[Verminator]

I'm not really ignoring any positives hence why I clearly stated that he has had some good games. I think you may just be ignoring the fact that even in some of the games where he got a goal or an assist, he has actually been quite poor. He has indeed had some effective games, but he has also had ineffective games.

Not funny I mentioned Rooney at all. There was no character traits being compared; merely the fact that Lingard certainly isn't the only one that has had ineffective games. Here's another one that has had plenty, Mata (still has 18 goals and assists combined but I have no problem saying that he has often been ineffective). I don't know, I'm starting to think that we maybe have different definitions of the word. It just seems that some are very touchy when anyone dares to question Lingard.

The lad has done an ok job since coming in and he is probably somewhat playing on merit given the dire form of others in his position. But personally, I think we need a massive upgrade in quality on Lingard. He's 23 now and has yet to really do anything of note. Even in the Championship, during several loan spells, he has failed to really stand-out. Cleverley looked an absolute star on loan at Watford when he was 18/19 and look how that turned out. The fact that Lingard failed to do much apart from his four goal debut for Birmingham leaves a-lot to be desired.

I just think that he fails to beat his man far too often and concedes possession on a very regular basis. Yes, he has come up with some nice goals but those momets have been overshadowed by poor all-round play (especially in an attcking sense). Defensively, he has been decent enough and he works hard. I wouldn't mind him staying as a squad player for another season, anyway. As realistically we won't get much for him, he hasn't got an ego and he will be happy to be a squad player. He doesn't convince me at all as a winger as I feel he has far too many shortcomings for that position, he might be better suited as a number ten.

Thanks for that we'll reasoned response. Doesn't mean I agree with it all though.

I think we do have a different understanding of the term effective, because I see it as positively influencing the scoreline, and in those terms, I think he has satisfied the criteria.
He does have his limitations and it would be fair to say we should have a better option on the right wing.
That said, right wing would not be his preferred position.
Jesse is a left sided or central forward / attacking midfielder. So he is doing OK in an unfavored position.

Mata is in the team for the same reason. No one offers the same output in that role, despite his obvious shortcomings.

Cleverly doesn't need mentioning here, anymore than Pogba, so forget that.

Jesse is likely to be a squad player, but one that can cover any of the front 6 slots with varying success.
SO I'm happy for him now but expect him to be demoted if we ever get our wide positions sorted, and get a mobile replacement for Mata.

 

[SSSSnake]

You left out the fact that he has virtually none of the attributes needed to be a top wide player. Cannot beat a man, Cannot cross a ball and very limited passing ability (unless you count passing backwards or sideways, but if that's the case then Cleverly is the new Xavi).

Didn't he beat his man yesterday on a few occasions? And I guess we'll just forget those assist/ crosses his created aginst Arsenal

Ok, so tell me out the of the 25 games he has played this season, How many can you honestly say he has played well in? And just popping up with a goal and doing chuff all else doesn't count.

What players do you know have came into an 'elite' team at 23 and gone on to be a top class player? There isn't too many.

1- Materazzi - Made his seria A debut at 24 and didn't make his first international debut until 28. Ended up winning Seria A 5 times and won a world cup.

2- Ole Gunner Solskajaer- Didn't make the top tier in Norway until he was 22 and joined United a year later. Enough said.

3- Les Ferdinand- Made his premier league debut at 23 for QPR. Ended up scoring 149 league goals with his best season tally when he was 30.

4- Drogba- I don't really have to comment on this one.

5- Di Natalie- didn't really blossom until 27, yet he's having the best year scoring 14 goals at the age of 37.

6- Ian Wright- Didn't make his England debut until 28 when he signed for Arsenal

7- Klose- Made it at the age of 23. Now he's the record goal scorer in the World Cup finals.

8- Luca Toni- Was playing Serie B football at 26.

I could go on all day

 

[Born2Lose]

Same shit, different day.

Like your posts in this thread.

 

[Verminator]

Didn't he beat his man yesterday on a few occasions? And I guess we'll just forget those assist/ crosses his created aginst Arsenal


1- Materazzi - Made his seria A debut at 24 and didn't make his first international debut until 28. Ended up winning Seria A 5 times and won a world cup.

2- Ole Gunner Solskajaer- Didn't make the top tier in Norway until he was 22 and joined United a year later. Enough said.

3- Les Ferdinand- Made his premier league debut at 23 for QPR. Ended up scoring 149 league goals with his best season tally when he was 30.

4- Drogba- I don't really have to comment on this one.

5- Di Natalie- didn't really blossom until 27, yet he's having the best year scoring 14 goals at the age of 37.

