His hold up play was quite good in his first season when he played as a #9 until we found Rashford, Neville did an entire MNF analysis on that. Its moot though as Jose will never play him as a striker and he'll never rest Lukaku for any game worth a lick.
9
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 45
- Goals
- 11
- Assists
- 11
- Yellow cards
- 1
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) was joined by comedian Ali Woods to look back at the best and worst moments of a rollercoaster season with the annual United Hour Awards.
Has Ten Hag been sacked yet? We're not sure and we hope not, but it's looking more likely as the days pass.
Who should replace him and why is it taking so long to make a decision?
- Status
Not sure I believe that either, but I've mentioned just above that I am getting more concerned that he is going to be a casualty of the summer clear-out. I seriously hope not, to much potential there to just throw away.
Of course it’s not going to bankrupt the club and I never suggested that this was the case but if he is going to be sold because the manager doesn’t fancy him or he is not going to sign the contract then why pay the additional £8m. That just doesn’t make any business sense and after all we do operate as a business. I don’t understand why this is so difficult for you to understand.
Can't really see him getting sold at all and I don't think Mourinho's last rant meant he's going to sell anyone, bar Shaw.
I hope not and you would hope Mourinho would want to keep him but you never know with Mourinho, he’s sold good players before who have gone on to excel under different management and it hasn’t always been rosy relationship between the two. It may not be down to the club. It could be that If there are indications that Martial is looking at different options then club may be forced to sell if he is coming to the end of his contract.
Last edited by a moderator:
We'll see but I'm pretty confident everyone in the club wants him to stay, including Mourinho and the board. If Mourinho's last rant was including Martial he would have subbed him for Rashford but he kept him on the pitch unlike Shaw.
Martial has played a lot of games for a player that the manager apparently hates.
If you're not in Mourinho's plans you will get frozen out and get a game every few months. Darmian and Blind are examples, who are probably going to be sold.
If you're not in Mourinho's plans you will get frozen out and get a game every few months. Darmian and Blind are examples, who are probably going to be sold.
Lukaku has 25 goals and 8 assists in 44 apps this season.
I also find the negative remarks regarding Mourinho's tenure at Real a little odd. Having seen Barcelona lift the league three times on the trot, Mourinho led Real Madrid to a title where they set the record for the most numbers of goals scored in a season (121), most wins (32) and most points (100). This ultimately led to Pep leaving Barcelona and taking a (short) break from football.
It may not have ended well, but truth is, Mourinho did his job. He won the league and drove Pep out of town.
Last edited:
This impression that Mourinho 'stunts' attacking players is devoid of evidence. The reality is that Mourinho makes attackers do things that they don't want to do that improves the team and so gives them more opportunities.
Ozil is the ultimate luxury attacking player; yet he was the best playmaker in the world under Mourinho, and a bottler under the more 'attacking' coach Wenger. Fabregas is similar, he won his first premiere league title as a mainstay in a Mourinho team.
People talk about De Bruyne and Salah, just because they are following a meme. Both of these players would not get into the Chelsea team based on merit when they left. They had to get games under their belt and refine their game to be ready for a top club. Mourinho is a very adaptable manager, he will tailor the way his teams play if you are good enough. He is not like a Guardiola or LVG that are very obsessive in the way they play.
And the fact that he is not getting the best out of Sanchez is not enough evidence?
Attacking wise, the guy was carrying his former club. All of a sudden, he is not performing under Mou.
People have to start calling a spade a spade.
Last edited by a moderator:
I have no doubt he's not going anywhere. We are in no position to be selling attackers and I'm pretty sure he'll sign a new contract.
He's my favourite player but I'm begining to think he's not going to achieve what I hope he will under these circumstances.
He plays regularly and in important games, which says to me that the manager trusts him to a degree.
I don't get the idea that he's not Mourinho's cup of tea. He has praised him many times this season and has started him in some huge games.
What has my bother is that, the flaws in his game or perceived flaws aren't being addressed.
I don't buy the argument that he doesn't work hard. He actually does and imo he's better at tracking his man than Rashford. That's why he's played in more big games imo.
His biggest problem is that he's not direct enough...nowhere near. And it doesn't look like it's being addressed.
This is Mourinho we are talking about, if it was such a problem, week see him.
Is Mourinho intentional telling him to hold his position?
For someone so quick and good with his feet, I want him running at players every fecking time.
