her actions differ too much to find common ground.

Formal justice for ISIS perpetrators is going to be difficult, because individual accountability is more or less impossible. The British prosecution is hardly going to find witnesses in Syria, who could testify. One consequences of this is that her victims are even less seen and have no voice at at all to tell their story. They won't have their day in court even if the justice system prosecutes her. Considering how flawed the situation is, painting voluntary ISIS members as victims is imo an insult to the people who suffered under ISIS.

The UK has stricter rules than most other nations on punishing viewpoints, so she'll be pretty likely to get judicial punishent even if no victims can be located (if they exist). Alex Davies got sentenced to 8.5 years for membership in National Action, and is I believe just one out of about 20 convicted people from that single group. While they as a group actually did some stuff, like stockpiling weapons and going on marches that turned violent, I'm pretty certain most of them were convicted for membership rather than any specific action or incident.
 
She is the exception. She's been stripped of her nationality and is being refused a fair trial.
Hardly an exception in the wider world. If you go to some 3rd world country to further your criminal enterprise you can't expect a first world trial there either. Actually you need to have money to have a "fair trial" in most western countries too...
 
Hardly an exception in the wider world. If you go to some 3rd world country to further your criminal enterprise you can't expect a first world trial there either. Actually you need to have money to have a "fair trial" in most western countries too...

Which third world countries make people stateless?
 
Which third world countries make people stateless?
They don't do it as overtly but they do "loose documentation" and other shenaningans. It's the sort of thing that defines disfunctional countries.


However that wasn't what I wrote. I wrote that you can't go to a third world country and expect to bring your judiciary with you.
 
They don't do it as overtly but they do "loose documentation" and other shenaningans. It's the sort of thing that defines disfunctional countries.


However that wasn't what I wrote. I wrote that you can't go to a third world country and expect to bring your judiciary with you.
So you're okay with Britain operating like a 3rd world country?

Also, this is not loose documentation, this is actively stripping her of her citizenship, pretty big difference.
 
They don't do it as overtly but they do "loose documentation" and other shenaningans. It's the sort of thing that defines disfunctional countries.


However that wasn't what I wrote. I wrote that you can't go to a third world country and expect to bring your judiciary with you.

It's not what you wrote, but it's what you responded to. She's not just being denied a fair trial, she's being stripped of her nationality. And the criticism isn't that the UK isn't bringing its judiciary to Syria, or even that the UK isn't actively trying to bring her back to face its judiciary there, but that the UK is actively keeping her out. And making her stateless. This is what the whole case is about, so I'm very confused about why you've started comparing the UK to third world countries. And even if we overlook all this, then what you said was

Literally every prison is filled with people who were brought into a life of crime by older people from a young age. How come this terrorist is the one we should make an exception for?

Do you mean to say that "we" referred to Syria and Syrian prisons rather than the UK and UK prisons?

Syria is also not a third world country, unless you're using it in the original NATO vs Warsaw pact sense in which case maybe but that then doesn't say much. That's another matter, though.