Haven't seen the stats but Rafa is better going forward, there's not much doubt about that in my view. The way he links up (with Herrera) and his intelligence is generally better than Valencia.
25
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 35
- Clean sheets
- 12
- Goals
- 0
- Assists
- 5
- Yellow cards
- 4
Dunno about that. It's certainly based on very little evidence. How many games have Rafael and Herrera played together?
It's funny actually, the one United player Rafael seems to have had the best understanding with is Valencia himself. Even when Valencia lost his mojo as an attacking force completely, his link up play with Rafael was very good. I wonder if thye'll ever play in the same team again?
*nods* our best right side the past 4-5 years have included the two of them from when Valencia was on form to the less adventurous safety first guy we've seen since 2012.
The QPR game there was fantastic chemistry between Rafa and Herrera.
Rafa's work is better off the ball than Valencia's and both Herrera and Rafa were looking to make both penetrative runs and ghost runs, not only creating space for each other but also dragging the opposition wide and creating space for Van Persie and Mata to operate around the area.
With that sort of panic and attention on that side of the field it in turn made space for Di Maria and Rooney to work the left channel with Daley Blind doing a good job of switching the play that day.
Again against West Ham they linked up well, this time Herrera would drift across their area as they were stretched by Rafa and he used the space to link well with Rooney around the area.
Valencia and Fellaini have been really solid on that side but it hasn't been nearly as dynamic.
I wouldn't say there was much understanding between Rafa and Valencia. Their understanding mainly involved one of them overlapping the other and whipping in a cross. Not bad (and effective at certain times) but nothing like the link up play Herrera and Rafa have shown. The sameple is is certainly a lot lesser though.
You're comparing one game against a very accommodating QPR team to several years including 2 titles with AV + Rafa... your sample size is possibly inadequate.
I'm comparing two games. The West Ham game was the second one of you read the whole post.
While it's still a small sample size there was a huge amount of positives to be taken from them.
It's all well and good citing the years Rafa and Valencia have played together but don't pretend they were all excellent. For 2 1/2 of those years Valencia was dreadful. Truely awful. Just because Rafael was the player to brin out the best in him doesn't mean it was good enough. Those two matches showed a real understanding between Herrera and Rafael and that's what Pogue was asking.
As you yourself just admitted there isn't enough evidence. Herrera never played wide right either - he was central right as the shuttler. The one game Valencia played that role (right after Herrera's back fracture) he had a good game. You have to compare apples to oranges. Herrera has never played as a right winger for us in the few months he's been here.
So I'm not sure why Rafael's understanding with Ander as a midfielder is being compared to that he has with Antonio as a winger.
And your definition of excellent is not the barometer. AV + Rafa were part of a solid right side. Annually as AV (for whatever reason, #7 vs #25, Moyes) became less adventurous, Rafael became more so and they were as effective as a pair - its a team game, and the only one who suffered for their combo was Nani (who played left or was injured on the bench.. or during Moyes reign ignored for Young wide left). The team benefited as the number of titles proves during the last 5 years.
Even at his worst, Valencia consistently linked up very well with his team mates. The frustration of fans was down to his poor final ball and general conservatism. When it came to intelligent link up play, he was consistently very good.
This sort of thing.
All the above from one of those "truely awful" seasons you refer to.
Absurdly small sample size aside, I don't see how a discussion about Rafael and Hererra linking up well together (compared to Fellaini and Valencia) is any use in comparing the attributes of the two full-backs. Not unless you can mention games where Valencia played ahead of Hererra and they failed as a partnership?
To be honest, I was just answering your question about how well Herrera and Rafael have linked up. It wasn't me that said it was better than Valencia and Rafael. However I stand by the fact that the only evidence we have, those two games, was highly encouraging. They were dynamic and as I said above, their linking up caused real panic in QPR and West Ham's defence.
I don't even think we're disagreeing! I would have Rafael as the better fullback, both going forwards and in defence. So in a hypothetical scenario where Valencia did play ahead of Hererra it's quite possible he might not look as dangerous as Rafael did.
I was just objecting to this statement "The way he links up (with Herrera) and his intelligence is generally better than Valencia". I think Rafael is a better dribbler, plays with more flair than Valencia and his final ball is better (over the last couple of seasons, anyway) so he's more of an attacking threat. When it comes to intelligence (in a footballing sense) there are few players smarter than Valencia and it's not one of the main adjectives I'd associate with Rafael, that's for sure!
Sorry I was thinking of Valencia ahead of Rafael vs Herrera ahead of Rafael rather than Rafael with Herrera ahead vs Valencia with Herrera ahead.