He's my favourite player but I'm begining to think he's not going to achieve what I hope he will under these circumstances.
He plays regularly and in important games, which says to me that the manager trusts him to a degree.
I don't get the idea that he's not Mourinho's cup of tea. He has praised him many times this season and has started him in some huge games.
What has my bother is that, the flaws in his game or perceived flaws aren't being addressed.
I don't buy the argument that he doesn't work hard. He actually does and imo he's better at tracking his man than Rashford. That's why he's played in more big games imo.
His biggest problem is that he's not direct enough...nowhere near. And it doesn't look like it's being addressed.
This is Mourinho we are talking about, if it was such a problem, week see him.
Is Mourinho intentional telling him to hold his position?
For someone so quick and good with his feet, I want him running at players every fecking time.
What is it that you think talent is? Cristiano wasn't more talented than Martial, who blew his stats away in his first season at Manchester United, has a better touch and dribbling (real dribbling, not YT showpony highlights that accomplish very little), and is more ruthless in goal-scoring position. Cristiano is not even as talented as Rooney was. The guy worked his ass off and is one of the most driven players of all-time. Talent is a lazy excuse and the language of losers IMO. Hard work is all that pays off, and Martial is not known to be the hardest-working guy. You can't change a zebra into a work-horse, and I don't think Mourinho is the right coach to get the most out of a guy like Martial who can be great in his own right, but needs to be played in the proper set up. He's not the kind of player (at least not now) who can shine in any set-up, and he may never be.
What like the summer of 95 when Fergie shocked us all by getting rid Ince, Hughes and Kanchelskis? I'd say that lot mostly gave us 100 per cent. The difference was the manager knew what was coming down the line with Scholes, Neville, Beckham etc so he felt they were expendable.
Does this manager have a similar long-term strategy? I'm not sure. He's probably got his eyes on some big-name signings, which is admirable, but it still doesn't build chemistry on the pitch, a certain style, a certain way of playing. We simply don't have it.
But as I've said many times before he deserves another season - after a decent league campaign - so that we can see if his stealth and tempo tactics find the right personnel to deliver them.
The fact is Alexis was not very good this season for Arsenal to begin with. Ozil was the inspiration of the Arsenal best form, not Alexis. Also he failed to carry Chile to qualify for WC. The hope that he would have gotten over that when he joins us, but seemed like it will take time to adapt and get out of bad form.
So calling a spade a spade, then there you are.
Nothing to do with league goals. The clause was 25 goals in first team competitive matches which he achieved at the end of last season. He's on 36 goals for us at the moment. Second clause is for 25 caps for France - he's on 17 at the moment so he could achieve that if he plays in both friendly matches and appears prominently for France in the World Cup.
Rubbish. I find it ridiculous this re-writing of history to make Cristiano into purely a machine with relatively little talent when compared to his peers. I see it quite often and it's such a disservice to him.
Ronaldo always had far more natural talent than the likes of Rooney and Martial. Pretty much right from his start with us he was being talked about as potentially the best player in the world. It wasn't a fluke that Best said (before Ronaldo really took off) that it was the first time the comparison to someone was a compliment to Best. The problem was that he didn't know how to use his talent effectively for his first two or three seasons, and for at least the first two and a bit seasons there was little sign of improvement in that regard. As such he was starting to get written off to some extent, but for the exact opposite reason as what you and others make out. Nobody at that time had question marks over his talent, but it appeared he didn't have the mentality (or perhaps football intelligence would be a better way of putting it) to make the most of it.
Then in the latter parts of his third season with us it started to click, and for the next seven or so seasons he married that incredible talent with the unbelievable drive to put himself into an echelon that in any other era would have made him the undisputed best player in the world. Sure he may not have had the pure talent of Messi, but there's very few other players over that timeframe (if any) that had more talent than him. You don't spend over a decade going blow-for-blow with somebody who will probably go down as the greatest player of all time purely on work-rate and drive.
I'm a Martial fan and if he does reach his potential I expect somebody at a level of Hazard/Ribery/Robben. That's still good enough to potentially be the best player in the league. Maybe, just maybe, he could even reach the next level above that. But he's not going to get to Ronaldo level as he doesn't have the mentality or the talent.
I would take 125 Million right away for Him.
and I'd take 90M for Shaw. Now, realistically we'd get 60M for Martial.