6- Ian Wright- Didn't make his England debut until 28 when he signed for Arsenal

7- Klose- Made it at the age of 23. Now he's the record goal scorer in the World Cup finals.

8- Luca Toni- Was playing Serie B football at 26.

I could go on all day

Some list that @SSSSnake
Not forgetting the Prem's record goalscorer Alan Shearer who scored 23 goals up until he signed for Blackburn aged 22.

 

[SSSSnake]

How the heck did I forget Alan Shearer?
I was tempted to add Jamie Vardy (29) but we'll wait to see how the season ends. Hopefully he'll have a winners medal come May.

 

[JoaquinJoaquin]

Like your posts in this thread.

Sorry, Who are you?

 

[Verminator]

As you said, it isn't an exhaustive list.
I wonder how many of those lost a season to serious injury to?
indeed. Come on Leicester!

 

[Golden Nugget]

Didn't he beat his man yesterday on a few occasions? And I guess we'll just forget those assist/ crosses his created aginst Arsenal


1- Materazzi - Made his seria A debut at 24 and didn't make his first international debut until 28. Ended up winning Seria A 5 times and won a world cup.

2- Ole Gunner Solskajaer- Didn't make the top tier in Norway until he was 22 and joined United a year later. Enough said.

3- Les Ferdinand- Made his premier league debut at 23 for QPR. Ended up scoring 149 league goals with his best season tally when he was 30.

4- Drogba- I don't really have to comment on this one.

5- Di Natalie- didn't really blossom until 27, yet he's having the best year scoring 14 goals at the age of 37.

6- Ian Wright- Didn't make his England debut until 28 when he signed for Arsenal

7- Klose- Made it at the age of 23. Now he's the record goal scorer in the World Cup finals.

8- Luca Toni- Was playing Serie B football at 26.

I could go on all day

Brilliant list. I'm sick of people thinking that players like Lingard are too old to make it.

 

[JoaquinJoaquin]

1- Materazzi - Made his seria A debut at 24 and didn't make his first international debut until 28. Ended up winning Seria A 5 times and won a world cup.

2- Ole Gunner Solskajaer- Didn't make the top tier in Norway until he was 22 and joined United a year later. Enough said.

3- Les Ferdinand- Made his premier league debut at 23 for QPR. Ended up scoring 149 league goals with his best season tally when he was 30.

4- Drogba- I don't really have to comment on this one.

5- Di Natalie- didn't really blossom until 27, yet he's having the best year scoring 14 goals at the age of 37.

6- Ian Wright- Didn't make his England debut until 28 when he signed for Arsenal

7- Klose- Made it at the age of 23. Now he's the record goal scorer in the World Cup finals.

8- Luca Toni- Was playing Serie B football at 26.

I could go on all day

1 - The same guy who had a disaster spell at Everton and only ever actually seemed like a good defender for 2-3 years? Ok good start..

2 - Give you that one

3 - Ferdinand was a good player, Not top calibre, But a serviceable striker, OK.

4 - Yes

5 - Big fish in a small pond, Never tested himself outside of Udinese. Credit to him for Benjamin Button transformation though.

6, 7 & 8 - Ok.

So you named 6 players which I bet you have had to scour Wikipedia for. I'm sure we could debate this all day but we are going to derail the topic so I'll leave it there.

 

[Shamwow]

These threads get a bit tiring with the same people posting the same negative stuff every single game no matter how he plays.

 

[SSSSnake]

1 - The same guy who had a disaster spell at Everton and only ever actually seemed like a good defender for 2-3 years? Ok good start..

2 - Give you that one

3 - Ferdinand was a good player, Not top calibre, But a serviceable striker, OK.

4 - Yes

5 - Big fish in a small pond, Never tested himself outside of Udinese. Credit to him for Benjamin Button transformation though.

6, 7 & 8 - Ok.

So you named 6 players which I bet you have had to scour Wikipedia for. I'm sure we could debate this all day but we are going to derail the topic so I'll leave it there.

Materazzi has 5 league title and a world cup. If you call that a disaster career then I can now understand your mentality towards Lingard.

But the point being there are several late bloomers so we can't rule out Jese's development completely.

 

[JoaquinJoaquin]

Materazzi has 5 league title and a world cup. If you call that a disaster career then I can now understand your mentality towards Lingard.

But the point being there are several late bloomers so we can't rule out Jese's development completely.

You are putting words in my mouth though, I never said Materazzi had a 'disaster career', I said he had a disaster at Everton and only looked like a truly good defender for a maximum of 3 years which I believe as I watched alot of Inter.