And that's unreadable but the jist is there.
Valencia's football intelligence is practically zero or has been for the last 2 and bit seasons. Unless repeatedly trying to break a full back's legs is called intelligence.
Anyway, Pexbo summed it up better. Intelligence was probably the wrong word on my part. The link up between Rafa and Valencia was bog standard link up play between a full back and winger and usually maksed how shite Valencia was. Herrera and Rafael have shown a lot more so far ansd could do a lot better given a run together. However, one is always injured and the other will probably end up in jail so this conversation is probably pointless.
Obviously, there's more to being an intelligent footballer than the choice of final ball. You're wrong about "bog standard" too but meh, opinions.
it really is!Whike it was still only two games, I think there was a lot more guile in the play between Rafa and Herrera than we see from Valencia.
Valencia is very simple in his link up play in that it consists of one twos or passes down the line.
I'll try and find Herrera's highlights from the QPR and WHU games as you'll see what I mean.
The difference between the two is that Herrera is not afraid to commit to a run that will take himself out of position and even out of the play whereas Valencia's is much more conservative and measured. He's more calculated and plays the percentages well which is probably what Pogue is referring to when he notes his intelligence. The fact is that it's almost impossible to think of a time where Valencia has left his fullback exposed. When Rafael plays with Valencia it's Rafael that is more often then not on the overlap exploiting space whereas in the games with Herrera, it was Herrera who was happy to make the run wide from a more central position (as he's a RCM not a RW) and carry a player or two with him and in turn open the inside channel up for Rafael.
On the flip side, Herrera was also happy to start from a wider position and then play the one two with Rafael before carrying the ball centrally right across the area.
But again I'm comparing Herrera the RCM with Valencia the RWB/RW which isn't what we are currently talking about.
Valencia is very simple in his link up play in that it consists of one twos or passes down the line.
I'll try and find Herrera's highlights from the QPR and WHU games as you'll see what I mean.
The difference between the two is that Herrera is not afraid to commit to a run that will take himself out of position and even out of the play whereas Valencia's is much more conservative and measured. He's more calculated and plays the percentages well which is probably what Pogue is referring to when he notes his intelligence. The fact is that it's almost impossible to think of a time where Valencia has left his fullback exposed. When Rafael plays with Valencia it's Rafael that is more often then not on the overlap exploiting space whereas in the games with Herrera, it was Herrera who was happy to make the run wide from a more central position (as he's a RCM not a RW) and carry a player or two with him and in turn open the inside channel up for Rafael.
On the flip side, Herrera was also happy to start from a wider position and then play the one two with Rafael before carrying the ball centrally right across the area.
But again I'm comparing Herrera the RCM with Valencia the RWB/RW which isn't what we are currently talking about.
I for one am not surprised at all that Valencia is shining in his current role. He has all of the attributes to naturally be one of the best right (wing) backs in the world. Speed, power, strength, discipline and a great work ethic. His experience and even the negative of his creative limitations are bonuses for the role now too. The job of a right back is to support, do simple things well, overlap and be an option for an attack. He does this all day long.
It's all a bit apples and oranges because we're comparing players with different team-mates, as well as playing in different formations.
If you're playing as a full-back ahead of a conventional winger the play will end up a bit more stretched and there's more spaces to run into. Plus you're much more likely to have a man advantage at any moment.
As a wing back, in a 352 you are much less likely to have a man advantage. There's more one v ones (e.g. vs Joe Allen) but less opportunity to over-lap and be slipped clean through by a midfielder.
Rafael's never (I think?) played as wing-back so we don't know how well he'd cope in the same scenario. Valencia has played as a full-back in a back four in previous seasons but wasn't very good at all. Although it was a completely unfamiliar position at the time.
So yeah, the comparison is pointless. Valencia is clearly a very intelligent footballer, though. The type of player Rafael would enjoy playing ahead of, particularly because he has the freedom to maraud forwards in the knowledge that Valencia has got his back. That's why they have always looked like a decent partnership, even when Valencia forgot how to be a winger and all the quality attacking play down our right came from Rafael.
Where we really looked awful, in the last couple of seasons, was when Valencia was playing ahead of Jones or Smalling. That just did not work, on any level.
Interestingly, for years Valencia was only in the side to play as "backup" for Nani on the right wing. Now Valencia is playing "backup" for Rafael as wingback.
I wouldn't want Valencia as my backup.
I wouldn't want Valencia as my backup.
that's far from true.
Aston Villa 1:1 Man Utd
Why does he keep turning back and passing backwards?
The one time he had a real good go we looked dangerous. Does my fecking head in because he's clearly still capable of it.