You're saying this as if I wasn't around when he first came on the scene... Best in the world? Cristiano was seen as a tall, lanky, technical player who had a very low football IQ and tended to overdribble. He was NOT considered more talented than Rooney, and he was nowhere near considered being the best player in the world from the start with you, not even remotely close. Best enjoyed Cristiano's showboating, which he did plenty of, and Best has said a lot of things over the years but that's neither here nor there.
Also, I'm not saying he had little talent, you just chose to interpret it that way. You're the one re-writing history thinking Cristiano was seen as anything other than a talented young player with a lot to learn but not many saw him becoming even half the player he ended up becoming, and anybody who says otherwise based their opinion on pure fandom and no actual evidence until his last couple of seasons at the club.
Excellent post. If I had to make a comparison than Ronaldo was more of a M'bappe/Neymar in terms of talent rather than a Martial. That's not disrespect to Martial, but you always felt that he can be as good as a top5 player in the world. With Martial, I think he'll be world class but top5? I don't think so.
What's with some members quoting prices for Martial? I am not a fanboy, but I recognize he is a talent for all his faults and we will regret his sale. Martial should not be sold under any circumstances.
You yourself here say it was his mental game and decision making which were his weaknesses. Both of us agree in that regard. I'm disregarding that when talking about his pure talent, whereas you seem to be including that as part of the full package. To me, the mental side of the game doesn't come into it when we are talking pure natural talent. Talent sets the bar as to how good they could be if things go right. The mental side of things is then the deciding factor (or the biggest factor anyway) to how close the player gets to reaching that bar.
It also has to be noted that Martial's biggest weakness is also his mental game and decision making, albeit in completely different ways. His final product once actually in good position is far better than Ronaldo's was. However he doesn't have anywhere near the drive or will to win that Ronaldo always had even at his most frustrating points. Ronaldo's decision making could be utter trash at times in those early years, but his willingness to pick himself and keep trying is something that nobody could dispute. Whereas Martial...unfortunately it's relatively easy to take him out of the game if things don't go his way. Although once again I'm not including that when talking about his talent.
Important to note that I said 'relatively little talent when compared to his peers'. By peers I mean the other players amongst the best in the world, which is exactly what you are doing by saying he had less talent than Rooney and Martial. Obviously you don't think he had little talent compared to the average player.
Nobody saw him becoming the type of player that he ultimately did become. Many saw that he had the potential to reach 'best in the world level', although it was expected to be as the kind of player that he was in 06/07 - a devastating winger who scored a good amount of goals. As a couple of seasons went by and he didn't make the kind of improvements that were expected, many 'lost faith' in him and thought he'd piss his talent away with poor decision making. And yes, at that time Rooney was believed to be the better player both currently and most likely for the rest of their careers. Then in 06/07 it all came together and Ronaldo became the player we knew he had the potential to be (which was the best in the world). Then of course he surprised us all in the seasons following that and reached a level that nobody expected, slowly changing his playstyle as he did to become arguably the greatest goalscorer of all time. Certainly nobody expected that.
Ultimately, as KM said above, most in the early days considered Ronaldo to be a Neymar level talent. That is a good comparison. He ended up going even further than that which is what surprised people, and is part of the under-rating his talent which I was talking about. Saying that he wasn't as talented as the other players who are amongst the greatest of all time, and that it was his mentality and drive which allowed him to do so? Yeah, that's fair enough. Saying that he wasn't as talented as Rooney or Martial? Nah, that's just not true. I guess I can understand you saying Rooney as it was somewhat close, but Martial?
Last edited:
I think, in the end, we more or less agree on a lot more things than would appear. I do think Rooney had more talent as he was capable of doing everything. They both pretty much came out to the public eye on the same tournament, Euro 2004, a tournament that Rooney exploded in while Cristiano had a decent but nowhere near as close of a showing as Rooney, same when Rooney came into the team at 18 years old. As I mentioned originally, I'm not a huge fan of the word talent but when I bring up Martial, I think of his dribbling style and his ability which I'm sure he worked hard for, but the word out on him was always that he was just full of talent and didn't work quite as hard as he could be. He still managed to make an incredible impact his first season here without speaking the language or ever being the main threat on his team previously.