I'm not ruling out Lingard completely, I said that he probably won't develop much more as a player which I stand by. I feel like I'm spending too much time in this thread and don't like to criticize, so I guess time is going to tell with this guy. But when he is playing in the upper realms of the Championship in a few years I won't be surprised at all.

 

[Amar__]

1 - The same guy who had a disaster spell at Everton and only ever actually seemed like a good defender for 2-3 years? Ok good start..

2 - Give you that one

3 - Ferdinand was a good player, Not top calibre, But a serviceable striker, OK.

4 - Yes

5 - Big fish in a small pond, Never tested himself outside of Udinese. Credit to him for Benjamin Button transformation though.

6, 7 & 8 - Ok.

So you named 6 players which I bet you have had to scour Wikipedia for. I'm sure we could debate this all day but we are going to derail the topic so I'll leave it there.

So you think those players aren't good enough for us either? Only players that have potential like Neymar are good enough apparently.

If half of our players were good as those we would be champions already.

 

[JoaquinJoaquin]

So you think those players aren't good enough for us either? Only players that have potential like Neymar are good enough apparently.

If half of our players were good as those we would be champions already.

When did I say that?

But if you want to be a smart arse, Then I don't think Prime Materazzi was good enough no, Les Ferdinand wasn't, Di Natale arguably wasn't (isn't), Toni maybe, and would Klose have worked here? That's questionable. So that leaves 3 of them players that were good enough IMO.

 

[Amar__]

When did I say that?

But if you want to be a smart arse, Then I don't think Prime Materazzi was good enough no, Les Ferdinand wasn't, Di Natale arguably wasn't (isn't), Toni maybe, and would Klose have worked here? That's questionable. So that leaves 3 of them players that were good enough IMO.

You just did.

 

[JoaquinJoaquin]

You just did.

Prior to me proving a point because you were making things up. Feels like i'm having a discussion with a 12 year old so i'll leave it there with you. At least some of the Jesse fans in here can have a reasonable discussion, For as much as me and @SSSSnake disagree for example, at least it's fun.

 

[Amar__]

Prior to me proving a point because you were making things up. Feels like i'm having a discussion with a 12 year old so i'll leave it there with you. At least some of the Jesse fans in here can have a reasonable discussion, For as much as me and @SSSSnake disagree for example, at least it's fun.

You have criticised him in at least 10 posts since yesterday, and other players you have criticised since yesterday are just Carrick and Blind, and those two were by far our worst players. Lingard was our third best easily. You have posted in Darmian and Depay's thread too, but you weren't criticising them, you were actually defending Depay despite him costing us 30m or whatever and looking disinterested for majority of the season, including yesterday, but yet Lingard is the one who deserves criticism in your opinion. And let's not forget that he plays out of position most of the time. But yeah let's blame Lingard because he is 23.

Today you are arguing that even if he becomes as good as the likes of di Natale, Klose, that that isn't good enough.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

You have criticised him in at least 10 posts since yesterday, and other players you have criticised since yesterday are just Carrick and Blind, and those two were by far our worst players. Lingard was our third best easily. You have posted in Darmian and Depay's thread too, but you weren't criticising them, you were actually defending Depay despite him costing us 30m or whatever and looking disinterested for majority of the season, including yesterday, but yet Lingard is the one who deserves criticism in your opinion. And let's not forget that he plays out of position most of the time. But yeah let's blame Lingard because he is 23.

Today you are arguing that even if he becomes as good as the likes of di Natale, Klose, that that isn't good enough.

I'd prefer to say our 9th worst....

 

[SSSSnake]

I really thought Materazzi was a good player mate. Ever since he joined Inter. That spell when Inter were dominating from 2006-2010 he was a key player especially in that winning world cup team. We really have different views on players.

 

[JoaquinJoaquin]

You have criticised him in at least 10 posts since yesterday, and other players you have criticised since yesterday are just Carrick and Blind, and those two were by far our worst players. Lingard was our third best easily. You have posted in Darmian and Depay's thread too, but you weren't criticising them, you were actually defending Depay despite him costing us 30m or whatever and looking disinterested for majority of the season, including yesterday, but yet Lingard is the one who deserves criticism in your opinion. And let's not forget that he plays out of position most of the time. But yeah let's blame Lingard because he is 23.
.

Being 3rd best player on a team that loses to Tony Pulis's West Brom isn't much of an achievement is it? I think in all honesty the only player that could of walked away from that game happy with their performance yesterday was Smalling, and maybe Martial if we are clutching straws. After that I don't think there was a 'third best' because everyone else was crap. I criticise Lingard alot because he is just so average it is frustrating, It has shades of Richardson and Cleverly written all over it yet he seems to be one of the first names on the teamsheet which is absurd.