The one time he had a real good go we looked dangerous. Does my fecking head in because he's clearly still capable of it.
Honestly wont mind if he loses the ball or smashes it into someones feet. Would rather he do that than pass the ball backwards/sideways. We have two strikers that live off crosses. If he can get 1 out of 5 of them into the box we will score.
Thought he was alright today, Young was more dangerous on the other flank but he put in some decent deliveries. Still passes back too much and should take on the full back more, but when he did he was OK.
Burst past a defender, stops, then dribbles it back a bit and passes it backwards. Did that quite a bit, though he wasn't too bad. Created a few dangerous crosses here and there.
Only saw the 2nd half, thought he was doing fine and shouldn't have been brought off.
Apart from a fairly short spell, I don't think that was ever true?
Nani played out left most of the time.
As soon as ADM came on he just passed it him. Shame as he did well before that. Poor mentality.
His predictability is almost lol worthy at times. It's just the same thing over and over, rinse and repeat. He needs to be shipped on.
His team mates love him though.
I actually find this worrying
He was quite decent today. I was looking forward to a couple of Agbonlahor vs Valencia runs, but that never happened. He's still little timid going forwards, although he did beat his fullback quite a few times today, looks to be a little sharper off the line again. What bugs me is that he seems to have this idea that he shall not lose a race, and therefore he doesn't take on his man unless he knows he has him beaten. Several times today he was on a one on one against Sissoko. He could have tried and possibly gone past him, or he could have been stopped. Hazard, Bale, Ronaldo, Robben etc etc all lose the ball because they are stopped. Valencia isn't close to their level, so another reason why I wouldn't mind at all if he lost the ball at times in those situations. Just go for it Tony!
Fact is though, the wingback are ridiculously isolated on the wing. There are no overlaps - I think Valencia got one, but didn't use it. A few times, Young was isolated against three Villa players, and then they were down a man. Valencia usually had at least two men on him, left fighting for himself really. No wonder he chooses the backpass. Young was more lucky in that his fullback was so slow that he could just run past him (that was a yellow for the tackle when Young got his assist)
AS soon as he went off we lost all balance - individually he hasn't been very brilliant for about 3 years except in instances/games hereand there (eg Liverpool 2 years ago, chelsea the same season, earlier this season when eh was the RCM shuttler when herrera's back was damaged) but his contribution to the team dynamic is apparent especially w/o Rafael. If he had stayed on it would have allowed AY to stay left and keep terrorizing Luton. Reckon LvG was trying to give him and RvP some rest when it looked as if we had the upper hand with the man advantage - it backfired.
- it's only since Moyes that Valencia has been played so often as a RB and now RWB by van Gaal. Fergie used him there only in emergencies and alternated between him Jones & Smalling.
Also Rafael has rarely played as a wingback for us - it's a different position than a rightback, though he does have the attributes to do it well either way.
Where do these fans come from who don't actually watch most of our games? For years Valencia has been the starting RW and Nani was either on the LW or benched (since his injuries and Young's arrival)
- it's only since Moyes that Valencia has been played so often as a RB and now RWB by van Gaal. Fergie used him there only in emergencies and alternated between him Jones & Smalling.Also Rafael has rarely played as a wingback for us - it's a different position than a rightback, though he does have the attributes to do it well either way.
What the hell? He was very good yesterday and taking him and RVP off cost us all 3 points. People see what they want to see.
I think he was only taken off so we had more bodies up top and you wouldn't have taken Young off the way he was performing.
LOL - been watching almost every match and reading the Caf for the past 5 years.Where do these fans come from who don't actually watch most of our games? For years Valencia has been the starting RW and Nani was either on the LW or benched (since his injuries and Young's arrival)
Also Rafael has rarely played as a wingback for us - it's a different position than a rightback, though he does have the attributes to do it well either way.
If you recall at first Valencia was coming on as a sub for Nani until he won the starting role through his performances, after which Nani was either benched, injured, and sometimes but not very often played on the left. It was during his lengthy injury spells that the Valencia thread was full of posters claiming that he was doing a job as backup until Nani's return. But even when he returned he was usually on the bench with Young, Kagawa, Giggs or even Welbeck sometimes taking the left side of midfield.
I liked Nani and Rafael but they are similar in that they are mercurial and hot-headed. They can make mental mistakes that cost you a match. For all of Tony's predictability and conservatism, managers from SAF to Moyes to LvG seem to trust him because his workrate and discipline allows the more creative players to express themselves.
This is the first time I saw someone defending Valencia by claiming he was back up for Nani.
you're literally arguing against the point you first made here.
Was feeling his oats today, even had a shot.