I know Cristiano's circumstances were vastly different coming into the team, especially the difference of quality in teammates, but I don't think he would have had a similar impact as Martial did in that 2015 United team. I think we both understand I'm not saying at all that Martial will ever come close to what Cristiano has achieved because the mentality is worlds apart and I think that's what elevated Cristiano above everything else, not his talent which IMO was not the kind of generational talent you saw in him in his early years. Ben Arfa, Neymar, and Benzema just to name a couple seemed far more talented at the same early stage of their careers, but some players figure it out better than others or simply work harder. Messi has clearly shown to be more dominant at an earlier age than Cristiano did, and yet CR7 managed to catch up to him on individual award. I know it's cliche that CR7 is this workhorse and that could suggest he's not as talented, but I don't think there's anything wrong with that; it's inspiring to see someone so driven that he managed to catch up to an 'all-time generational talent' like Messi.
Anyways, I think I've brought us far too off-topic, apologies to the thread. To bring it back on topic, I know Martial hasn't trained with France yesterday, doubt we'll see much of him against Colombia on Friday.
For me Ronaldo was a young talent but not an absolute wonderkid like a Rooney or a Messi. Martial is a talent like much Ronaldo.
I'm yet to see any young player come close to a young Rooney or Messi.
I'm yet to see any young player come close to a young Rooney or Messi.
Where do you put Mbappe?
May have been asked before, but is he in the French squad for this international week?
Ok then - you're completely off base. Shockingly so. Sanchez has had an awful half season with Arsenal in comparison to previous ones and even more questionable WCQ campaign with Chile. So really shouldn't be surprised he hasn't immediately fit in and sparkled
Talkin to a ghost, buddy.
Yeah, he wasn’t playing well for Arsenal or Chile anyway.
got reeled in to respond and then went back to see ensuing posts
I replied virtually the same thing as you almost verbatim , just 24 hours laterOh man haha I see.. I'm missing things left and right. To bed for me *wave*
Strange thing that one. Don't know how old you were when we acquired both, but the sentiment on my side had always been that Rooney was the world beater. In terms of what they showed at the same age, Rooney was more gifted, was putting in incredible shifts at the international level ( even before joining United ). Ronaldo, until 2007 was perceived as a talented show-pony, a very frustrating one at that.
It's interesting to hear that some people thought of him as being more naturally talented than Rooney back then. 2007 was when he truly arrived. Before that, he'd cost us goals from time to time. I vividly remember his days of losing the ball for no reason in the middle of the park against Arsenal.
The young Ronaldo was a talent who, if the stars aligned, might become as good as Giggs. A world class winger but never the best player in the world.
It wasn't anywhere in the cards that he'd be the best in the world, let alone one of the GOATs.
It wasn't anywhere in the cards that he'd be the best in the world, let alone one of the GOATs.
It's no surprise that our best patch of goal scoring came in a 3-5-2 with Martial/Lukaku up front, Lingard behind with Pogba breaking from midfield.
We really lack the wingbacks and ball playing defenders for it to be perfect, but we looked the most threatening/solid using that formation. It was great for away games but we sucked with it at home, as our defenders just stood there doing nothing all match.
That could still work given enough reps. It would require playing someone like Blind or Rojo in the back 3 to keep the ball circulating but we aren't getting there with Smalling or for that matter Valencia as a wing back.
I read somewhere about Mourinho accusing some of our attacking players of "hiding behind defenders" against Brighton, with reference to Mata and Martial. My initial response was that this was harsh on Martial as it's not his fault he started the game on the bench. I was shocked when I checked the line-up and realised he started the game. Has to be one of his least memorable performances ever? Can anyone remember anything he did during that match? Because I'm at a loss.
I'd see Jose go before Martial if I'm being honest.
Him and Mata playing 1-2s in Brighton’s box.
Yes! Good point. That was lovely. That's it, though. Otherwise completely anonymous.
The way he is drifting in constantly instead of doing take-ons from the flank seems more like tactical instruction to me than him doing it on his own. The one game I've watched him play for France he was doing what he did in his first season here, which was receive the ball facing up to the left back and breaking down the defense with footwork and trickery.
I think Jose's tactic on the other hand is to have the wingers come narrow, adding numbers in midfield and open up spaces for the full backs to overlap. Which might explain why he was apoplectic with Shaw not getting forward as much.
I think Jose's tactic on the other hand is to have the wingers come narrow, adding numbers in midfield and open up spaces for the full backs to overlap. Which might explain why he was apoplectic with Shaw not getting forward as much.
- Status