I wasn't defending Memphis, I criticised Van Gaal's management of him, which I think has been poor on the most part. But hey most of the things he has done since he became manager has been poor and that's why he needs to go at the end of the season.

 

[JoaquinJoaquin]

I really thought Materazzi was a good player mate. Ever since he joined Inter. That spell when Inter were dominating from 2006-2010 he was a key player especially in that winning world cup team. We really have different views on players.

That's fair enough, Different opinions. I always felt with Materazzi is that he was a mistake waiting to happen whether it was a rash challenge or a red card. He did have some good years though, I felt Mourinho really got the best out of him and I would like to think he could do similar with some players here if he comes in.

 

[Amar__]

Being 3rd best player on a team that loses to Tony Pulis's West Brom isn't much of an achievement is it? I think in all honesty the only player that could of walked away from that game happy with their performance yesterday was Smalling, and maybe Martial if we are clutching straws. After that I don't think there was a 'third best' because everyone else was crap. I criticise Lingard alot because he is just so average it is frustrating, It has shades of Richardson and Cleverly written all over it yet he seems to be one of the first names on the teamsheet which is absurd.

I wasn't defending Memphis, I criticised Van Gaal's management of him, which I think has been poor on the most part. But hey most of the things he has done since he became manager has been poor and that's why he needs to go at the end of the season.

It's not his fault that we have no one else. I know that he shouldn't be a first choice but only if we had better players, but if he is playing better than others in his position then he should play. Also, as I said earlier, he is playing out of position most of the time, he isn't right winger at all, out of three he can play I would say that's the one that he hates the most so he deserves more sympathy than someone like Memphis who looks like he couldn't care less about the team more often than not.

As for the Tony Pulis side argument, I don't know why are you ignoring the fact that we were playing with ten men, not even more talented players like Martial could do anything special.

 

[dichinero]

Brilliant list. I'm sick of people thinking that players like Lingard are too old to make it.

Some people are just angry that they are too old to hack it.

 

[Bojan11]

Kills every attack when he gets the ball.

 

[Mister_Stubbs]

Guy isn't even premier league level let alone Man Utd level.

 

[Lawman]

He reminds me of how Fletcher used to be on the right wing but not as good!

 

[Lawman]

Brilliant list. I'm sick of people thinking that players like Lingard are too old to make it.

Feck his age (that gives him leaway if your a teenager) but with Lingard its his ability people are questioning!

 

[wiz4231]

Garbage

 

[#07]

Think people are being far too harsh on Lingard. He has had some very quiet games recently, today was not one of them though. He really ran at the West Ham back line in the second half, during a period when not much was happening down our left. I thought it lifted the team and got Varela and Herrera back into the game. He is not the second coming of David Beckham but he did a really decent job today, and covered back a lot to boot.

 

[Devil may care]

I'm one of Lingard's "defenders" but I thought he was very mediocre today.

 

[Globule]

Someone else described him as passive. That really is the best word for him. He always seem so reluctant to take on his man - the complete opposite of Martial on the other wing. Still, if it's a choice between him and Depay, I'll allow it.

 

[Dobbs]

We've been playing without a right hand side all season. It's a very weird handicap to self impose.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Just plain average.

He's not good enough. But he's not the only one tbf to him.

 

[Bojan11]

Rather put Valencia back on the wings alongside Valera.

Lingard is one of the reasons the club is struggling. Putting up mediocre players from the academy because it is the United way.

 

[Norris]

I agree that he hasn't been good for a couple of games, but I think he was better today. Most of our attacks in the second half came from that side. It helped that Herera made so many overalapping runs.

 

[Robbie Boy]

Average.

 

[Adisa]

I find it very hard to criticize him. He's a player that is playing way above his posts.

 

[FromTheBench]

Rather put Valencia back on the wings alongside Valera.

Lingard is one of the reasons the club is struggling. Putting up mediocre players from the academy because it is the United way.

Nah, it's LVG's way of picking Lingard's and Weir's over Januzaj, Pereira and Wilson's.

 

[eggwithsideburns]

Its a position that clearly needs upgrading. Its like having Tom Cleverley playing right wing or something, what does he offer really apart from the very minimum? He needs to be doing a lot more.

 

[Americano]

Someone else described him as passive. That really is the best word for him. He always seem so reluctant to take on his man - the complete opposite of Martial on the other wing. Still, if it's a choice between him and Depay, I'll allow it.

How much of that is Lingard and how much of that is Van Gaal? I would say the fact that Lingard is picked consistently means that he does what the manager asks. So I'm hoping that the limitations are from the manager and not the player. But Jesse has been underwhelming at times.